Bruckner good, Mahler boring?

Started by 12tone., October 28, 2007, 07:44:26 PM

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karlhenning

Quote from: 71 dB on October 31, 2007, 04:01:02 AM
Brainwashing is a everyday threat

You should really get out more, fella.

Larry Rinkel

Quote from: 71 dB on October 31, 2007, 04:01:02 AM
Brainwashing is a everyday threat and I try my best to fight against it. I hope I am not badly brainwashed. People who think Elgar is unimportant are irrational and brainwashed. Elgar put England back to the musical map. Unimportant?

We all are missing a lot of great stuff because life it too short. What I am not missing is Mahler and Bruckner. I listen to them too and that's the reason I can say Elgar was better than these two composers (and Bruckner is better than Mahler). All three composers were masterful and their music is not boring.

Elgar is certainly not junk; he is an important composer who has written some extraordinary works. Mr. Bonehelm exaggerates considerably. But once again Jochanaan, if you return to his post on the subject, has put his finger on the root cause on Elgar's relatively lower stature compared to Mahler and Bruckner.

karlhenning

Quote from: 71 dB on October 31, 2007, 04:01:02 AM
People who think Elgar is unimportant are irrational and brainwashed. Elgar put England back to the musical map. Unimportant?

You're drinking out of the toilet on this one, buddy.  No one here denies Elgar's importance in English music.

So who has brainwashed you into this state of paranoiac concern about these imaginary beings who think that Elgar is junk, hmmm?

71 dB

Quote from: karlhenning on October 31, 2007, 04:21:56 AM
So who has brainwashed you into this state of paranoiac concern about these imaginary beings who think that Elgar is junk, hmmm?

Bonehelm wrote Elgar is an unimportant composer. Isn't that the same as being junk?

I am paranoiac about this, I don't deny that. My message is that Elgar is above Mahler and Bruckner. For reasons I don't fully understand people keep saying the opposite. Somehow I get significantly greater kicks out of Elgar's music.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW July 2025 "Liminal Feelings"

Cato

Quote from: 71 dB on October 31, 2007, 04:47:36 AM
Bonehelm wrote Elgar is an unimportant composer. Isn't that the same as being junk?

I am paranoiac about this, I don't deny that. My message is that Elgar is above Mahler and Bruckner. For reasons I don't fully understand people keep saying the opposite. Somehow I get significantly greater kicks out of Elgar's music.

Accept, therefore, that yours is a minority view, breathe deeply, and watch the sun rise!
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

longears

Quote from: 71 dB on October 31, 2007, 04:47:36 AM
My message is that Elgar is above Mahler and Bruckner.
False and your insistence on this absolute ranking of value is boneheaded.

QuoteFor reasons I don't fully understand people keep saying the opposite.
True.  You don't understand.  If you're capable of rational thought, then seek help learning so that you will understand.

QuoteSomehow I get significantly greater kicks out of Elgar's music.
Apparently true.  No one would argue with this.  It's when you claim that your subjective experience determines absolute Truth that you appear to be nuts.

Cato

Who says Pink Harp no longer haunts the Forum?
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Larry Rinkel

Quote from: 71 dB on October 31, 2007, 04:47:36 AM
Bonehelm wrote Elgar is an unimportant composer. Isn't that the same as being junk?

Some junk is more important than other junk.

71 dB

Quote from: Cato on October 31, 2007, 05:01:46 AM
Accept, therefore, that yours is a minority view, breathe deeply, and watch the sun rise!

Minorities are often right. It just takes time before the truth becomes accepted among the majority.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW July 2025 "Liminal Feelings"

Larry Rinkel

Quote from: 71 dB on October 31, 2007, 05:29:41 AM
Minorities are often right. It just takes time before the truth becomes accepted among the majority.

Majorities are often right too. The reason the music of Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, and others has been widely adopted is that a majority of musically aware people recognized its superior quality.

karlhenning

Quote from: 71 dB on October 31, 2007, 05:29:41 AM
Minorities are often right.

Not you, though.  You're just orbiting Pluto.

Cato

Quote from: 71 dB on October 31, 2007, 05:29:41 AM
Minorities are often right. It just takes time before the truth becomes accepted among the majority.

I never said minorities were often wrong: Ibsen's character claims in An Enemy of the People that the majority is always wrong, but all that is overstated.

Minorities are occasionally right.

Beware the infection of creeping Pink-Harpism!
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Renfield on October 30, 2007, 06:32:43 PM
But anyhow, I shouldn't talk: I'm the chipmunk-simple person who finds Elgar's music touching, and not at all bland. I also love Mahler, and Bruckner fascinates me to no end!

Same here. I'm another simpleton, I guess.

Quote from: Renfield on October 30, 2007, 06:32:43 PM
What a happy life I lead... :D

Indeed...the sun is shining brightly today; I'm listening to great music....life is teletubbian  :D

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Keemun

What I find incredible about this thread is the fact that 71 db managed to hijack it into an Elgar discussion with this:

Quote from: 71 dB on October 29, 2007, 05:42:10 AM
Mahler good
Bruckner better
Elgar best 

;D

This, however, seems to be the root of the problem:

Quote from: 71 dB on October 30, 2007, 02:56:06 AM
Damn it's frustrating to promote Elgar...  :P

If 71 db wasn't on a crusade to promote Elgar's perceived greatness in threads where it does not belong, we'd still be having a nice discussion about Bruckner and Mahler.  :( 
Music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life. - Ludwig van Beethoven

greg

Quote from: MahlerTitan on October 30, 2007, 09:45:03 PM
When i was back in high school, I was enrolled in a special program, that was suppose to teach us "how to think". My history teachers were Che following commies, who would force feminism and far-left thinking into our minds. :P My epistemology teacher was somone quite special. It was him who really "taught" us "how to think" in a more philosophical context. He employed the Socratic method, basically, the day before every class, he assigns anywhere from 10 to 100 pages of reading material (per day) dealing with problems of knowledge in various areas of academic discipline. Next day, he begins the class with writing a big "?" on the white board, and what does he do afterwards? he sits back, and listens to our discussions. He almost never contributes anything other than asking us additional questions, "guiding" our discussion to the desired destinations. That was really something i had never seen before, because you are constantly put on the spot, you had to think, and think fast. At the end, it's amazing how far i have come, needless to say I benefited immensely from that class.

On another interesting note, this teacher of mine is a CE0 of a muti-million dollar investment group. He once sold a website of his for 60 million dollars during one of our passing periods(on the cellphone)! He teaches not for the money, but because he promised a boy who had AIDS to pursue his own dreams. The boy died at the end, and he quit acting to pursue a degree in education. And became a high school teacher. quite a story, huh?
Sounds like a cool guy! You're lucky to have a had a teacher like that, as you could probably already tell, most teachers either don't care or care but have a hard time keeping anyone interested. Sounds like a fun class (except for the days with 100 pages of reading)  :P



Quote from: 71 dB on October 30, 2007, 11:41:35 AM
What have you read? Elgar's miniatures like Minuet, Op 21? Yeah, that's maybe not as complex as Mahler's or Bruckners symphonies.  ;D

Have you read the score of The Apostles? I suppose nobody finds that small or simple.
ok, everyone...... compare these two scores.

Here I have the Elgar Cello Concerto (this is the only score i can say I've really studied/followed through) and Mahler's 6th.
look, compare........ what does everyone think? Which is more complex?

This is not a very important issue, btw, but it's fun to compare anyways.... i'm not saying either score is better than the other.

I haven't read The Apostles so hey, i wouldn't know what to expect!  :D
The Cello Concerto, i'm assuming can represent the overall complexity of the majority of Elgar scores... if i'm wrong, then correct me.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=dcb128f2935e136891b20cc0d07ba4d275b77228dfe2e270

karlhenning

Quote from: CS on October 30, 2007, 09:09:01 AM
First, I don't think Karl seriously thinks Elgar is "simple", but I'll let him clarify.

I don't; but if I did, I don't see why no one should be permitted to argue the point  8)

At least, where Elgar's music is simple, that is simply part of the music's character, and not any intrinsic positive or negative pull.

With all respect to Sarge's unalloyed enjoyment of the Elgar catalogue, I think he overstates a bit in considering his entire list "masterpieces" (at the very least, the Sospiro, charming and lightweight, is a minor work).  I'll join him in praising the greater part of that list;  the symphonies, though, and the piano quintet fall short of masterpiece status in my view.

Admittedly a subjective yardstick, but notwithstanding the fact that I've found most of the Mahler and Bruckner symphonies which I have heard so far a little mixed, they have all 'convinced' me to a greater degree than the Elgar First or Second (much though I find to like in these, too).

karlhenning

I need to revisit Mahler's Resurrection Symphony, which I liked much better in an initial listen to the live Klemperer recording . . . .

greg

Quote from: karlhenning on October 31, 2007, 06:28:25 AM
I need to revisit Mahler's Resurrection Symphony, which I liked much better in an initial listen to the live Klemperer recording . . . .
which recording was the "initial listen?"

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: karlhenning on October 31, 2007, 06:25:59 AMter, and not any intrinsic positive or negative pull.

With all respect to Sarge's unalloyed enjoyment of the Elgar catalogue, I think he overstates a bit in considering his entire list "masterpieces" (at the very least, the Sospiro, charming and lightweight, is a minor work).

Review my list again, Karl. You'll not find Sospiro listed because I do not consider it a masterpiece. The works I did list fully deserve the title, I believe. Obviously Elgar composed quite a few light-weight works (as did Mozart and Schubert). No argument from me. But that fact does not mean his great works are somehow lesser for that...but then I know you agree with that.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Keemun

Quote from: karlhenning on October 31, 2007, 06:28:25 AM
I need to revisit Mahler's Resurrection Symphony, which I liked much better in an initial listen to the live Klemperer recording . . . .

Try this one, if you haven't already heard it:

Music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life. - Ludwig van Beethoven