Chopin

[Florestan]

Boy, did I inadvertently touch some sore spots... 

Anyway, let's see, limiting ourselves only to the opus-numbered works:

Beethoven: 138
Brahms: 122
Chopin: 65, ie 47% of Beethoven's and 53 % of Brahms.

Tiny fraction?

[North Star]

Boy, did I inadvertently touch some sore spots... 

Anyway, let's see, limiting ourselves only to the opus-numbered works:

Beethoven: 138
Brahms: 122
Chopin: 65, ie 47% of Beethoven's and 53 % of Brahms.

Tiny fraction?

Average length (in bars or minutes) of work?

Ohlsson's Complete Chopin: 16 CDs
https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDS44351/66

Brilliant Complete Beethoven: 85 CDs
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=570976

Brilliant Complete Brahms: 58 CDs
https://www.brilliantclassics.com/articles/b/brahms-complete-edition/

So Beethoven and Brahms wrote about 5.3 and 3.6 as much music as Chopin did, respectively. The Brilliant Complete Bach is 160 CDs, so 10 times as much as the Chopin, and almost twice/thrice as much as the Beethoven/Brahms.

[Madiel]

It would actually be an interesting exercise to look at what proportion of a composer's work is still heard regularly. Though exactly how you would assess what is "regular" is a bit of a difficult question.

This is where I think Chopin is on pretty strong ground. A large range of his works still get heard and are known, with only a relatively small proportion that are relegated to the completists.

Brahms doesn't do too badly. Beethoven does reasonably. Then you get someone like Sibelius where it's 7 symphonies and the Violin Concerto over and over...

But yes, this is at least partly to do with genre. If you wrote things that have gone decidedly out of fashion, like choral works, or require difficult or unusual resources to perform, then those works tend to fade away. Piano music is easy in this regard. It requires just one performer on a very common and popular instrument.

[Florestan]

Average length (in bars or minutes) of work?

Ohlsson's Complete Chopin: 16 CDs
https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDS44351/66

Brilliant Complete Beethoven: 85 CDs
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=570976

Brilliant Complete Brahms: 58 CDs
https://www.brilliantclassics.com/articles/b/brahms-complete-edition/

So Beethoven and Brahms wrote about 5.3 and 3.6 as much music as Chopin did, respectively. The Brilliant Complete Bach is 160 CDs, so 10 times as much as the Chopin, and almost twice/thrice as much as the Beethoven/Brahms.

From a purely quantitative point of view, you are right. Qualitatively, though, you'd be right if and only if you could explain in no uncertain terms how and why writing a symphony or a string quartet is a greater and more important musical achievement than writing a set of etudes or preludes, or how and why this or that of the many sets of Lieder Beethoven and Brahms composed are superior to this or that set of Chopin's nocturnes, waltzes or mazurkas.

It would actually be an interesting exercise to look at what proportion of a composer's work is still heard regularly. Though exactly how you would assess what is "regular" is a bit of a difficult question.

This is where I think Chopin is on pretty strong ground. A large range of his works still get heard and are known, with only a relatively small proportion that are relegated to the completists.

You seem to be the only one that got me right.

[Marc]

You have a point about recordings (afaIk, there are three complete Bach editions --- far behind Chopin, for that matter, with at least seven) but performance-wise I strongly doubt that even during a whole concert season all around the world (including concert halls, churches and festivals) everything that Bach wrote is performed. And there is one more difference: everything that Bach wrote is of interest only to Bach completists, while everything that Chopin wrote appeals to the general audience.

Granted, Chopin's oeuvre is quantitatively only a tiny fraction of Bach's and this explains a lot; but otoh so is Beethoven's or Brahms' and there are enough of their works who never, or very rarely, get performed.

I.c. Bach: as you said: his oeuvre (and f.i. Mozart's) is rather huge. That's already sufficient to make a comparison with Chopin difficult.

Still, in this country (and probably others, like Germany or Belgium), I think that a huge amount of the Bach output is performed. For instance: there are quite some cities with so-called Cantata Services. In many cases works of Bach for that particular Sunday are performed. In between they play organ chorales or other keyboard works on organ or harpsichord (if present). Of course it takes some years to perform them all.
Also: I would not be surprised if the general audience (if it existed) around here is far more interested in a Complete Bach Edition than in Chopin's. When Brilliant issued their Bach boxset in 2000, it was a big hit in the Netherlands. Front page news about huge selling figures, and interviews with (mainly) Leusink on radio and television. Such a thing would be impossible here for a Chopin edition.

Btw: don't worry, you didn't touch a sore spot. I just had some (more or less) serious doubts about your assumption. And I can only/mainly speak of Bach, because I tend to listen to him the most (either at home, either at concerts).   

[North Star]

From a purely quantitative point of view, you are right. Qualitatively, though, you'd be right if and only if you could explain in no uncertain terms how and why writing a symphony or a string quartet is a greater and more important musical achievement than writing a set of etudes or preludes, or how and why this or that of the many sets of Lieder Beethoven and Brahms composed are superior to this or that set of Chopin's nocturnes, waltzes or mazurkas.

You seem to be the only one that got me right.

I have not made a qualitative argument against Chopin. Writing a good piece of music is greater and more important than writing a bad piece of music. Chopin's output is a special case, not only because of its consistently high quality, but also because it is relatively small and mostly limited to solo piano works - not because there's anything wrong with these things, but because these things explain why such a large portion of his oeuvre is performed so often. I'm certainly not saying that Chopin's achievement is somehow lessened by him not writing operas or oratorios or overtures.

[Florestan]

I.c. Bach: as you said: his oeuvre (and f.i. Mozart's) is rather huge. That's already sufficient to make a comparison with Chopin difficult.

Still, in this country (and probably others, like Germany or Belgium), I think that a huge amount of the Bach output is performed. For instance: there are quite some cities with so-called Cantata Services. In many cases works of Bach for that particular Sunday are performed. In between they play organ chorales or other keyboard works on organ or harpsichord (if present). Of course it takes some years to perform them all.
Also: I would not be surprised if the general audience (if it existed) around here is far more interested in a Complete Bach Edition than in Chopin's. When Brilliant issued their Bach boxset in 2000, it was a big hit in the Netherlands. Front page news about huge selling figures, and interviews with (mainly) Leusink on radio and television. Such a thing would be impossible here for a Chopin edition.

Yes, I am aware that in The Netherlands Bach has a cult status. But The Netherlands is only a tiny fraction of the global classical music market.

don't worry, you didn't touch a sore spot.

Oh, I wasn't referring to you with that rather tongue-in-cheek remark.

I just had some (more or less) serious doubts about your assumption. And I can only/mainly speak of Bach, because I tend to listen to him the most (either at home, either at concerts).

It was not an assumption, just a thought. As Madiel perceptively said, it could be shown to be false or right by calculating which percentage of Chopin's works is still currently and frequently performed / recorded and comparing the result with similar calculations for Bach, Beethoven or Brahms (the names that have been offered as a counter-argument). Difficult but not altogether impossible. My hunch is that Chopin will be ahead of all three.

And now it has just occurred to me that this could be, and probably was, interpreted as a judgment value, ie that I claim Chopin is a better / greater composer than the other three. That's definitely not the case: I am in principle opposed to ranking and classifying composers and, while I admit to liking Chopin's music more than Bach's this subjective preferrence is in no way a judgment value.

[Florestan]

I have not made a qualitative argument against Chopin. Writing a good piece of music is greater and more important than writing a bad piece of music. Chopin's output is a special case, not only because of its consistently high quality, but also because it is relatively small and mostly limited to solo piano works - not because there's anything wrong with these things, but because these things explain why such a large portion of his oeuvre is performed so often. I'm certainly not saying that Chopin's achievement is somehow lessened by him not writing operas or oratorios or overtures.

I have misunderstood your posts. My apologies.  0:)

[Marc]

Yes, I am aware that in The Netherlands Bach has a cult status. But The Netherlands is only a tiny fraction of the global classical music market.

Maybe there are more countries where Bach is rated higher. Whatever that is worth of course... and it's off-topic.

[...]
And now it has just occurred to me that this could be, and probably was, interpreted as a judgment value, ie that I claim Chopin is a better / greater composer than the other three. That's definitely not the case: I am in principle opposed to ranking and classifying composers and, while I admit to liking Chopin's music more than Bach's this subjective preferrence is in no way a judgment value.

Not to 'worry': I wasn't interpreting it that way.
And besides that: I'm perfectly fine with your personal preference. I like Chopin a lot, too. His music had an immediate appeal on me, and it still has. Vladimir Tropp's Denon disc (with a.o. Sonata no 2 and the Barcarolle) is one of my 'desert island' discs.

[Florestan]

Vladimir Tropp's Denon disc (with a.o. Sonata no 2 and the Barcarolle) is one of my 'desert island' discs.

That's an excellent disc indeed. Check oout the second volume, too.

[Marc]

That's an excellent disc indeed. Check oout the second volume, too.

I know about this issue, but is it available for a decent price somewhere?
Even a download would do.

[Mandryka]

I know about this issue, but is it available for a decent price somewhere?
Even a download would do.

I'll let you have it.

[Marc]

I'll let you have it.

ty, pm sent.

[Florestan]

Mandryka beat me to it. 

[Marc]

Mandryka beat me to it. 

ty, too!

[Marc]

Listening to Tropp's 2nd Chopin disc right now... man, that delicious Denon sound (even on my modest PC).
Thanks, Mandryka!

[North Star]

Hm, I'd love to hear Tropp's Chopin too now... (both discs )

[Marc]

Hm, I'd love to hear Tropp's Chopin too now... (both discs )

Oh dear...

[amw]

Just a thought: it may very well be that, of all past composers, Chopin is the only one whose work is still performed, recorded and universally acclaimed and loved almost in its entirety: excluding juvenilia, pretty much everything that Chopin wrote is still in the repertoire. That can't be said of any other major composer, not even Bach, Mozart and Beethoven. Chopin is quite unique in this respect.

The only other examples I can think of are composers with smaller outputs: Mahler, Ravel, Borodin, Janáček (and even then almost all of his choral music is rarely heard—not too different from Chopin's songs). Chopin might be the composer with the largest output of which almost all is heard frequently.

[Baron Scarpia]

The only other examples I can think of are composers with smaller outputs: Mahler, Ravel, Borodin, Janáček (and even then almost all of his choral music is rarely heard—not too different from Chopin's songs). Chopin might be the composer with the largest output of which almost all is heard frequently.

I don't know how you evaluate output size, but if you go by total duration of composed music a Chopin complete edition fits on 16 CDs, Ravel on 14 CDs, Mahler on 16 CDs. Debussy can be 24 CDs, but that is with a fair number of non-essential transcriptions.