Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 1104085 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 19485
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11220 on: April 12, 2017, 04:57:34 AM »
Say the notes something about?

Nothing at all, not even the least suggestion he might have been of Spanish descent. The possibility is alluded here:

http://classicalsource.com/db_control/db_cd_review.php?id=3150

Grove online has this to say:

(b Vienna, bap. 16 Aug 1734; d Vienna, 6 Sept 1786). Austrian composer and violinist. Although an entry in Count Karl von Zinzendorf’s diary (23 April 1775) describes him as the ‘fils naturel de M. de Buquoy’, the baptismal and other archival records describe him as the son of Johann Baptist Christoph von Ordonez – an infantry lieutenant and former owner of property in Neuschloss (now Nové Zámky), Moravia


« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 04:59:16 AM by Florestan »
"I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

Offline Gordo

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3979
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11221 on: April 12, 2017, 05:13:51 AM »
Nothing at all, not even the least suggestion he might have been of Spanish descent. The possibility is alluded here:

http://classicalsource.com/db_control/db_cd_review.php?id=3150

Grove online has this to say:

(b Vienna, bap. 16 Aug 1734; d Vienna, 6 Sept 1786). Austrian composer and violinist. Although an entry in Count Karl von Zinzendorf’s diary (23 April 1775) describes him as the ‘fils naturel de M. de Buquoy’, the baptismal and other archival records describe him as the son of Johann Baptist Christoph von Ordonez – an infantry lieutenant and former owner of property in Neuschloss (now Nové Zámky), Moravia

Thanks, Andrei!

Quite curious, indeed.  :)
Musica lætitiæ comes medicina dolorum
(Music is a companion to joy and a medicine for pains)

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31780
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11222 on: April 12, 2017, 05:15:54 AM »
An unmistakable Spaniard surname. I noticed you wrote "von Ordoñez". Say the notes something about?
Nothing at all, not even the least suggestion he might have been of Spanish descent. The possibility is alluded here:

http://classicalsource.com/db_control/db_cd_review.php?id=3150

Grove online has this to say:

(b Vienna, bap. 16 Aug 1734; d Vienna, 6 Sept 1786). Austrian composer and violinist. Although an entry in Count Karl von Zinzendorf’s diary (23 April 1775) describes him as the ‘fils naturel de M. de Buquoy’, the baptismal and other archival records describe him as the son of Johann Baptist Christoph von Ordonez – an infantry lieutenant and former owner of property in Neuschloss (now Nové Zámky), Moravia

What Florestan wrote is pretty much all I knew either. I have certainly seen the name with a tilde over the 'n', I think it is not shown here for two different reasons: the old debate about whether to accent upper-case letters, and the fact that some people don't know how to make one!  ñ  :D

In the early 18th century, the countries we now call Spain and Austria, along with many other discrete parts of Europe, were all part of the Habsburg possessions. Maria Theresia's father, Charles VI, was, for a time, the King of Spain. The point being that many modern families which we would call Spanish, Italian, Belgian, Hungarian etc, were, to each other, simply Habsburg vassals, and so we see a lot of nationalities turning up in Vienna. My guess would be this is what happened here.

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 19485
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11223 on: April 12, 2017, 05:23:07 AM »
Whatever his ethnicity, the music is beautiful and moving.
"I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

Offline Gordo

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3979
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11224 on: April 12, 2017, 05:25:08 AM »
What Florestan wrote is pretty much all I knew either. I have certainly seen the name with a tilde over the 'n', I think it is not shown here for two different reasons: the old debate about whether to accent upper-case letters, and the fact that some people don't know how to make one!  ñ  :D

It's a bit different:"n" and "ñ" are totally different letters, with different sound. For that reason "año" (year) and "ano" (anus) are completely different words.  :D

What Florestan wrote is pretty much all I knew either. I have certainly seen the name with a tilde over the 'n', I think it is not shown here for two different reasons: the old debate about whether to accent upper-case letters, and the fact that some people don't know how to make one!  ñ  :D

In the early 18th century, the countries we now call Spain and Austria, along with many other discrete parts of Europe, were all part of the Habsburg possessions. Maria Theresia's father, Charles VI, was, for a time, the King of Spain. The point being that many modern families which we would call Spanish, Italian, Belgian, Hungarian etc, were, to each other, simply Habsburg vassals, and so we see a lot of nationalities turning up in Vienna. My guess would be this is what happened here.

8)

I totally agree: the world was quite different back then, even if "our romantics" think that things have always been the same.  ;) :D ;D   
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 05:26:44 AM by Gordo »
Musica lætitiæ comes medicina dolorum
(Music is a companion to joy and a medicine for pains)

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 19485
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11225 on: April 12, 2017, 05:33:56 AM »
It's a bit different:"n" and "ñ" are totally different letters, with different sound. For that reason "año" (year) and "ano" (anus) are completely different words.  :D

El año del ano, o el ano del año?

Quote
I totally agree: the world was quite different back then, even if "our romantics" think that things have always been the same.  ;) :D ;D

Don't know who these romantics might be, but I certainly agree with the world being different back then --- there was a time when Haydn and Mozart were seriously thought of as romantics (please notice the small r, although in German it would have been capitalized...) and active officers delighted in the "fire and passion" of the former's music.  :)   :D  ;D
"I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31780
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11226 on: April 12, 2017, 07:17:26 AM »
El año del ano, o el ano del año?

Don't know who these romantics might be, but I certainly agree with the world being different back then --- there was a time when Haydn and Mozart were seriously thought of as romantics (please notice the small r, although in German it would have been capitalized...) and active officers delighted in the "fire and passion" of the former's music.  :)   :D  ;D

But speaking of differences, it should be noted that, while they were called romantics by a very few (one?) critics, the word Classicist hadn't been invented yet, so it is hard to know what else they would have been called. Almost every term we use today to describe the musical periods of the past, hadn't been invented yet. Baroque, Classic, Romantic etc. My guess, and it is just that, is that they called themselves musicians, possibly modern musicians as opposed to "Antient" ones, which is a term they actually did use!   :)   Antient Musick. I love it! ;)

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Online k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 55183
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, D. Scarlattii, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Martinů, Haydn, Henning
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11227 on: April 12, 2017, 07:22:12 AM »
So when we observe that Haydn and Mozart were seriously thought of as romantics, the term doesn't mean what we in the early 21st century may be apt to think?
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31780
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11228 on: April 12, 2017, 07:27:02 AM »
So when we observe that Haydn and Mozart were seriously thought of as romantics, the term doesn't mean what we in the early 21st century may be apt to think?

:) 

I have to say, I'm not really sure that the term meant to Brahms or Tchaikovsky what it mean to us in the 21st century. :D  There are those who say that Sturm und Drang is the true precursor to eventual 'Romantic' music. I don't know, all that musicology stuff is hard on the old brain pan. :)

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

kishnevi

  • Guest
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11229 on: April 12, 2017, 07:29:06 AM »
What Florestan wrote is pretty much all I knew either. I have certainly seen the name with a tilde over the 'n', I think it is not shown here for two different reasons: the old debate about whether to accent upper-case letters, and the fact that some people don't know how to make one!  ñ  :D

In the early 18th century, the countries we now call Spain and Austria, along with many other discrete parts of Europe, were all part of the Habsburg possessions. Maria Theresia's father, Charles VI, was, for a time, the King of Spain. The point being that many modern families which we would call Spanish, Italian, Belgian, Hungarian etc, were, to each other, simply Habsburg vassals, and so we see a lot of nationalities turning up in Vienna. My guess would be this is what happened here.

8)

The composer was at least one generation removed from Spain, possibly more.  I would guess that the tilde, if it was there in his father's era, would have dropped out of sight, and the composer referred to as von Ordonez with no tilde: orthographic assimilation.

Online k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 55183
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, D. Scarlattii, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Martinů, Haydn, Henning
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11230 on: April 12, 2017, 07:32:29 AM »
The composer was at least one generation removed from Spain, possibly more.  I would guess that the tilde, if it was there in his father's era, would have dropped out of sight, and the composer referred to as von Ordonez with no tilde: orthographic assimilation.

Aye.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 19485
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11231 on: April 12, 2017, 07:40:07 AM »
"I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

Offline North Star

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 17442
  • Location: Oulu, Finland
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11232 on: April 12, 2017, 07:49:12 AM »
Fixed.  :D
That doesn't strike me as entirely appropriate as spelling conventions were less than fixed. ;)
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

My photographs on Flickr

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 19485
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11233 on: April 20, 2017, 05:17:04 AM »
"I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31780
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11234 on: April 20, 2017, 06:28:51 AM »
https://is.muni.cz/el/1421/podzim2015/VH_804a/Hudebni_kultura_v_Haydnove_Vidni.pdf

Interesting article on Haydn and his times.

Yes, that is a very interesting article. I recommend it. I got a lot of info about salons from that essay, hard to find anywhere else.

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31780
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11235 on: April 28, 2017, 10:42:49 AM »
I really have developed a taste for smaller works, I don't really think of them as small, In Haydn's case they contain a pretty big chunk of music in that small package. That's what I discovered this time. :)

Let's march and sing,
 it's all the rage!


Thanks,
8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

kishnevi

  • Guest
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11236 on: April 28, 2017, 04:08:18 PM »
I like how you managed to get one of the two serpents at the exact center of the image.

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31780
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11237 on: April 28, 2017, 04:25:54 PM »
I like how you managed to get one of the two serpents at the exact center of the image.

:D Thanks, people don't usually notice those little touches. Boy, finding a painting of a cavalry band was an all evening task!!  :)

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Online Sergeant Rock

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 22338
  • Location: Wine Country Germany
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11238 on: April 29, 2017, 05:44:58 AM »
Boy, finding a painting of a cavalry band was an all evening task!!  :)

8)

And well worth the time spent: a fascinating painting that I'd not seen before, illustrating a fascinating Haydn story I'd not heard before. 50 guineas! Wow.

The two marches are on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mE5IaE4KlU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpa8AcnhWAA


Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31780
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11239 on: April 29, 2017, 05:58:04 AM »
And well worth the time spent: a fascinating painting that I'd not seen before, illustrating a fascinating Haydn story I'd not heard before. 50 guineas! Wow.

The two marches are on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mE5IaE4KlU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpa8AcnhWAA


Sarge

Thanks, Sarge, I had you in mind when I was writing that part, I know you like your marches as much as I do. The piano reductions of those marches are readily available, but the only orchestrated versions I have are on this disk. It is actually the same disk that the Youtube tracks are from. I bought it on sight, and was glad I did because it didn't hang around for long!

I justified going out of time on the painting because George IV was Prince of Wales when Haydn wrote that march for him. It was the best I could do, fortunately it worked out well!  :)

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106