A different cut on beginners' classical music

[Teresa]

No volta face, just a change in approach to see if it elicited a more generous (read: comprehensible) response. I keep telling myself I'm done with this thread, but 'just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in.'

To a certain degree I feel a little sympathetic for Teresa. I believe she was genuinely well-intentioned in the making of those lists. It must be somewhat discomforting to be a new member of a forum simply to have the membership leap down your throat. Similarly, she has told us that she listens to music with the lights off, reclining in the sweet-spot with her eyes closed. I think I'd be right in assuming that her experience of music is quite an immersive and, more importantly, physical one, and I can understand how a string quartet doesn't quite have the immersion factor of a full orchestra with a percussion battery blaring away. On the other hand, the number of people who experience music solely in this manner are statistically insignificant, and there are now 9 pages of quite well-constructed arguments to which the only responses have boiled down to:

1. It's not meant to include everything, there are no 'must-have', unlike the elitist musical establishment
2. The musical establishment is trying to hide good music from the masses, on account of their elitism
3. It's morally wrong to recommend things that you yourself don't like
4. After 25, wait, 35, hang-on, 45 years of listening to music I know what I like
5. Don't you dare tell me what music to like, but at the same time, let me tell you that only 19th and 20th century orchestral music with percussion has real human emotion.
6. The list is for people who DON'T LIKE CLASSICAL MUSIC

Simultaneously, Teresa has refused to engage in any discussion, despite numerous attempts from various members, on:
1. The roles/responsibilities shouldered by those offering guidance to others
2. The mechanism by which her list forms a basis (if, indeed, it does) of the Western classical tradition
3. How (if indeed we are meant to) we are to interpret repertoire other than 'Power Orchestral' as anything but 'the bad stuff'.
4. Who is this 'musical establishment' that's forcing hack composers (like Brahms) down our throats?

All in all, Teresa has done nothing but spout conspiracy theories and cries of elitism and persecution when, in fact, she is the only one here that is rubbishing anybody's views on music.

Despite numerous advances, Teresa refuses to argue (or, apparently, even understand) the points being made by other members, and simply repeatedly pulls out her 'go-to' phrases (see list above).

If I wanted to argue with a four-year-old, there's a rather better-informed one living next door.

Let me be clear about this:
The prefatory material to Teresa's list (not so much the list itself), and her continuing attitude offends me in just about every way possible: aesthetically, morally, intellectually and spiritually. Her writing betrays a gross ignorance and a stubborn refusal to even accept the possibility that some might find her writing distasteful.

I'll cease ranting here, as I suspect I'm flying remarkably close to board rules about insulting other members. Suffice it to say that words like 'asinine' were about to be deployed.

That's it. I'm out. Any further contribution I make to this thread will be strictly removed from the ongoing argument.

Thanks very much for the understanding!  Those of us whom still actually listen to music without performing other activities especially with lights out is getting rare.  Time is a big factor I usually only have an hour or two to listen this way daily.

And I would like to make Some clarifications. It was 1972 when I first discovered Classical music that I liked so that is 35 years, but the 10 years before that were rock so it's 45 years total.  If we hadn't changed centuries I wouldn't have made the subtraction error.

I have engaged in discussion totally:
1. No one has a better perspective on developing a list of alternate musical choices for listeners who do not like traditional classical music than someone (me) who does not like traditional classical but has discovered 1000's of non-traditional classical compositions that are so approachable that they can be enjoyed on the very first listen. Plus they don't have to give up the percussion, rhythm, beat and power they have in the music they now like.  

2. The classic music I recommend is mostly not in the Western classical tradition but is non-traditional classical music.

3. There are 300 compositions on my Power Orchestra list and I own over 1,000 compositions and I don't consider my other 700 works the "the bad stuff' so that impression is totally wrong.

4. It's the Standard repertoire, the music reviews, the print magazines, movies, TV shows etc.  Most of the great stuff is well hidden but it is worth searching out.

Peace?

[Teresa]

But no doubt to everyone's surprise, I feel more than a little sympathetic to Teresa's aims as well. It is a genuine problem: how to introduce beginners to this music, how to deal with a culture in which classical music is so often disparaged (note correct use of this word), how to reach out to people who assume classical music is not for them without overwhelming or alienating them. And some of the works on Teresa's recommended list are just fine for this purpose. I remember at age 13 or so writing on our family's copy of Britten's Young Person's Guide, "my favorite piece." (I still enjoy it, though it's no longer my "favorite.") And I loved the Procession of the Sardar from Ippolitov-Ivanov's Caucasian Sketches.

Part of my problem, however, is that (apparently) due to her extreme dislike of absolute music, chamber music, piano music, opera, etc., Teresa IMO draws the line too tightly in favor of this notion of power orchestral music with percussion. And I say this precisely because I've seen too many new listeners enjoy much of the very music Teresa vehemently dislikes - so long as they're willing to give it a fair chance. I've brought beginning listeners to operas like La Boheme and Aida, played the Appassionata to them on my home piano, brought them to symphony concerts where Beethoven and Brahms were on the menu, and many have loved the experience.

Just a few weeks ago, for instance, I attended a New York Philharmonic concert which included the Brahms 4th Symphony. It was an unusual time - Friday 11 AM - but the reason became clear when I saw all the high school groups being ushered in. Of course I don't know anything about these kids and their backgrounds, but I would presume their experience of classical music was fairly limited. I didn't speak to any of them, but you can tell a lot about a person's reactions from their body language. Some of the kids gave the impression that they'd rather be anywhere else than Avery Fisher Hall. Quite a few, however, listened very intently as Brahms worked his magic. One young fellow in particular was a lot of fun to watch. We were seated quite close to the stage and during intermission he bounded up to the apron to speak to the Phil's very attractive (and very female) principal violists. During the Brahms you could see the music registering with him, and at one moment (during the peroration to the passacaglia) his eyes just lit up in a huge smile at one of Brahms's particularly surprising harmonic shifts. Surely this is what a lot of us here hope for when thinking how the classical tradition can and should be transmitted to future generations.

Rubbishing perhaps, but not disparaging. 

And with that, I really really must try to stay off this thread.

Thanks for your understanding.   "The Basic Power Orchestral Repertoire or Classical music for folks who don't like Classical music" was not written for those new listeners who enjoyed the very music I dislike (the Standard Repertoire) but for those who didn't like the Standard Repertoire, there is classical music for them as well.  In fact I am sure there is classical music somewhere for every living human being on Planet Earth if they could but find it.  That is where my list helps. 

I am confused by one thing what could be on a Power Orchestra List besides Power Orchestra music?  I am also thinking of making an Advanced Power Orchestra list for more complicated orchestral works I had to leave off the beginner list.

Anyone is free of course to make a list of "Chamber Music Repertoire, Piano Repertoire or Opera Repertoire for folks who don't like Classical music"  I would not be qualified to do so, perhaps you may want to?  Also feel free to include the statement there is no "banal" and "bombastic" music here just the good stuff.  It won't hurt me I have thicker skin I developed over 35 years of defending the Classical music I love.  I don't care if others thank it is trash, as to me it is the very musical nourishment I crave!

[Florestan]

2. The musical establishment is trying to hide good music from the masses, on account of their elitism

Brahms is opium for the masses. 

[eyeresist]

Just a few weeks ago, for instance, I attended a New York Philharmonic concert which included the Brahms 4th Symphony. It was an unusual time - Friday 11 AM - but the reason became clear when I saw all the high school groups being ushered in. Of course I don't know anything about these kids and their backgrounds, but I would presume their experience of classical music was fairly limited. I didn't speak to any of them, but you can tell a lot about a person's reactions from their body language. Some of the kids gave the impression that they'd rather be anywhere else than Avery Fisher Hall. Quite a few, however, listened very intently as Brahms worked his magic. One young fellow in particular was a lot of fun to watch. We were seated quite close to the stage and during intermission he bounded up to the apron to speak to the Phil's very attractive (and very female) principal violists. During the Brahms you could see the music registering with him, and at one moment (during the peroration to the passacaglia) his eyes just lit up in a huge smile at one of Brahms's particularly surprising harmonic shifts. Surely this is what a lot of us here hope for when thinking how the classical tradition can and should be transmitted to future generations.

Thanks for this heart-warming anecdote. I think Brahms 4 is a great choice for new listeners. It's Brahms' best symphony but also his most accessible. It's not over-long or obscure, but it's still musically serious. It has beauty and tender emotions, but without being soppy or twee. It's exciting without being bombastic. Its tunefulness and drama are easily understood by modern lay-audiences. I could go on (and on).

BTW, what else was on the program?

[Harry]

LOL - try rereading this thread, if you can bear it.

Well I did, and it was rather hurting for my eyes and soul to read.
But Teresa is a strong woman well equipped to defend herself, thank God!
She is outnumbered by more than 15 posters, with enough ammunition to shoot a elephant, and still she is standing.
For this I admire her.
And I am glad she is on the board, and sincerely hope she will stay.

[Florestan]

Well I did, and it was rather hurting for my eyes and soul to read.
But Teresa is a strong woman well equipped to defend herself, thank God!
She is outnumbered by more than 15 posters, with enough ammunition to shoot a elephant, and still she is standing.
For this I admire her.
And I am glad she is on the board, and sincerely hope she will stay.

Right. Fifteen reactionary elitists, trying to silence a tribune of the people and to keep the masses ignorant of the beauties of percussion.

C'm'on, Harry... 

[c#minor]

WOW! I have kept seeing this thread on the unread post but have not looked till now. I can say that this is a "slightly" heated debate......  I did read the lists as well and they were ....... well...... um........... ? ....... different. I am down with whatever when it comes to peoples preferences but the way you wrote the articles above the lists could pull people away from great music that you might just not happen to like Teresa. Brahms chamber music dry and boring...... that's never came to my mind. Maybe you should say things like "in my opinion" quite a bit more often.
And I do know that it must be disheartening to see a list that you wrote being torn to pieces by strangers and then when you come to defend it you get attacked, BUT what did you expect? You are actively telling people to ignore 200 years of music. And even when you do defend yourself you put up a sub-par argument.
Just MY opinion on these things, I don't want to impose MY opinion on anyone else.

c#

[Harry]

Right. Fifteen reactionary elitists, trying to silence a tribune of the people and to keep the masses ignorant of the beauties of percussion.

C'm'on, Harry... 

Awwww, I did not quite say that, now did I?

[Florestan]

Awwww, I did not quite say that, now did I?

[Topaz]

Although I totally disagree with Teresa's opinions, I could see early on in this thread that nothing any of us might say to defend the status quo would make the slightest difference to her views.  No-one has said anything of substance that hasn't already been said by the critic whose views are set out in her website, and she rubbished that.  These reactions, however, needed saying and many of them are very eloquent.

To me, Teresa's arguments lead to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  Her rejection of  absolute music, opera, and most chamber music has produced a highly skewed suggested list of classical music which most of us would say is a gross caricature of "classical music", it being little more than a curious mix of largely second rate rock-inspired, jazzed-up, pop-culture with the odd genuine article thrown just to give it a semblance of authenticity. 

I have known many people who dislike classical music, in fact the vast majority of my friends, relations, neighbours, work colleagues.  Whenever I've tried to discuss the reasons for this I've invariably found a major reluctance among these people to enter into any kind of serious discussion.  Mostly, people decline to say any more than the minimum they can get away with.  The best I've had by way of explanation is that too much of classical music is too complex and generally has a saddening effect on them, whereas they're looking for something more uplifting and light and the best way of achieving that is by pop culture type of music, so their attitude is why complicate things by introducing a pseudo-classical dimension.  Occasionally, someone might show a bit of interest, and out of courtesy might listen to some recommendations, but on the whole I don't kid myself that my efforts achieve anything lasting in the majority of cases.  I'm happy to accept the fact that classical music is a very small minority interest, always has been and probably always will be. 

Nor could I see that we would ever get an answer to the underlying question concerning what actual evidence she has that her list of suggested works is any more likely to stimulate interest in classical music among the 97% (or whatever) of the population who say they have no interest in this genre.  I think I asked this question previously but I have not seen any attempted answer.  I know why.  I don't think Teresa has any evidence at all that this so-called "power orchestral" stuff (Ugh!)  - with emphasis on percussive instruments - is the magic ingredient that will turn on the classical music sceptic.  It's merely what she likes, and the rest is pure wishful thinking.  I think that all we have in Teresa's "classical music" list, and her other musings and responses here, is nothing more than an expression of her own musical prejudices.  I can't see why she thinks it is more likely than a more conventional list to be of value to a professed classical music sceptic. 

So I remain completely unconvinced that Teresa has presented any evidence that her views on classical music for the sceptic either (i) actually have any wider applicability, or (ii) may have wider applicability if she can get the message over to a wide public, or (iii) should have wider applicability given their intrinsic merits. 

[Mozart]

I think Teresa faked it.

Oh God I cant stop laughing! 

[Harry]

Oh God I cant stop laughing! 

So did Meg Ryan, but it was pretty impressive anyway.

[Mozart]

That's very nice. I enjoy my Brahms and Schubert a lot. But if "enjoying classical music" boils down for you to "keeping the body juices flowing", "tasting good" and "having orgasms" then you're completely missing the point.

These ones sure get the body juices flowing I know when I think about Beethoven, I'm usually on the verge of orgasm 





This is seriously the most entertaining thread I've seen in a long time!

[Josquin des Prez]

Well I did, and it was rather hurting for my eyes and soul to read.

My very reaction to every each one of Teresa's posts.

[Teresa]

To me, Teresa's arguments lead to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  Her rejection of  absolute music, opera, and most chamber music has produced a highly skewed suggested list of classical music which most of us would say is a gross caricature of "classical music", it being little more than a curious mix of largely second rate rock-inspired, jazzed-up, pop-culture with the odd genuine article thrown just to give it a semblance of authenticity. 

So I am an illegitimate classical listener and very few of my 1,000 classical compositions I own or the 300 I recommended for listeners who do not like classical music are "real" classical music?  This is what you all seem to be telling me, and all the time I thought I liked classical music.  These composers thought they were composing classical works. Why does our music not past your test?  This is something no one explains, they just make fun of the classical music I love.  And this is nothing new I have heard some of my very favorite compositions called "banal" and "bombastic" over the decades of my classical journey.  Why do you believe you path is the only way? And those of us prefer non-traditional classical music are illegitimate?

You feel so little for the classical composers and classical compositions I love.  My guess would me you have not even heard 10% of the works on my lists.  So you just saying this to be mean.  Thank goodness most modern classical music is written in the dramatic style with lots of percussion that l love, do you also hate modern classical music?  Nearly 80% of my list was written in the last 100 years!  

In the last two decades I have found that my list is needed less and less as my style of classical music is becoming the predominately written and your absolute music is buried in the past just as Richard Wagner predicted it would be.

You may not like my classical music and I'm sure I don't like yours but the world is surly big enough for both camps, the dramatic and the absolute don't you think?

[Haffner]

I listen to music for the enjoyment of music. 

I hope there's nobody here trying to make this seem like a "bad" thing. Music is such a marvelous thing, and is for everyone. I personally chose to demand more from music, and myself. If someone choose music for different reasons, more power to them. I'm just grateful that it's genuinely for everyone.

[Haffner]

1. No one has a better perspective on developing a list of alternate musical choices for listeners who do not like traditional classical music than someone (me) who does not like traditional classical but has discovered 1000's of non-traditional classical compositions that are so approachable that they can be enjoyed on the very first listen. Plus they don't have to give up the percussion, rhythm, beat and power they have in the music they now like.  

No one?

[Haffner]

So did Meg Ryan, but it was pretty impressive anyway.

"I'll have what she's having..."

[Topaz]

You feel so little for the classical composers and classical compositions I love.  My guess would me you have not even heard 10% of the works on my lists.  So you just saying this to be mean. 

Teresa, what niggles me (and a few others here) is your claim that, arising out of your hatred of great swathes of the standard classical repertoire, you have made an important discovery that other types of music, which you label "power orchestral music", will also appeal to many people who profess a lack of interest in classical music.  Further, you state that this is the type of music that radio stations and other presenters should be promoting rather than the kind of classical music that appeals to the current majority.

... I firmly believe that radio stations are playing the WRONG classical music, reviewers are reviewing the WRONG classical music, so people new to classical music are being exposed to classical music they could never like. ...

What I'm querying is your evidence to support these claims.  For instance, I have asked why you believe that classical music with an emphasis on the use of percussive instruments (bells, triangles, tam-tam, bongos, marimbas and such like) should be any more appealing to a non-classical fan, than strings, woodwind and brass.  Is there some physiological reason that underpins your belief?  Importantly, where's the empirical evidence to support your view that this kind of music is what non-classical music lovers will like?  And aren't you concerned about the consequences of radio stations ceasing to present classical music which already has a proven market?

As I've said, while I'm always happy to listen to new classical music, in general I'm perfectly happy to go with the flow of public opinion on what's best in classical music, and if the non-classical hoy-palloy don't like it, well tough.  In particular, I don't want classical music radio stations pumping out relentlessly the type of music that happens merely to please you or other minority groups.   You are in effect leading the classically uneducated astray into a false belief that your system of likes and dislikes has some general applicability, which I don't think it has.  It's rather like "alternative medicine". 

In truth, your general tastes in classical music reflect largely a minority market which you are trying to talk up by making unnecessarily silly and ignorant comments about the established classical canon.

[(poco) Sforzando]

You feel so little for the classical composers and classical compositions I love.  My guess would me you have not even heard 10% of the works on my lists.  So you just saying this to be mean.  Thank goodness most modern classical music is written in the dramatic style with lots of percussion that l love, do you also hate modern classical music?  Nearly 80% of my list was written in the last 100 years!

Of course, as percussion was not widely used in orchestral music until about the time of early Stravinsky. Think of the Bruckner 7th - one cymbal crash and triangle roll, and even these may be spurious!

But do try Christopher Rouse's "Gorgon," Teresa. Closest thing to rock I know from a classical composer. I'll suggest it to you and maybe even recommend it.

In the last two decades I have found that my list is needed less and less as my style of classical music is becoming the predominately written and your absolute music is buried in the past just as Richard Wagner predicted it would be.

Is this the same Richard Wagner who revered Beethoven and was renowned for his conducting of the Ninth Symphony?