The Evidence Of The Hardcore Wagnerian

[PSmith08]

Yes it is true, there is precedence, 'The Pauline Convertion' and if any composer can inspire it anew, it would be have to be Wagner. It sure ain't gonna be Sullivan.

Mike

Beyond that, at the risk of revealing a state secret, our correspondent isn't exactly noted for being rigidly consistent.

[knight66]

I am sure a little drop of waterboarding would determine whether he was wavering. On the issue of words not being relevent other than to allow singers to contribute abstract sounds to the picture......I have not seen Eric shift by one Iota.

Mike

[karlhenning]

. . . In fact, despite your assertions of having adored Wagner (or anything else) since you were 16, I have to think that you've not actually done anything more than listened to a record and said "My, isn't this nice?"

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I am sure a little drop of waterboarding would determine whether he was wavering. On the issue of words not being relevent other than to allow singers to contribute abstract sounds to the picture......I have not seen Eric shift by one Iota.

No;  stones will evolve into sentience first.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

No;  stones will evolve into sentience first.

They did. And they're still touring.

[mn dave]

I am sure a little drop of waterboarding would determine whether he was wavering. On the issue of words not being relevent other than to allow singers to contribute abstract sounds to the picture......I have not seen Eric shift by one Iota.

Mike

Well, that was like me, really. I didn't know what they were singing, so I treated it as "sound."

[karlhenning]

They did. And they're still touring.

I'll never be your beast of burden.

[karlhenning]

Well, that was like me, really. I didn't know what they were singing, so I treated it as "sound."

Do you remember to bring your towel to the sonic bath? 

[mn dave]

Do you remember to bring your towel to the sonic bath? 

That boy needs some Stokowski.

[DavidRoss]

Well, that was like me, really. I didn't know what they were singing, so I treated it as "sound."

And me.  Sometimes I do know what they're singing shrieking, and regard it as so stupid that I prefer hearing it as just sound.  Works for P&M, too.  And for Eric's posts, which are so much better if one can ignore their content (or lack of same) and just enjoy the patterns of pixels.

[mn dave]

And me.  Sometimes I do know what they're singing shrieking, and regard it as so stupid that I prefer hearing it as just sound.

Amen, brutha.

[DavidRoss]

Do you remember to bring your towel to the sonic bath? 

My sonic bath provides exquisitely embroidered towels to the clientele.

[karlhenning]

Sometimes I do know what they're singing shrieking, and regard it as so stupid that I prefer hearing it as just sound.

Amen, brutha.

I profit from listening to and thinking about Wagner's libretti from time to time;  it is a lesson in the artistic limitations of even a musical genius, and a caution against unedited egoism.

[DavidRoss]

I profit from listening to and thinking about Wagner's libretti from time to time;  it is a lesson in the artistic limitations of even a musical genius, and a caution against unedited egoism.

Yeah, too bad da Ponte was dead, he probably could've made something grand out of that material--and intentionally funny, as well!

[Sergeant Rock]

And me.  Sometimes I do know what they're singing shrieking, and regard it as so stupid that I prefer hearing it as just sound.  Works for P&M, too.  And for Eric's posts, which are so much better if one can ignore their content (or lack of same) and just enjoy the patterns of pixels.

And yet you, MnDave, and Karl (to a lesser extent) basically agree with Eric...that the words are unimportant. And you are definitely not hardcore Wagnerians...which is my contention about Eric: that he's no Wagnerian, in any sense.

I'm not going to try to convince you of Wagner's genius, not only as a composer but as a writer of drama (I gave up proselytizing many moons ago). I'll just say his works concern love, sin, redemption and are not in the least silly despite the fact his characters are sometimes mythical and almost always archetypal.

Sarge

[DavidRoss]

And yet you, MnDave, and Karl (to a lesser extent) basically agree with Eric...that the words are unimportant. And you are definitely not hardcore Wagnerians...which is my contention about Eric: that he's no Wagnerian, in any sense.

I'm not going to try to convince you of Wagner's genius, not only as a composer but as a writer of drama (I gave up proselytizing many moons ago). I'll just say his works concerns love, sin, redemption and are not in the least silly despite the fact his characters are sometimes mythical and almost always archetypal.

You mistake my meaning, Sarge.  I think the words are very important, and I think the thematic intent of the Ring is admirable...I just think Wagner was a lousy librettist and a shoddy craftsman, and that his egocentric excesses mitigated against his artistic success. 

[Hector]

This thread is akin to the tourists that visited Bedlam in the 18th century to 'marvel' at the mad.

They were not allowed to poke them with pointed sticks, though

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I think I am going to be hardcore against both Operahaven and the Wagner lovers who are bashing his librettos.

To appreciate the librettos, to see where they are flawed and where they still 'work' remarkably well, it helps to know German - although Wagner's German is dated and often intentionally archaic - and to know the dramatic tradition(s) to which Wagner belongs. If you don't know your Greek tragedians (AND Aristophanes), Shakespeare, Schiller, Goethe, Racine and Caldéron (to mention only the most important), you won't be able to place Wagner nor what he was trying to achieve.

I personally like reading (verse) drama, so I don't have any problem with reading Wagner's. Seen from a purely literary perspective, yes, his dramas are flawed, stylistically and sometimes also dramatically, but that is because the librettos are also 'pretexts', literally, for music. And Thomas Mann has pointed out that Wagner often is more epic than dramatic and that his operas could be seen as German counterparts to the great 19th-century novels.

Anyone who is interested and able to read German, should read Dieter Borchmeyer's Das Theater Richard Wagners (don't know if it has been translated).

Edit: I see Sarge has written something with which I concur.

[Sergeant Rock]

You mistake my meaning, Sarge.  I think the words are very important...

Understood. We'll agree to differ then (on the quality of the words and the merits of the libretti).

Sarge

[jochanaan]

...Wagner's German is dated and often intentionally archaic...

And even that is not always a fault.  One of my favorite (literary) authors is William Morris (also inventor of the Morris chair), who in three great fantasy novels used a positively Medieval English that had next to no relation to current parlance of the 1890s when he wrote them.  Consider also (brace yourselves!) Tolkien's rather archaic language in The Lord of the Rings.

[DavidRoss]

And even that is not always a fault.  One of my favorite (literary) authors is William Morris (also inventor of the Morris chair), who in three great fantasy novels used a positively Medieval English that had next to no relation to current parlance of the 1890s when he wrote them.  Consider also (brace yourselves!) Tolkien's rather archaic language in The Lord of the Rings.

Hear, hear!