Handel Suggestions

[Harry]

So your operetta interest is instrumental I guess....

Yes, I think one can conclude that, Erato!

[Josquin des Prez]

I actually quite enjoy Rod's "anti-establishment" critiques because at least they do go some way in addressing the question why many of Handel's works received their world premiere recordings only recently. 

They don't, not when there are simpler, more plausible explanations.

[Rod Corkin]

They don't, not when there are simpler, more plausible explanations.

Ok, please explain away the Establishment's monumental disinterest in Handel in simpler more plausible terms...

[Josquin des Prez]

No, old-school Handel is not fine, it is bloody horrific.

I wonder, wouldn't that go a long way in explaining why the music of Handel has remained in relative obscurity until now? Maybe it isn't a conspiracy at all. Naw, never.

I knew Bach was not to my taste

And of course, if something doesn't conform to your taste then it means it's bad, even when everybody else (including prominent musicians and a number of major composers) disagrees.

[Josquin des Prez]

Ok, please explain away the Establishment's monumental disinterest in Handel in simpler more plausible terms...

The explanation has already been given by donwyn. But yeah, i guess crackpot conspiracy theories are more plausible then rational explanations. It's easier to hurl out baseless accusations when you don't have a case. It brings the argument to the enemy where the burden of proof is actually on you. 

[Rod Corkin]

I wonder, wouldn't that go a long way in explaining why the music of Handel has remained in relative obscurity until now? Maybe it isn't a conspiracy at all. Naw, never.

And of course, if something doesn't conform to your taste then it means it's bad, even when everybody else (including prominent musicians and a number of major composers) disagrees.

Not quite, old-school Beethoven is bloody awful too for the most part. But still most of his music was at least given a good airing. Yet you won't find a recording of Handel's greatest work, Theodora, before the 1990s, I'm pretty sure of that. And the same goes for many of his operas and other oratorios. Then compare the number of recordings of the Brandenburg concertos relative to Handel's Op6, despite the latter being a far bigger, more important and musically much more interesting collection?

[Rod Corkin]

The explanation has already been given by donwyn. But yeah, i guess crackpot conspiracy theories are more plausible then rational explanations. It's easier to hurl out baseless accusations when you don't have a case. It brings the argument to the enemy where the burden of proof is actually on you. 

I didn't respond to donwyns post because it is so full of misconceptions and untruths I didn't think anyone would take it seriously. Obviously I was wrong...

I have mentioned no crackpot conspiracy, just the aesthetic deviance that will inevitably arise when you totally academise an art form. I am not the only person who has written about this. I even read the same point made by Paul Henry Lang in his Handel biography, much to my surprise.

[Josquin des Prez]

Not quite, old-school Beethoven is bloody awful too for the most part.

Opinion =! fact, something you seem to have a problem with. "Old-school" Beethoven is probably the most monumental body of recorded music in the 20th century. If this doesn't demonstrate the extend of your error, nothing will.

But still most of his music was at least given a good airing.

The establishment at work once again, i assume, brushing Handel under the carpet while shoving Beethoven on everyones throats.

Then compare the number of recordings of the Brandenburg concertos relative to Handel's Op6, despite the latter being a far bigger, more important and musically much more interesting

What about the greater number of Vivaldi's Four Seasons recordings relative to the Opus 6 despite the latter being a much bigger work?  What about Handel's own Water and Fireworks music, also inferior to the Opus 6 concerti? Those too part of the conspiracy?

Handel's Concerti Grossi, written at the height of his creative powers may well be superior to the Brandenburgs but they can hardly be considered more "important". Bach's concertos are much more forward looking and far more influential (particularly to his own sons, who were to revolutionize the genre with their respective careers) then Handel's hopelessly outdated contribution to the form. It shouldn't be surprising then that the Brandenburgs have become more popular when they are more accessible then the archaic Opus 6.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I didn't respond to donwyns post because it is so full of misconceptions and untruths I didn't think anyone would take it seriously.

Darn, you mean Bach fans AREN'T cuddly??!??

I thought I had at least that part right!!

Rod, there are no 'untruths' or 'misconceptions' in my post. The only thing it lacks is a conspiracy angle.

Sure, Handel wrote in other genres besides opera/oratorio but in far fewer numbers than Bach. Ditto Rameau, etc...

So did the establishment hold Rameau down, too??

Who else have been victims? Certainly Handel isn't the only one...

[Rod Corkin]

Opinion =! fact, something you seem to have a problem with. "Old-school" Beethoven is probably the most monumental body of recorded music in the 20th century. If this doesn't demonstrate the extend of your error, nothing will.

The establishment at work once again, i assume.

What about the greater number of Vivaldi's Four Seasons relative to the Opus 6 despite the latter being a much bigger work? Is that too part of the conspiracy?

Handel's Concerti Grossi, written at the height of his creative powers may well be superior to the Brandenburgs but they can hardly be considered more "important". Bach's concerti are much more forward looking and far more influential then Handel's hopelessly outdated contribution to the genre.

You're opinions too! But it is true Handel's exposure in relation to most of the well known composers is below what musically one should expect, when you've actually heard his music. Thanks for bringing Vivaldi's lone effort as a further example. But generally the more you elevate Handel, I suggest it is Bach's relative status in the musical hierarchy that is more likely to 'suffer', not really Vivaldi or any of the others. This is my own impression of the 'balance of power' so to speak. Consider the last 10 years or so, Handel's position has risen significantly, certainly amongst the 'early adopters'. Handel is being performed everywhere, stuff that was never performed before.

You cannot deny that Handel was really regarded as the lower of the 'twin peaks' previously, but these days Handel's mountain is surely rising, whereas what is there new to learn about Bach? Nothing! In 50 years we will still be learning and experiencing new things about Handel, because his music has for the most part only just been looked at in performance and recordings.

I remember a time when professors said it was unfeasible to play Beethoven on the fortepiano, these days who would say this? These days the only instrument that should be played is the fortepiano! As these old-school relics die out the position is slowly changing, but it would change far quicker if they ceased to exist altogether in my opinion.

[Rod Corkin]

Who else have been victims? Certainly Handel isn't the only one...

Yes there have been others perhaps unduly kept in the shadows, but Handel is the one that, in relation to the quality of his output, has been dealt the most unfair hand.

I've said everything now, I will take leave of this topic.  0:)

[Josquin des Prez]

I didn't respond to donwyns post because it is so full of misconceptions and untruths I didn't think anyone would take it seriously.

What misconceptions, and what untruths? You haven't presented an argument to substantiate such accusations.

The fact remains that Handel's fame has a composer lies nearly exclusively on his large scale vocal works, which by the time of his death were hopelessly outdated. There in lies the reason for his apparent obscurity in relation to his genius (Theoretically. In truth, his name has always been very well known). The chances of anybody getting exposed to an Handel's opera or oratorio have been practically non-existent until recent times (who was going to risk the sheer financial burden of setting such monumental productions?), and that only thanks to the proliferation of recorded music and the lack of interest in contemporary composers, which has given many obscure artists of the past a new found notoriety.

Exposure to the music of Bach however has remained constant even after his immediate death, particularly thanks to his keyboard works which have never lost their pedagogical value to this very day. Practically every single keyboard virtuoso worth of his own name has build his technique by studying and practicing the works of Bach from an early age. You don't think that may have played a role in keeping his memory alive? 

I have mentioned no crackpot conspiracy, just the aesthetic deviance that will inevitably arise when you totally academise an art form. I am not the only person who has written about this. I even read the same point made by Paul Henry Lang in his Handel biography, much to my surprise.

Care to provide a direct quote to what Hanry Lang actually said?

[Josquin des Prez]

But generally the more you elevate Handel, I suggest it is Bach's relative status in the musical hierarchy that is more likely to 'suffer'

Why?

You cannot deny that Handel was really regarded as the lower of the 'twin peaks' previously

Well, some of us still think he is.

but these days Handel's mountain is surely rising, whereas what is there new to learn about Bach? Nothing! In 50 years we will still be learning and experiencing new things about Handel, because his music has for the most part only just been looked at in performance and recordings.

I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with the specific merits of those composers and the inherent value of their music. You seem to attach public opinion with the power of shaping the music itself rather then it's mere popularity.

For the record, before modern times, the music of Bach hasn't been really as popular as you think. The same process that has helped spread the fame of Handel is also benefiting Bach in equal measure.

I remember a time when professors said it was unfeasible to play Beethoven on the fortepiano, these days who would say this? These days the only instrument that should be played is the fortepiano!

Except fortepiano recordings of his music have been pretty average so far.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Yet you won't find a recording of Handel's greatest work, Theodora, before the 1990s, I'm pretty sure of that.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong:
http://www.harpers.org/subjects/HandelTheodoraSoundRecording/SubjectOf/Review

[(poco) Sforzando]

Ok, please explain away the Establishment's monumental disinterest in Handel in simpler more plausible terms...

Ok, please explain away why the Evil Establishment has changed its mind, in simple plausible terms, mind you...

[(poco) Sforzando]

Well, some of us still think he is.

Some of us do indeed. 

[FideLeo]

So your operetta interest is instrumental I guess....

My wagner opera interest is definitely instrumental.  (My favourite Ring is conducted by Pierre Boulez!  )

[FideLeo]

Any discussion around ideas that Handel can be considered as substantial & important as Bach is sad delusional (fan) stuff...

I think it's a bit late for the Establishment to issue its statement on the matter...

[Dancing Divertimentian]

What misconceptions, and what untruths? You haven't presented an argument to substantiate such accusations.

Thank you. Just what I was thinking...

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Yes there have been others perhaps unduly kept in the shadows, but Handel is the one that, in relation to the quality of his output, has been dealt the most unfair hand.

Why in the world would anybody be even remotely interested in keeping a classical composer "unduly in the shadows"??

And just what is the crime for which Handel (and others?) is guilty? Why is the 'establishment' picking on him so much?