J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Mandryka]

I checked out some of Mme. Alain's recordings on YouTube.  I had probably heard recordings of her before, but I had forgotten just how great she is!  Flawless musicianship and a humble approach that reminded me a little of some of the old Albert Schweitzer recordings (although Schweitzer's tempos were much slower).  I was also impressed at her visual presence: no excess motion but not stiff either, just enough movement to get the notes played.  She was a great master.

What you have in Schweitzer is this kind of feeling, always, that the music's a procession for honoured dignitaries. It's so noble in style, too noble for me. You don't get that with Alain, thank goodness.

I played a trio sonata yesterday, just to compare Alain 2 and Koopman. It's astonishing how much control these organists have over the music they make. Even putting aside things like articulation and ornamentation, where every performer can exercise discretion, the instrument itself, and the way the registration effects the balance of the sound, is extraordinary.

[Mandryka]

Here's my playlist of Chorales from CU 3.

669 Koopman (Novalis), Rubsam (Naxos), MC Alain (3rd series), Weinberger
670 Koopman (Novalis), Rubsam (Naxos), Nordstoga, Weinberger
671 Koopman (Novalis), Rubsam (Naxos), Ménissier, Weinberger
672 Rubsam (Naxos), Jens Christensen
673 Rubsam (Naxos)
674 Rubsam (Naxos), Jens Christensen
675 Rogg, Walcha (Stereo)
676 Rubsam (Naxos)
677 Astronio
678 Marie Claire Alain (2nd Series)
679 Walter Kraft
680 Leo van Doeselaar
681 Hans Fagius
682 Jens Christensen, Weinberger, Astronio
683 Claudio Astronio
684 Leo van Doesalaar
685 Hans Fagius
686
687
688 Rubsam (Naxos), Ton Koopman (Novalis)
689 Gustav Leonhardt

I still haven't found a satisfying recording for 686, and the whole process of searching was so disappointing that I can't bring myself to think about 687, which has the same cantus firmus. I really need to revisit the first six at least, it was a mistake to try to listen to three chorales at a time. But I'm back at work now, so it'll have to wait.

[Marc]

[....]
I still haven't found a satisfying recording for 686, and the whole process of searching was so disappointing that I can't bring myself to think about 687, which has the same cantus firmus. [....]

What's the problem?

BWV 686 is a one verse composition, as most of Bach's chorale preludes. A well-known exception is BWV 656 (3 verses of "O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig").

Given the (very) heavy character of BWV 686, I personally think that only the first verse of the hymn (based on psalm 130) is meant to be expressed.
(One a sidenote: the 2nd verse is kind of a transition towards God's clemency. In the verses 3-5 the ultimale hope in God's goodness and pardon is elaborated. See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale085-Eng3.htm.)

In the last lines of the first verse the poet writes about a God who might only remember our sins. Because of that, no man will be able to remain and face Him. Summarized: penance without reconciliation (yet!).
Many performances that I know/heard of this piece are rather good in expressing this depressing fear of the sinful man. So I would say there are quite some good recordings of this piece (HIP or not), like Van Wageningen, Kooiman (Coronata), Koopman (Novalis/Brilliant - even considering some ornamentations), Corti and many many more.

[Mandryka]

The problem was the heaviness of it, Marc. I haven't heard Van Wageningen or Kooiman (did you ever upload the Kooiman? if so I'll have it, but not tagged with the performer because it was a blind listening) I'll check out again Koopman's Novalis one.

Maybe I just don't like the music. Mind you, I liked Doeselaar's 680, which is also heavy. Maybe I just needed to give it a break.

[Marc]

The problem was the heaviness of it, Marc. I haven't heard Van Wageningen or Kooiman (did you ever upload the Kooiman? if so I'll have it, but not tagged with the performer because it was a blind listening) I'll check out again Koopman's Novalis one.

Maybe I just don't like the music. Mind you, I liked Doeselaar's 680, which is also heavy. Maybe I just needed to give it a break.

You know what: it's my favourite Bach-organ-chorale! I can listen to it over and over again.

It causes me goosebumps and sometimes I feel really horrified and can only endure it with clenched teeth. Probably because I denied God during my pedantic teenage years, after some 16 years of thorough belief. 

And even in this miserable and hopeless state, I have the feeling that JSB understands me, even though he himself remained a true disciple of God.

Soli Bacho Gloria.

Do not get me wrong though: I'm only guessing about the one-verse-thing. It's questionable. I know for instance that scholar Peter Williams thinks this piece is an expression of the entire hymn/psalm (au contraire de BWV 38 - opening chorus). But the strange thing is that I do not know a performance that really offers the 'happy ending' .... or do I? On second thought: maybe the hopeful ending is possible, if one considers the powerful last bars as an expression of the strength and willpower of man to keep his faith in a merciful God. And yes, it is true that I sometimes, almost automatically, ball my fists whilst listening to the closure of this piece.

Come to think of it, that doesn't sound bad at all. It even makes some sense. Something strange must have happened to me

[Sammy]

In BWV 686, I find Rogg and Suzuki highly satisfying.

[milk]

I listened to a bunch of these tonight, just to follow along (Messori, Johannsen, Weinberger). I liked Christoph Albrecht on the Silbermann series the best. I like the sound of the different voices. This is very heavy music.   

[SonicMan46]

Well, I've gone through 5 discs of the box below and really enjoying her playing (not fussy @ all) and the organs she has selected - Dave

[Mandryka]

Re 686, I'd always seen it as a commentary on the whole hymn, and so on the emotional level we need a movement from a cry of dispair through abjection to faith restored. This performance by Pierre Cochereau, never released commercially as far as I know,  seems very close to the mark emotionally.


http://www.youtube.com/v/EFw1QlCM35I

It's much better than the performance which was released on a Solstice CD.

The problem I have with some of the performances mentioned, Albrecht in included, is that they play it like a bravura organ piece. I don't connect at all with them emotionally and so I get a bit bored. Cochereau is clearly deeply moved by the music.

[Mandryka]

I listened to a bunch of these tonight, just to follow along (Messori, Johannsen, Weinberger). I liked Christoph Albrecht on the Silbermann series the best. I like the sound of the different voices. This is very heavy music.

Some performances are lighter - Herrick for example, and Vad, and Rogg and Hurford.  I don't find them specially interesting.

Unfortunately they seem to me to have zero to do with any sentiment expressed in Luther's hymn, which is a mistake I think. I think that these chorales are a sort of exegesis.

[jlaurson]

Some performances are lighter - Herrick for example, and Vad, and Rogg.  I don't find them specially interesting.

Unfortunately they seem to me to have zero to do with any sentiment expressed in Luther's hymn, which is a mistake I think. I think that these chorales are a sort of exegesis.

I, for one, would like a version that starts in a tempo that would strike me as singable... but then settles in contemplative mood and rhythmic stability, spiritual ease...

Have plenty to check out and might report back when I find something particularly lovely.

[Marc]

I, for one, would like a version that starts in a tempo that would strike me as singable... but then settles in contemplative mood and rhythmic stability, spiritual ease...
[....]

I immediately thought of Bram Beekman, but, alas, Out Of Print!

[....]
The problem I have with some of the performances mentioned, Albrecht in included, is that they play it like a bravura organ piece. I don't connect at all with them emotionally and so I get a bit bored. Cochereau is clearly deeply moved by the music.

I must say that, from (almost) all BWV 686 performances that I've listened to, the description 'bravura' never came to my mind. In some cases I thought 'mannerism' (Kei Koito) or 'detached' (Suzuki), but never 'showing off virtuosity'.

Au contraire .... well, my own experiences with this piece and its recordings were described in my earlier post.

The Cochereau performance is too sticky for my likings, it reminds me a bit of the late romantic view upon Bach (Mengelberg might have liked it) and I find the organ and the registration rather non-appealing (it makes the piece almost ruthless sometimes), but one can sense that Cocherau is deeply moved by this composition.

Anyway, I decided to upload the Cor van Wageningen recording (again), because I think it's an interesting one (though not the 'Final Word') and apparently it's very difficult to get in touch with the record label if one doesn't live in NL.
Van Wageningen's playing the Schnitger et al organ of the Martinikerk, Groningen, NL. It's a long performance: over 8 minutes, and it's not very HIP.

I hope the link works all right.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldmjmpgv81wldra/S%200686%20-%20CvW.mp3

[PaulSC]

BWV 686 involves two voices played on the pedals. (It's not the only Bach chorale prelude with this feature, but perhaps someone can confirm my hunch that it is uncommon.) One of these voices plays the chorale phrases; below this, the other plays a bass that participates in the freely imitative texture. This is probably one of the reasons the music seems so "heavy."

[Mandryka]

I must say that, from (almost) all BWV 686 performances that I've listened to, the description 'bravura' never came to my mind. In some cases I thought 'mannerism' (Kei Koito) or 'detached' (Suzuki), but never 'showing off virtuosity'.

The reason I said bravura -- maybe the wrong word -- but the thought behind it was this. Fist, the music's technically demanding. Second, it seems hard to give it symbolic meaning. Third, the poetry behind nearly every performance I've heard eludes me. I wonder what else there is to a performance like Koopman's Novalis or Foccroulle's  other than to say "here's a very complicated piece of music which I can play" Anyway your comment has made me curious to hear Kei Koito again.

The Cochereau performance is too sticky for my likings, it reminds me a bit of the late romantic view upon Bach (Mengelberg might have liked it) and I find the organ and the registration rather non-appealing (it makes the piece almost ruthless sometimes), but one can sense that Cocherau is deeply moved by this composition.

Yes well it was only on the emotional plan that I thought it was interesting really. Though I have to say that I'm not too sold on any of the more rhetorical performances that I've heard, for reasons stated. Isn't the raison d'être of a more articulated style to reveal something poetic and meaningful? If so, then I say Cochereau's legato gives the Dutch school some serious competition in this chorale.

I'd quite like to see a rhetorical analysis of BWV 686. Is there one in Williams? I keep wondering whether to buy his book.

Anyway, I decided to upload the Cor van Wageningen recording (again), because I think it's an interesting one (though not the 'Final Word') and apparently it's very difficult to get in touch with the record label if one doesn't live in NL.
Van Wageningen's playing the Schnitger et al organ of the Martinikerk, Groningen, NL. It's a long performance: over 8 minutes, and it's not very HIP.

I hope the link works all right.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldmjmpgv81wldra/S%200686%20-%20CvW.mp3

That's very very kind of you. Can't wait to hear it.

BWV 686 involves two voices played on the pedals. (It's not the only Bach chorale prelude with this feature, but perhaps someone can confirm my hunch that it is uncommon.) One of these voices plays the chorale phrases; below this, the other plays a bass that participates in the freely imitative texture. This is probably one of the reasons the music seems so "heavy."

I think part of the problem is that much of the music isn't very animated -- it becomes more lively at the end but most of it is relatively leaden. That combined with the massive monochrome organum plenum registration that so many of them choose. Contrast BWV 671, which seems lively throughout. 

[Marc]

[....]
I think part of the problem is that much of the music isn't very animated -- it becomes more lively at the end but most of it is relatively leaden. That combined with the massive monochrome organum plenum registration that so many of them choose. Contrast BWV 671, which seems lively throughout.

I don't think that the organists choose for plenum registration themselves. This is one of those rare printed compositions of J.S. Bach, with instructions from the composer himself: in Organo pleno con Pedalo doppio.

To me, this composition itself, in organo pleno, is already so emotionally gripping , that I do not need that many interpretation.
It just seems that Mandryka's and my emotional needs for this piece are totally different. I look at it as a huge and deep cry of penitence and the organo pleno seems completely understandable to me: Aus tiefer Not schrei ich zu dir. It's not a whisper, it's the desperate scream of a sinful man. And the more explicit expressive ending could be read as the final and strong belief that God is good and can make man strong again (if one believes that the piece symbolizes the entire 5 verse hymn).

[milk]

Maybe Johannsen is lighter also. Rubsam seems to be the antithesis of light. At the same time, the registration is as full-on as any of them. He's so slow it's crushing. But I'm liking Messori, also quite slow, a lot upon second listen. To me, they are more like each other and different from Suzuki, Weinberger and Walcha, who seem a little more detached. This is a crazy piece of music to listen to over and over again. What can I listen to that's, like, the opposite of this?

[Mandryka]

Maybe Johannsen is lighter also. Rubsam seems to be the antithesis of light. At the same time, the registration is as full-on as any of them. He's so slow it's crushing. But I'm liking Messori, also quite slow, a lot upon second listen. To me, they are more like each other and different from Suzuki, Weinberger and Walcha, who seem a little more detached. This is a crazy piece of music to listen to over and over again. What can I listen to that's, like, the opposite of this?

I too very much enjoyed Messori's 689 at the start. It really sounds like a desparate cry, I remember being strapped to my seat the first time I heard it, like someone was there in front of me, in dispair. When I was listening to a lot if CU 3 over the Christmas/ New Year period, Messori's was  probably the version I liked the most apart from that Cochereau on youtube that I posted. At the time  I was less impressed by the way he developed the music, the music in the middle of the chorale seemed a bit overbearing.

What I would really like to hear is to hear Leo van Droeselaar playing it. He does magic things sometimes, and I have a feeling that this music is right up his steet.

[Marc]

Mandryka, you mention BWV 689, but I think one should read 686. Right?

If so, check out (or buy) this one: Van Doeselaar playing the 'grand' chorales of the Clavierübung 3.



http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kyrie-Gott-Vater-Ewigkeit-Doeselaar/dp/B00000JPYK/

http://www.channelclassics.com/kyrie-gott-vater-in-ewigkeit.html

I like the entire disc, and I like the Hagerbeer/Schnitger in Alkmaar NL very much, too.



But .... we seem to have different taste, so remember, if you take my advice .... don't forget it's risky!

[prémont]

I like the entire disc, and I like the Hagerbeer/Schnitger in Alkmaar NL very much, too.

I also like the Alkmaar organ, but that is another matter. Van Doeselaar´s CÜ III is recorded on the Hans Heinrich Bader organ,
St. Walburgiskerk, Zutphen, NL. 

[Marc]

I also like the Alkmaar organ, but that is another matter. Van Doeselaar´s CÜ III is recorded on the Hans Heinrich Bader organ,
St. Walburgiskerk, Zutphen, NL. 

Yep.
My mistake.

Just listened to Van Doeselaar in BWV 686 and my guess is: not Mandryka's taste.
Personally, I think it's OK, but even I wouldn't rank this performance among my favourites. I would have preferred a better balance between higher principal and heavy reed stops. Van Doeselaar's playing in this piece isn't one of the heaviest, but his registration is.
And maybe a tad slower would have provided more clarity, because of the (like Alkmaar ) very spatial church acoustics in Zutphen.