J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Mandryka]

Yes it's really only that Leipzig chorale that I'm enthusiastic about from Koopman. I haven't heard all 6 CDs but just picking stuff randomly hasn't come up with anything as striking as that chorale. (There's a Trio sonata, BWV 527, there which I keep listening too. I don't much care for the sound of the organ (or maybe it's the recording, or my lack of subwoofer.)  But the performance is interesting because it's not just fast and exuberant in the first movement. Still, I'm not as taken by it as the chorale)

As far as Weinberger is concerned, I think Que is right to say things aren't consistent there, even just in CU3 there are some lows and highs.

By the way someone's  offered to sell me 8 Kooiman CDs for about £10 each -- his first set not the SACDs -- including CU 3 and the Trio Sonatas. Should I buy them -- I mean, what should I do . . . ?

[Marc]

Yes it's really only that Leipzig chorale that I'm enthusiastic about from Koopman. I haven't heard all 6 CDs but just picking stuff randomly hasn't come up with anything as striking as that chorale. (There's a Trio sonata, BWV 527, there which I keep listening too. I don't much care for the sound of the organ (or maybe it's the recording, or my lack of subwoofer.)  But the performance is interesting because it's not just fast and exuberant in the first movement. Still, I'm not as taken by it as the chorale)

In general, I find Koopman's manner of playing very suitable for the Trio Sonatas. His first recording (DG) is also worthwhile having.

http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Trio-Sonatas/dp/B0000057F4/

[....]
By the way someone ha offered to sell me 8 Kooiman CDs for about £10 each -- his first set not the SACDs -- including CU 3 and the Trio Sonatas. Should I buy them -- I mean, what should I do . . . ?

Well, they're OOP. And about 2 years ago I was offered € 100,-- myself to sell Kooiman's CU3, but I had to tell the wanna-be-buyer that I did not have the original issue, only a burned copy.
Both Ewald Kooiman's and Bram Beekman's CU3 (Lindenberg) are extremely difficult to grab, even in NL.

In the end, it's really just a matter of how much you would want those discs.
I think Kooiman's Bach is very impressive, and I know that Premont rates him high, too.
But we've experienced before that our tastes can differ .... 0:)

I would like to add this interesting 'bonus' though: the Trio Sonates were recorded on the Jan Harmensz Kamp organ (1716) of the Grote Kerk in Meppel (NL), which was completed and enlarged by Franz Caspar Schnitger (1721/1722). It's a beautiful instrument and alas rarely used for recordings.

Here's a small example, Kooiman playing the Fantasia in C-minor BWV 1121 (formerly known as Anhang II 45) on this Kamp/Schnitger organ:

http://www.mediafire.com/?o02n4e0v7d7uyw9

[Coopmv]

It might be helpful to mention that in the end I was completely turned of by Weinberger's set: a frustrating experience, offering historically correct approaches on wonderfull organs, but in the end Weinberger falls short on consistency, expressiveness and plain lack of personality. Too academic, too deliberate. 

Currently I'm totally enamored by Koopman's Teldec cycle (not depriciating his superb Novalis rec) and highly appreciate Vernet's (Ligia).

Q

I found the tempos by Weinberger on a number of CD's in the set a tad too slow for me.  Like you said, he falls short on consistency.  I like the Koopman's set much better and still have the third cycle by Marie-Claire Alain in shrinkwrap ...

[Mandryka]

Thanks for posting the Kooiman Marc. I'll listen today.

You know, one thing I find really inspiring about organ is that the musicians are like artisans. Some of the best music making happens from people who've recorded very little, often on obscure specialist labels.

Having said that I've made no progress getting any records by Zwoferink. No response at all from her distribution people. Same story for Wageningen.

[milk]

Listening to the CÜ-III right now... this time with Christoph Albrecht on the Silbermann Organ set which I find quite wonderful. Dignity (or gravitas? No... not quite the latter) and unhurried, despite brisk tempos that pull you right through the St. Anne. (The set is still a ridiculous bargain from Amazon.de, at €24.)

Speaking of the Silbermann Organ cycle: Aside factoid: The niece of Herbert Collum was my landlord, at one point.

I'm really enamored of these recordings. I put Otto and Albrecht together to make an almost-complete Ubung iii - although it would seem that the Silbermann set doesn't anywhere contain the four duets? I wonder why not.   

[Mandryka]

Having read this statement a bit closer I am surprised, that a well-educated Dutch organist can say this nonsense. The so called Dutch practice is not to play all notes unbound, but to group the notes in small unities or "cell´s", which can be played non-legato or strictly legato as well.  F.i. : in a group of three short notes played legato the first will seem to receive a small accent, even if this actually is impossible to do on an organ. But it feels so, it happens in our mind.  The "trick" is to be able to indicate the rhythm and distinguish between good and less good notes in this way. The first note under the bow also often receives a small agogoc accent (it is held a nanosec. too long) in order to support the impression of good note when wanted. The playing of Gustav Leonhardt among several others offers examples in abundance of this practice. Can Zwoferink be unaware of this? No, she can´t, and this is the reason why one has got to read her words with some reservation.

Sometimes I think I hear one trait the "Dutch" way of playing in the early Bach records from Walcha, like in the 1947 CU3, at least to this extent: he sometimes breaks up the music into  more or less small speech like cells, with relatively few notes in the same bow-stroke, to use your metaphor . And I also think sometimes that in the stereo recordings he articulates the music into longer lines, more notes under the same stroke of the bow. I'm not sure about this! Has anyone published anything interesting about his development between 1947 and 1970?

[Mandryka]

http://pipedreams.publicradio.org/articles/biographies/walcha_helmut.shtml

The link leads to an three unpublished live Walcha recordings, including him playing his own transcription of the Ricercar a 6, a performance from the 1970s. As far as I know it's the only record of him playing this.

There's also an early recording of him playing a Handel organ  concerto with his teacher Gunter Ramin. They play well together, kindred spirits. Really atrocious sound.

And there's  a record of Bwv 548, faster than his 1952 record I think.  I listen most to  his 1960s record of this so I haven't given it much attention. Generally I'm finding myself drawn to the later recordings more and more in fact.

Now I'd like to find a record of him playing Vivaldi/Bach.

[Marc]

Sometimes I think I hear one trait the "Dutch" way of playing in the early Bach records from Walcha [....]

http://pipedreams.publicradio.org/articles/biographies/walcha_helmut.shtml

The link leads to an three unpublished live Walcha recordings, including him playing his own transcription of the Ricercar a 6, a performance from the 1970s. As far as I know it's the only record of him playing this.

There's also an early recording of him playing a Handel organ  concerto with his teacher Gunter Ramin. They play well together, kindred spirits. Really atrocious sound.

And there's  a record of Bwv 548, faster than his 1952 record I think.  I listen most to  his 1960s record of this so I haven't given it much attention. Generally I'm finding myself drawn to the later recordings more and more in fact.

Now I'd like to find a record of him playing Vivaldi/Bach.

Have to say it's been quite a while since I last listened to Walcha, but I recall that I preferred his earlier mono performances, but at the same time his later stereo recordings.

Don't get me wrong though: I think the mono boxset is of good sound quality!
And my preferences for these performances are of course caused by the fact that I am Dutch.

[Mandryka]

Have to say it's been quite a while since I last listened to Walcha, but I recall that I preferred his earlier mono performances, but at the same time his later stereo recordings.

Don't get me wrong though: I think the mono boxset is of good sound quality!
And my preferences for these performances are of course caused by the fact that I am Dutch.

The first recordings are more striking in terms of registration, the stereo  more subtle. There's something which has really gotten under my skin in some of the stereo records, in 548 for example, and 543 too. (I like what Zwofferink does with 543 too, her CD finally came from her distributors, who sent it prior to payment. I'll just put the cash in the post)

I'm listening to a lot of Walcha right now, organ and harpsichord (especially the Chromatic Fantasy and fugue), Bach and Sweelinck (just one piece, but it's an interesting performance) Bach can take being played Walcha style, and the energetic intensity is fun.  And personally I don't find Walcha too buttoned up to make something fun to hear out of stylus fantasticus music.

[Mandryka]

Anton Heiller's Orgelbuchlein and Leipzig Chorales have been transfered and are available from here

http://klassichaus.us/Organ-Keyboard.php

I've only listened to the energetic and jollly and uplifting Orgelbuchlein so far. This is basically a  celebration of God. The sound is very good.

I first got to know this organist through a wonderful Ermitage CD. He really has a face, a character, without being obviously quirky.The Vanguard CD is one of my most played Bach compilation CDs

[Marc]

Anton Heiller's Orgelbuchlein and Leipzig Chorales have been transfered and are available from here

http://klassichaus.us/Organ-Keyboard.php

I've only listened to the energetic and jollly and uplifting Orgelbuchlein so far. This is basically a  celebration of God. The sound is very good.

I first got to know this organist through a wonderful Ermitage CD. He really has a face, a character, without being obviously quirky.The Vanguard CD is one of my most played Bach compilation CDs

Good!
I must admit that I prefer Heiller to Walcha and Kraft (to mention two other famous golden oldies).
I have Heiller's Orgelbüchlein, too, I love it, and I probably forgot to mention it when you asked for some recommendations last autumn .... or did I?

The same recommendation goes for the Leipzig Chorales, so 'your' link should be visited by many Bach organ freaks .... just my tuppence worth of course.

[milk]

I'm just skimming through the booklets on the Kooiman integral. But I don't see any answer to this question: Some people on the net
seem to say that Bach wasn't a fan of the Silbermanns. I am so taken with them. I just love them on the Kooiman and the Berlin sets. But I'm wondering what the rational is for playing on them. I'm also reading Christoph Wolff's Bach biography. But I haven't gotten far into it yet. Perhaps the answer will be there. Did Bach play often on Silbermann's? Did he dislike them? I see that Bach played at the dedication of a Silbermann in Dresden. I read somewhere that Kooiman didn't initially think they were appropriate but then changed his mind later in his life. I'm curious if anyone has anything to say on this subject. They are so distinctive sounding. I wonder if anyone can explain about this without being too technical. In the Kooiman booklet, there is no explanation of the rational for the series - as far as I can find. Are there any other organs that have qualities similar to the Silbermanns? I can't even say what it is exactly that I like about these instruments. There's a sweetness to them I guess...

[prémont]

I'm just skimming through the booklets on the Kooiman integral. But I don't see any answer to this question: Some people on the net
seem to say that Bach wasn't a fan of the Silbermanns. I am so taken with them. I just love them on the Kooiman and the Berlin sets. But I'm wondering what the rational is for playing on them. I'm also reading Christoph Wolff's Bach biography. But I haven't gotten far into it yet. Perhaps the answer will be there. Did Bach play often on Silbermann's? Did he dislike them? I see that Bach played at the dedication of a Silbermann in Dresden. I read somewhere that Kooiman didn't initially think they were appropriate but then changed his mind later in his life. I'm curious if anyone has anything to say on this subject. They are so distinctive sounding. I wonder if anyone can explain about this without being too technical. In the Kooiman booklet, there is no explanation of the rational for the series - as far as I can find. Are there any other organs that have qualities similar to the Silbermanns? I can't even say what it is exactly that I like about these instruments. There's a sweetness to them I guess...

You have to distinguish between the two Silbermann brothers, Gottfried and Andreas.

Gottfried Silbermann´s organs are very much cast in Middle-German baroque style and according to some well suited for the execution of Bach´s later organ works - along with organs by Trost and Hildebrandt. For Bach´s more youthful works composed at a time when he was stylistically influenced by Buxtehude and Reincken among others, the North-German organ type of Arp Schnitger may be better suited.

Andreas Silbermann and his son Johan Andreas Silberman built organs very much in French baroque organ style, and this is a kind of sound ideal, which may be more questionable in relation to Bach´s organ works. The organs have got a spendid sound, and I do not think Bach would have minded his works played on them. It is just that the Schnitger and Gottfried Silbermann organs sound more idiomatic.

[Coopmv]

Anton Heiller's Orgelbuchlein and Leipzig Chorales have been transfered and are available from here

http://klassichaus.us/Organ-Keyboard.php

I've only listened to the energetic and jollly and uplifting Orgelbuchlein so far. This is basically a  celebration of God. The sound is very good.

I first got to know this organist through a wonderful Ermitage CD. He really has a face, a character, without being obviously quirky.The Vanguard CD is one of my most played Bach compilation CDs

I have his Vanguard recording in the SACD format ...

[Coopmv]

Good!
I must admit that I prefer Heiller to Walcha and Kraft (to mention two other famous golden oldies).
I have Heiller's Orgelbüchlein, too, I love it, and I probably forgot to mention it when you asked for some recommendations last autumn .... or did I?

The same recommendation goes for the Leipzig Chorales, so 'your' link should be visited by many Bach organ freaks .... just my tuppence worth of course.

I like Walcha, though somewhat iffy with Kraft based on what I heard on his Buxtehude set on Vox ...

[milk]

You have to distinguish between the two Silbermann brothers, Gottfried and Andreas.

Gottfried Silbermann´s organs are very much cast in Middle-German baroque style and according to some well suited for the execution of Bach´s later organ works - along with organs by Trost and Hildebrandt. For Bach´s more youthful works composed at a time when he was stylistically influenced by Buxtehude and Reincken among others, the North-German organ type of Arp Schnitger may be better suited.

Andreas Silbermann and his son Johan Andreas Silberman built organs very much in French baroque organ style, and this is a kind of sound ideal, which may be more questionable in relation to Bach´s organ works. The organs have got a spendid sound, and I do not think Bach would have minded his works played on them. It is just that the Schnitger and Gottfried Silbermann organs sound more idiomatic.

Interesting. Thanks. Looks like the Kooiman set uses A and JA organs exclusively while the Berlin series uses Gottfried organs. I think the Gottfried ones impress me more - although the playing is not HIP and I've heard it said that the organs were unrestored at the time of these recordings. I'm interested in this issue of playing style as well, as I enjoy comparing recordings. I love the Berlin series, although the playing seems more straightforward and, perhaps, more focused on beauty (I was just comparing 664 today). Rogg also used a JA organ, while Bernard Foccroulle makes use of Gottfried organs on several CDs in his integral. 
So, it's the Gottfried organs that have that Silvery sound...

[Wakefield]

You have to distinguish between the two Silbermann brothers, Gottfried and Andreas.

Gottfried Silbermann´s organs are very much cast in Middle-German baroque style and according to some well suited for the execution of Bach´s later organ works - along with organs by Trost and Hildebrandt. For Bach´s more youthful works composed at a time when he was stylistically influenced by Buxtehude and Reincken among others, the North-German organ type of Arp Schnitger may be better suited.

Andreas Silbermann and his son Johan Andreas Silberman built organs very much in French baroque organ style, and this is a kind of sound ideal, which may be more questionable in relation to Bach´s organ works. The organs have got a spendid sound, and I do not think Bach would have minded his works played on them. It is just that the Schnitger and Gottfried Silbermann organs sound more idiomatic.

Excellent summary of the situation of the historic organs more suitable to Bach, in just five lines. 

[Mandryka]

I like Walcha, though somewhat iffy with Kraft based on what I heard on his Buxtehude set on Vox ...

Well what a carry on ! I rather like Kraft's Buxtehude -- he's so charming and warm and humane how could anyone not like what he does? I know the Bach less well. And I adore, adore, Walcha's final Orgelbuchlein. But I can't explain why. (Did he make three records of it?)

While I'm here, I'm going to plug Rubsam's Naxos Leipzig Chorales, which are just wonderful -- my favourite of all his Bach organ records I think. But like so many of these special recordings, you have to take them for what they are, you've got to be willing to enter into their world.  As soon as I engage in comparative listening the magic goes away. Funny that.

Oh and that book on Walcha that I mentioned here a few weeks ago is well worth reading, even though, as premont said, it's a bit short on discussion of his ideas. It's so naively written, by people who obviously just loved the man and his music making, it's just a joy to be with from first page to last. The sort of child like love the author seems to have for Walcha makes the hagiographical tendency very endearing for me.  And it's in French -- which makes it even better of course.

[Marc]

I like Walcha, though somewhat iffy with Kraft based on what I heard on his Buxtehude set on Vox ...

Well, maybe Walcha and Heiller are more consistent than Kraft, but I think that Kraft can be quite exciting and convincing.

[....]
So, it's the Gottfried organs that have that Silvery sound...

Yeah, compared to the 'French' Silbermanns, I agree.
Still, IMO, 'Gottfried' sounds more 'granular' than the Schnitgers.

The more south you go, the more bronze those baroque organs seem to sound.
I particularly love the reed stops of the more southern organs, how they growl and grumble.

But in the end I (slightly) prefer the clarity of the northern baroque organ-type, like the Schnitgers and other examples of Northern German and Dutch instruments.

Here's the famous/notorious Toccata con Fuga ex d-moll BWV 565, played by Bernard Foccroulle, on the Dutch baroque organ of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam, built in 1655 by Hans Wolf Schonat and expanded some years later by Roelof Barentsz Duyschot and Jacobus Galtusz van Hagerbeer:

http://www.youtube.com/v/PeKMsCIZ2rQ

[milk]

Well, maybe Walcha and Heiller are more consistent than Kraft, but I think that Kraft can be quite exciting and convincing.

Yeah, compared to the 'French' Silbermanns, I agree.
Still, IMO, 'Gottfried' sounds more 'granular' than the Schnitgers.

The more south you go, the more bronze those baroque organs seem to sound.
I particularly love the reed stops of the more southern organs, how they growl and grumble.

But in the end I (slightly) prefer the clarity of the northern baroque organ-type, like the Schnitgers and other examples of Northern German and Dutch instruments.

Here's the famous/notorious Toccata con Fuga ex d-moll BWV 565, played by Bernard Foccroulle, on the Dutch baroque organ of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam, built in 1655 by Hans Wolf Schonat and expanded some years later by Roelof Barentsz Duyschot and Jacobus Galtusz van Hagerbeer:

Thanks for more clarification. Well, I'm making it a point to pay attention to the Schnitgers on the Foccroulle recordings today. This 565 is stirring!