The Evidence Of The Hardcore Wagnerian

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I wouldn't mind. Give me some time (I also want listen to various performances for the sake of comparison).

Marke's monologue is a bit similar to those of Gurnemanz in Parsifal - an ebb and flow of sometimes rather bare, bald passages and more lyrical ones, with one leitmotif dominant. Think especially of Gurnemanz' monologue in the Third Act where he tells about what has happened to the Grail community, where what is sometimes referred to as the Öde-motiv (Sterility motif) binds the whole thing together.

[David Zalman]

I swore I'd never again post in this "moron's sandbox," as a friend of mine has characterized GMG, but these last few posts by Jezetha on Marke's monologue have been so knowledgeable and perceptive, even poetical, that I can't resist conveying my kudos.  All by themselves those posts redeem the existence of this entire moronic thread; a thread instigated by the most perverse notion imaginable in connection with Wagner's music-dramas, and a thread that should have died with its very first post.

My hat's off to you, Jezetha, along with my thanks.

David

[DavidRoss]

Zalman-Douglas!  Have you met Rod Corkin yet?  You guys have a lot in common!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I swore I'd never again post in this "moron's sandbox," as a friend of mine has characterized GMG, but these last few posts by Jezetha on Marke's monologue have been so knowledgeable and perceptive, even poetical, that I can't resist conveying my kudos.  All by themselves those posts redeem the existence of this entire moronic thread; a thread instigated by the most perverse notion imaginable in connection with Wagner's music-dramas, and a thread that should have died with its very first post.

My hat's off to you, Jezetha, along with my thanks.

David

I'm flattered... Thank you.

[karlhenning]

The Sock-Puppet Speaks!

[(poco) Sforzando]

  Well you are entitled to your opinion  . However,  in line with the title of this thread, is it fair for me to deduce from the sentence you posted above in bold (pun intended  ) that you are not a hardcore Wagnerian? 

  marvin

If being a "hardcore Wagnerian" means I worship every musical and verbal utterance from the Meister's pen uncritically, then I am not a hardcore Wagnerian. But I do consider Wagner among the greatest composers since Beethoven, though I admit I do not turn to his music nearly as often as I did 20-30 years ago.

[Sergeant Rock]

The Sock-Puppet Speaks!

While I am deeply disappointed and saddened that DZ lacks the moral and ethical fiber to stand by his resolve to give this moronic forum a wide berth, I concur with his praise of Jezetha's insightful and finely worded argument...while still finding Marke's music boring. tedious and protracted to a needless degree. Where was Franz Schalk when we really needed him? 

Sarge

[(poco) Sforzando]

I concur with his praise of Jezetha's insightful and finely worded argument...while still finding Marke's music boring. tedious and protracted to a needless degree.

Exactly.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I swore I'd never again post in this "moron's sandbox" . . .

Don't you mean "morons' sandbox"? After all, given your contempt (and your "friend's") towards the membership here, I would assume you do not intend to single out any one of us as the GMG Moron, but rather would prefer to paint all of us with the same broad brush.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Poor Marke - losing your wife, losing your friend, losing your listeners.

[Sergeant Rock]

Poor Marke - losing your wife, losing your friend, losing your listeners.

If his music is any indication of his bedroom skills, I understand perfectly why Isolde cheated 

Sarge

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

If his music is any indication of his bedroom skills, I understand perfectly why Isolde cheated 

Cruel, cruel.

[mn dave]

Don't you mean "morons' sandbox"?

What a moron.

[Anne]

I wouldn't mind. Give me some time (I also want listen to various performances for the sake of comparison).

Marke's monologue is a bit similar to those of Gurnemanz in Parsifal - an ebb and flow of sometimes rather bare, bald passages and more lyrical ones, with one leitmotif dominant. Think especially of Gurnemanz' monologue in the Third Act where he tells about what has happened to the Grail community, where what is sometimes referred to as the Öde-motiv (Sterility motif) binds the whole thing together.

Thank you, Jezetha.  I appreciate your kindness.

[PerfectWagnerite]

If his music is any indication of his bedroom skills, I understand perfectly why Isolde cheated 

Sarge

Marke never bedded Isolde according to him (and he has no reason to lie):

Der mein Wille
nie zu nahen wagte,
der mein Wunsch
ehrfurchtscheu entsagte,

or

She, whom I could never
dare approach,
she for whom I
foreswore my desires

[Josquin des Prez]

though I admit I do not turn to his music nearly as often as I did 20-30 years ago.

Wow, i haven't even lived that long. I gleam many years of Wagnerism ahead now that i have discovered this composer.

[DavidRoss]

Wow, i haven't even lived that long. I gleam many years of Wagnerism ahead now that i have discovered this composer.

Thank you.  That explains so much.

[Chaszz]

I come and go for extended periods here and had not seen this topic until tonight. Although by this time the discussion has predictably wandered away from the main topic, I'd just like to weigh in with my two cents on that topic. I think the original poster hit the nail on the head and I agree with him that Wagner's libretti are not worthy of their music. The music is far deeper and more profound than the literary, political and philosophical ideas the composer was trying to express. He DOES express his views and ideas, and he DOES tell his stories, and he DOES use myths interestingly, but in general the music far surpasses these stories, plots and and ideas. As a literary artist he would have sunk out of sight long ago. I am grateful to his literary imagination for stimulating the musical ideas of the operas. There is ample evidence he could not write great music without literary ideas to fuel it. But I would no more highly honor the finished literary aspects of these works than I would eat the frying pan along with the omelette. 

I'm only expressing this view and agreeing with the originator of the thread. I don't mind discussion, but I'm not interested in defending this idea to the death against any intense absolutists. It's only my opinion, not a law of the universe. There is a Usenet group called humanities.music.composers.wagner, available on google groups, where the regulars are mostly otherwise convinced, and will defend their views vociferously, until someone brings up the plot of Gotterdammerung. That one is pretty hard for anyone to defend. One of these regulars, who maintains that the literary and musical aspects of the operas are absolutely inseparable from one another, even in thought, is a well known web crackpot who likes to defend his ideas by calling anyone who disagrees with them an idiot. Since he is an anointed creator and enforcer of actual genuine laws of the universe, I generally prefer to stay away from debate with him. 

[karlhenning]

. . . Wagner's libretti are not worthy of their music. The music is far deeper and more profound than the literary, political and philosophical ideas the composer was trying to express.

Even that is a more respectable and defensible idea than the OP troubled with.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

For those interested - "Wagner's Ring in Andrew Porter's English", a review from the journal 19-th Century Music:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?0yb9bspfsbn