Bruckner good, Mahler boring?

[karlhenning]

Oh, and here I almost though accompanying Birdcage

[Cato]

EmpNapoleon: on your comments about finding Bruckner more "serious" than Mahler.

Possibly, but not very much.  Certainly Mahler's use of grotesque juxtapositions might make specific works seem less serious: the use of the dance band off-stage in Das Klagende Lied during the exposure of a fratricide in fact only heightens the monstrousness of the crime.

But certainly both composers have serious works under their belts, and one can only quibble about the degree.

Compare e.g. their Sixth Symphonies: while Bruckner's has one of his most elegiac slow movements, complete with funeral march, the other movements sound quite enigmatic at times.  Seriousness is interspersed with some fun now and then.  Mahler's Sixth is one of the most emotionally brutal works one can experience, next to e.g. Hartmann's efforts.  The "seriousness" is unrelenting, even in the Scherzo.

Mahler's Seventh seems like refreshing fun in contrast to his Sixth, and to be sure, Bruno Walter refused to conduct it, considering it "weak."  But even it has some "serious" things to offer.

[greg]

Greg, I have a score of Elgar's First Symphony.  I will ship it to you, along with the accompanying birdcage.  No charge to you.  One minor warning, however: some of the pages are soiled.

no thanks i already have enough poop in my house 

Mahler's Seventh seems like refreshing fun in contrast to his Sixth, and to be sure, Bruno Walter refused to conduct it, considering it "weak."  But even it has some "serious" things to offer.

just like his shortest symphony, the 4th, is a refreshment after the 3rd.
hard to imagine one could listen to the first movement of the 7th and call it "weak" (unless conducted horribly)

[greg]

Bruckner, Mahler, Shostakovich, Beethoven and Sibelius fanatism is ok, accepted. Why? Yes, historical distortion and "social feedback brainwashing mechanism."

well, simply put, more people are likely to find Elgar boring in comparison. Why you don't, is unique. Not a bad thing.... composers need their fans to keep their memory and music alive.

[BachQ]

I am 100 % sure Bruckner and Mahler are more valued among people because liking them is more accepted socially. This is manifested on this forum. I am the crazy guy here with my Elgar fanatism. Bruckner, Mahler, Shostakovich, Beethoven and Sibelius fanatism is ok, accepted. Why? Yes, historical distortion and "social feedback brainwashing mechanism."

Here we go again .........

[karlhenning]

Liking Bruckner or Mahler is "more accepted socially" than liking Elgar?  Poju, you must have drained that toilet dry about now . . . .

[greg]

and socially...... he must mean here.... cause in real life no one listens to Bruckner, Mahler, or Elgar.

[karlhenning]

 

[karlhenning]

Ben Zander will conduct the Boston Philharmonic in the Bruckner Fifth this month.

[Renfield]

The law of sub-minorities. Of ALL people only a minority likes classical music. Of ALL fans of classical music only a minority admires Elgar. Of ALL Elgar fans only a minority thinks the 2nd symphony is better than the 1st...

Where do I put my signature? Apparently, I'm in that niche of yours, as defined above.

[bhodges]

Ben Zander will conduct the Boston Philharmonic in the Bruckner Fifth this month.

Now that could be a very interesting concert!  I've never heard Zander live, although I've read reports of his Mahler.  Are you going?  Please report back, if so.  The end of the Fifth, with its blazing brass chorale, can be pretty sublime in the right hands. 

--Bruce

[karlhenning]

I'd like to go to that one, too, Bruce;  but that Saturday is the night I'm going to the Carter Horn Concerto;  and I am scheduled to work at the shop that Thursday evening and Sunday afternoon.

(Also on the BSO program that weekend is the Mahler First, of course.)

[bhodges]

I'd like to go to that one, too, Bruce;  but that Saturday is the night I'm going to the Carter Horn Concerto;  and I am scheduled to work at the shop that Thursday evening and Sunday afternoon.

(Also on the BSO program that weekend is the Mahler First, of course.)

Alas, I don't think I'm going to be able to make the Carter/Mahler program (which would be worth attending more than once).  Have to rely on vicarious reports from you, Joe and others who go. 

--Bruce

[zauberflöte]

It was Glenn Gould who asked about Bruckner something like: Is it possible that behind a foursquare music lurks a foursquare mind? 
Bruckner's spirituality doesn't move me. Mahler's Ninth, though, that's moving

[bhodges]

Since I didn't weigh in on the original post...

Interesting that Bruckner seems to be identified more with serenity, cathedrals, and slow-moving changes, whereas Mahler is a world of angst, surprises, and passages that clash violently against each other.  (I'm speaking in very general terms of course, since Bruckner has plenty of torridness, and Mahler, some of the gentlest music anywhere.) 

It always perplexes me why they are spoken of in the same breath, however, since they could not be more different.  Sometimes I can almost fall into a trance listening to Bruckner, but never with Mahler, who is much more about chaos, unbridled emotion, abrupt movement, and unusual combinations of instruments. 

Both of these composers are very intense, and I can easily see someone "burning out" on either one and needing to set them aside for awhile.  But no harm there: just listen to something else and return to them later.

--Bruce

[max]

It was Glenn Gould who asked about Bruckner something like: Is it possible that behind a foursquare music lurks a foursquare mind? 
Bruckner's spirituality doesn't move me. Mahler's Ninth, though, that's moving

I'm glad I got the best of BOTH worlds.

[quintett op.57]

I've been listening to Mahler with suspicion because of this topic. I'm feeling that Mahler is lacking something Bruckner has

Of course, but the reverse is true as well (incurable fan of Bruckner speaking).
Which great composer does not lack sthing others have? (I'm expecting some reaction, we'll see)

[mahlertitan]

even if Walter claims that Mahler's 7th is "weak", it's weak only relative to the rest of Mahler's symphonic output. The 7th in itself, is a masterpiece, no matter how you put it. It might suffer from "incoherence" proclaimed by some people.... but, the music itself is utterly unforgettable. My favorite single movement of Mahler is the first night music. It is difficult to find anything comparable to it, the only thing that come closest to that is Bruckner's 4th symphony 2nd movement.

[Cato]

even if Walter claims that Mahler's 7th is "weak", it's weak only relative to the rest of Mahler's symphonic output. The 7th in itself, is a masterpiece, no matter how you put it. It might suffer from "incoherence" proclaimed by some people.... but, the music itself is utterly unforgettable. My favorite single movement of Mahler is the first night music. It is difficult to find anything comparable to it, the only thing that come closest to that is Bruckner's 4th symphony 2nd movement.

My idea of the "weak" Mahler symphony is #4: the last movement just does not make it as a conclusion for me.  And I don't need a blazing finale: the fading away of the Ninth is marvelous. As such, I just do not buy the concluding movement as adequate for the conception.  Mahler apparently did, however, so...! Patience!      0:)

A "weak" Bruckner symphony!  Which one might that be...if any?   

[greg]

Ben Zander will conduct the Boston Philharmonic in the Bruckner Fifth this month.

mmm.... yummy.... after Schubert 8th, nice