Bruckner good, Mahler boring?

[Sergeant Rock]

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days now, and I feel that's too simplistic.  Elgar's music has quality, no question about it, and complexity, despite Bonehelm's evaluation.  But what I miss in most of Elgar, except for the Cello Concerto, is the total honesty of a Bruckner or a Mahler, an honesty that reaches to both the darkest and the brightest emotions, the depths and heights of human passions.

And that's what I hear in much of Elgar's music. It's what grabbed me the first time I heard Enigma.

And as I said before, I could be wrong; I missed it for a while in Haydn.

Try Elgar's string quartet, coincidentally (or not) also in E minor.

Or try the Second Symphony, especially when conducted the way Sinopoli does it...with the emphasis on the darkness even in the opening pages.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

To the extent a "top 10" list comprises 300 entries, then Elgar is a top 10 composer for me as well .......

Yes, my Top 300 are equal in my mind...but some are more equal than others 

Sarge

[71 dB]

Keep lying to yourself, Elgar's nothing compared to Bruckner or Mahler in terms of complexity. That's what 99% of the world's music scholars will tell you. At least I trust Karl (who got a doctoral degree in music) on this. If he thinks Elgar is simple, no one should argue with him.

Btw you don't even have a music education. At least I do.

I think people with musical education can't think "out of the box". I can because I am self-educated in music. As I have said my ears have been educated by complex electronic music. There are scholars who say Elgar is sophisticated.

[71 dB]

i would say that, too.
(although i haven't heard that much, i can tell, reading through an Elgar score isn't as hard as Bruckner and defintely not as hard as Mahler)
he doesn't use as large of an orchestra.... but i wouldn't call his music 'simple' all the time

What have you read? Elgar's miniatures like Minuet, Op 21? Yeah, that's maybe not as complex as Mahler's or Bruckners symphonies. 

Have you read the score of The Apostles? I suppose nobody finds that small or simple.

[BachQ]

I think people with musical education can't think "out of the box". I can because I am self-educated in music.

Besides:

71 dB is GMG's resident FREE THINKER

[karlhenning]

They just don't make boxes as small as Poju's anymore.

[karlhenning]

Have you read the score of The Apostles? I suppose nobody finds that small or simple.

More like bloated & whiny.

[karlhenning]

To get back to topic, I will listen to any Bruckner or Mahler symphony, anytime, and twice, rather than listen to The Apostles again.

That is my pledge!

[BachQ]

There are scholars who say Elgar is sophisticated.

Would you post those links again, please?  I could use a really good belly laugh ........

[BachQ]

I am self-educated in music. As I have said my ears have been educated by complex electronic music.

(a freethinking background very well suited for tapping into multidimensional vibrational fields)

[karlhenning]

self-educated in music

I couldn't possibly comment.

No, no, I couldn't.

[BachQ]

I couldn't possibly comment.

No, no, I couldn't.

Karl, our musical education clearly hampers our respective abilities to think outside the box .......  If only we were as uneducated as Poju ......... to thereby live as freethinkers ..........

[karlhenning]

Ah, if only . . . .

[Larry Rinkel]

I think people with musical education can't think "out of the box". I can because I am self-educated in music. As I have said my ears have been educated by complex electronic music. There are scholars who say Elgar is sophisticated.

If people with musical education can't think out of the box, how can there be scholars who say Elgar is sophisticated? Truly, your post defeats itself in contraidictions.

[BachQ]

If people with musical education can't think out of the box, how can there be scholars who say Elgar is sophisticated?

Poju is referring to scholars who are selfeducated ........

[71 dB]

Would you post those links again, please?  I could use a really good belly laugh ........

QUOTES:

For example Vaughan Williams said: "Elgar's works are imperishable monuments."

Sir Henry Wood said: "Elgar was a mighty figure. His is among the finest music ever written."

Hans Richter said of the 1st symphony: "Gentlemen, let us now rehearse the greatest symphony of modern times, written by the greatest modern composer - and not only this country."

August Jaeger said of the slow movement of the 1st symphony: "It's not only one of the very greatest slow movements since Beethoven, but I consider it worthy of that master."

Eric Blom said: "Elgar's music possesses a very personal style, which is permeated by a very wide range of European influences: "His melody is reminiscent of Tchaikovsky, his spirituality of Franck; he possesses Beethoven's greatness and Brahms' distance...his masterly craft is reminiscent of Berlioz."

Dr. Percy Young in his book Elgar O.M.: "Elgar wrote great works. He also wrote works which, though outside the range of accepted greatness, have compelled the attention and affection of a nation. It must not be overlooked that it requires rather more than talent to achieve what Chesterton described as tremendous trifles."

[71 dB]

If people with musical education can't think out of the box, how can there be scholars who say Elgar is sophisticated? Truly, your post defeats itself in contraidictions.

There are open-minded people who are free-thinkers and aren't brainwashed during the education.

[Don]

I just finished reading the last three pages of this thread, and it strikes me that Elgar has been dumped on extensively for at least the past month.  That's not reasonable.  One last thing - I'm very confident that Elgar would not utter the stupid comments coming from 71 dB.

Concerning Dittersdorf, I don't think his music is "no good"; it's just not very good.

[johnQpublic]

My box is very comfy with a lounge chair and a plasma TV, making me very much at ease when I need to think.

[Larry Rinkel]

There are open-minded people who are free-thinkers and aren't brainwashed during the education.

Could you describe this brainwashing process, please? How does one know one has been brainwashed, or has escaped brainwashing?