The Evidence Of The Hardcore Wagnerian

[David Zalman]

There is a Usenet group called humanities.music.composers.wagner, available on google groups, where the regulars are mostly otherwise convinced, and will defend their views vociferously, until someone brings up the plot of Gotterdammerung. That one is pretty hard for anyone to defend. One of these regulars, who maintains that the literary and musical aspects of the operas are absolutely inseparable from one another, even in thought, is a well known web crackpot who likes to defend his ideas by calling anyone who disagrees with them an idiot. Since he is an anointed creator and enforcer of actual genuine laws of the universe, I generally prefer to stay away from debate with him. 

From the Google Usenet newsgroup, humanities.music.composers.wagner, the relevant post by the "well known web crackpot who likes to defend his ideas by calling anyone who disagrees with them an idiot" in response to a poster who expressed much the same opinion about Wagner's libretti as Chaszz:

In one respect you're not too far wrong as in Wagner's music-dramas (i.e.,
those works subsequent to _Lohengrin_) the core of the drama resides within
the orchestra, the text (libretto) acting as the armature about which that
drama is constructed, and providing those concrete details of plot and
narrative that music alone is incapable of communicating.  But one misses
rather a lot by missing the organic unity of text and music so incomparably
achieved by Wagner.

Wagner, as you may already know, thought extremely highly of his "poems" as
he called his libretti, but after composing the music for _Rheingold_ to
complete its already written text, [Wagner] averred that he could no longer bear to
read the text alone as it now struck him as empty and devoid of meaning
without its music.

And so it is.

---
ACD
http://www.soundsandfury.com/

Yep.  Sounds like a regular Web crackpot to me.

[knight66]

Chaszz, I agree with your views. I don't believe more than a tiny handful of people would be reading Wagner's poetics, if they had not been allied to the music. But they are indivisible as they fed off one another. So, for example, the bits of Siegfried that leave me cold are the downside of the stretches that engage me.

I know what you mean about how some people cannot imagine the works as other than perfect and we have experience of their approach to those who disagree with them. It can be tiresome.

Mike

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I don't like to be associated with 'crackpots', but in this case I make an exception. What is there to disagree with? Even Wagner knew that his libretti were only half of a synthesis. The point is - his music has aged less than his texts, although they are more than adequate vehicles for that same music, as someone like the poet and Strauss librettist Hugo von Hofmannsthal saw too, and not without envy.

[DavidRoss]

Yep.  Sounds like a regular Web crackpot to me. [after quoting his alter ego, intended sarcastically and contemptuously]

What makes you think that Chassz (another sock puppet?) was referring to you when he addressed "a well known web crackpot who likes to defend his ideas by calling anyone who disagrees with them an idiot? "  I agree, however, that you're just a "regular web crackpot" and not a well-known one.

As for idiocy...well...let's just say that whenever you quote or link to one of your blog entries, thinking that it demonstrates such profound wit and insight that we mere mortals will thereafter grovel at your feet like wretched Nibelungen cringing before Alberich, the passage unfailingly contains only sophomoric commonplaces expressed in prose so pompous and graceless and sneeringly supercilious that one can't help but imagine your poor parents wringing their hands and asking, "Where did we go wrong?"

See Jezetha's post above for an example of intelligent expression of a simple idea--and in a second language, too!

By the way, Johan, I trust the review of Porter's translation you linked to noted its appalling faithlessness to the original text...?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

By the way, Johan, I trust the review of Porter’s translation you linked to noted its appalling faithlessness to the original text...?

Read it and find out for yourself... It's an interesting piece.

But - faithlessness = literary quality, you mean?! 

[David Zalman]

What makes you think that Chassz (another sock puppet?) was referring to you when he addressed "a well known web crackpot who likes to defend his ideas by calling anyone who disagrees with them an idiot? "  I agree, however, that you're just a "regular web crackpot" and not a well-known one.

But he wasn't referring to me.  He was clearly referring to ACD as ACD's infamous on that Google newsgroup (humanities.music.composers.wagner) for calling a spade a spade, and an idiot an idiot.  He has, however, never to my knowledge called anyone an idiot merely for disagreeing with what he had to say.  Only an idiot would do that.

As for idiocy...well...let's just say that whenever you quote or link to one of your blog entries, thinking that it demonstrates such profound wit and insight that we mere mortals will thereafter grovel at your feet....

I have no blog on which to make entries.   And what I quoted a few posts above was not a blog entry, but the relevant ACD post from the Google newsgroup, humanities.music.composers.wagner, to which Chassz referred.  It was easy to find as ACD is the only poster I've ever read who uses the term "armature" to describe the text (libretto) of a Wagner music drama.  I simply went to the newsgroup, typed "armature" in the search box, and, Voila!, up came the relevant post.

As for the rest of your ignorant remarks (namely, all those I didn't quote above), I'm tempted to reply with the one-word reply that ACD would use in response, but I just don't have the heart for it.

[DavidRoss]

But he wasn't referring to me.  He was clearly referring to ACD as ACD's infamous on that Google newsgroup (humanities.music.composers.wagner) for calling a spade a spade, and an idiot an idiot.  He has, however, never to my knowledge called anyone an idiot merely for disagreeing with what he had to say.  Only an idiot would do that.

D Zalman = AC Douglas.  I'd say that you/he are infamous for pompous idiocy, but there's a lot of competition for the title.  You really should look up Rod Corkin...he has his own Forum!

Johan--I meant faithlessness to the text--his Ring isn't so much a translation as a collection of interpolations!

[David Zalman]

D Zalman = AC Douglas.

Idiot.

(Damn, that felt good!  Should have done that long ago.  Lord knows, this ignorant twit has given me more than sufficient justification.)

[knight66]

I don't think either of you should claim justification for your own behaviour through the behaviour of the other. In deciding to break the rules here; you made your own decisions.

Please try sticking to the ideas, leave the personalities out of it would you.

Quoting someone else's opinion as this forum being the "moron's or morons' sandbox" whether your own insult or not, we know perfectly well it is your opinion. Kindly keep it to yourself, or alternatively, feel free to stay away. In the main you clearly just lurk in case Wagner or your mentor is denigrated, then leap in with insults that are barely veiled. You are not some kind of policemen here. Either be civil or ship out.

Knight

[marvinbrown]

  Gentlemen, Wagner fans and critics......... please! I think we are all getting quite besides ourselves here.  We are all forgetting Wagner's concept of Total Artwork.  Of course Wagner's libretto are important and to quote ACD, " one misses rather a lot by missing the organic unity of text and music"  It saddens me when people complain about inconsistencies and boring aspects in Wagner's librettos.  Wagner never intended for his opera plots to be micro-analyzed to the smallest detail.  Moreover it is this marriage of text and music and visual spectacle (Wagner gave specific stage instructions and wanted to thrill his audiences visually) that is most important in a Wagnerian opera!   Wagner was after the dramatic effect.  It is here that he was most successful.  If in the opinion of some that comes at the expense of inconsistencies in the plot then so be it! I find Wagner's plots thrilling and mysitical and with the music and visual spectacle I believe that Wagner is unsurpassed in his presentation of a powerfully dramatic work of art.  I wouldn't change one note Wagner wrote nor one phrase in any of his libretti! That my dear friends is evidence of a hardcore wagnerian.

 marvin  

[knight66]

I agree with most of that, but although I am not really for editing the scores, it does not mean I have to respond to them as though they were The Grail rather than evoking The Grail. I am far from alone in regretting stretches of the operas.

But then, I would not be up painting out bits of the Sisteen just because there was too much flesh, or not enough acerage of flesh. It is what the artist created and especially with Wagner, the concept was total. So I will just continue to wriggle in boredom through parts of his works.

Mike

[karlhenning]

I wouldn't change one note Wagner wrote nor one phrase in any of his libretti! That my dear friends is evidence of a hardcore wagnerian.

Not necessarily, Marvin; you could simply have better things to do with your time than mess about with by-now-antique documents 

[marvinbrown]

Not necessarily, Marvin; you could simply have better things to do with your time than mess about with by-now-antique documents 

  ...like enjoying Wagner's music, with all those dragons, Gods, giants, heros, sexy rheinmaidens  , swords and blazing fires  oh my!    With regards to Mike's allegations that there is too much "skin" in Michaelangelo's Sisteen Chapel paintings........I'll have to come back to you on that one Mike  ...

  marvin

[karlhenning]

With regards to Mike's allegations that there is too much "skin" in Michaelangelo's Sisteen Chapel paintings........I'll have to come back to you on that one Mike  ...

Oh, that's history, Marvin;  there were those who wanted Michelangelo to paint garments on all the figures.

[knight66]

  ...like enjoying Wagner's music, with all those dragons, Gods, giants, heros, sexy rheinmaidens  , swords and blazing fires  oh my!    With regards to Mike's allegations that there is too much "skin" in Michaelangelo's Sisteen Chapel paintings........I'll have to come back to you on that one Mike  ...

  marvin

Not my allegation, I also mentioned the possibility of insufficient flesh. But get back to me by all means. As an aside, subsequently, some garments were painted onto the figures. The recent cleaning has removed those the artist had not intended.

Mike

[Sergeant Rock]

...I am not really for editing the scores...

Nor am I despite my Franz Schalk comment (written in jest only). As I said before, and as Jezetha so brilliantly elaborated, I believe Marke's monologue has deep psychological importance and fills out his character; and the music fits his mental state. I would not cut it by one bar. And yet...I wish opera theaters had popcorn and refreshment stands so I could take a ten minute break at that point   Once heard and digested, it's one rare and small bit of Wagner I can do without now. That's just my personal response, not a criticism of Wagner's artistic integrity or merit, Marvin. Despite my criticism (as effective as a pea shooter against an Abrams tank) Wagner still reigns supreme as part of my musical trinity. I have a lot more issues with the actual Trinity: now His/Their creation is really screwed up! ...but that's an argument for the Diner.

Sarge

[Chaszz]

I'm not talkng mainly about inconsistencies and weak spots in the librettos, though they do bother me; but more about the mawkishness and improbability of the overall plots as a whole. Most of them end with a female suicide, whether willed or not willed, and most of them are on the level of thousands of Victorian melodramas which have been deservedly forgotten. Wagner was a man of his time in that respect, and his literary imagaination was IMO on the level of Perils of Pauline and other silent movie melodramas. When I think of a Wagner plot, it does not remind me of a Greek tragedy (at which he was aiming) but of a tear-jerking potboiler. This doesn't mean that he doesn't sometimes achieve marvelous drama in certain scenes. But the overall plot never gives me the feelings of catharsis and deep identification that real tragedies do. There is too much manipulation aimed at bringing about the desired ending suicide, which IMO reflects the author's overriding desire to throw a gigantic temper tantrum aimed at the unfairness of life. 

Just my opinions, so be them. Fire away, boys.

As for ACD, well, one can see that one only has to mention his well-known debating style to cause others to sink to that level.   

[Tsaraslondon]

As I said before, and as Jezetha so brilliantly elaborated, I believe Marke's monologue has deep psychological importance and fills out his character; and the music fits his mental state. I would not cut it by one bar. And yet...I wish opera theaters had popcorn and refreshment stands so I could take a ten minute break at that point   Once heard and digested, it's one rare and small bit of Wagner I can do without now.

Sarge

A wonderful observation. Thank you. In future, I won't feel so guilty about wishing he (Marke) would just get on with it, nor (dare I even admit it here?) skipping his monologue during domestic listening sessions.

[David Zalman]

Apropos this, um, discussion of the importance or non-importance of the text in Wagner's music dramas, in a post on his blog of July 2004, ACD printed an e-mail from a reader that said, in part, "I've always had a problem listening to and understanding Wagner's later operas, though I'm a big fan of Tannhäuser and Lohengrin, and listen to those operas often."  The writer then asked for ACD's guidance in coming to terms with those later operas.  The pertinent part of ACD's response (i.e., pertinent to this discussion) read:

[T]here are certain peculiarities of music-drama (as opposed to conventional opera) of which one needs to be aware. For instance, unlike conventional opera, one must at all times know pretty much verbatim what the characters are actually saying when singing as it's not "songs" they're singing, but dialogue, much like the spoken dialogue of a staged straight drama. The importance of that verbatim knowing becomes immediately clear when one considers that Wagner's music-dramas never traffic in soap-opera melodrama and cookie-cutter plots, and to have only the gist of what the characters are saying when singing as one can do without penalty with conventional opera is a guarantee of becoming hopelessly lost in, or missing completely, the often intricate and subtle narrative twists, and the equally intricate and subtle web of interwoven dramatic and psychological complexities that are fundamental components of all Wagner's mature works.

Further, and perhaps most importantly, and once again unlike conventional opera, without knowing what the characters are actually saying when singing, one will miss totally the dramatic, psychological, and emotional gestalt of the organic union of text and music as that music issues from the orchestra wherein resides the very core of the drama itself. That locus of the dramatic core of the work, and the gestalt of the union of text and music, are the unique and most salient characteristics of music-drama; what separates it from conventional opera, and indeed what constitutes music-drama's very raison d'être. In the music itself is the core of the drama, while the sung text provides the necessary concrete particulars and narrative details which are at once both the drama's armature and context which particulars and details music alone is incapable of conveying.

All of which is to say that while one can in large part engage Wagner's early works in just the same way one engages an opera by, say, Bellini or Donizetti, or even much of Verdi, for the mature works that simply won't do, and attempting that sort of engagement is an ultimately empty exercise; a virtual guarantee of missing most of what Wagner offers.

And with that, I leave you good people to take up residence on ACD's just opened classical music and opera forum where one can say anything one wishes, and say it in any way one chooses.

[Sergeant Rock]

I won't feel so guilty about wishing he (Marke) would just get on with it, nor (dare I even admit it here?) skipping his monologue during domestic listening sessions.

I think many such sins are committed by even hardcore Wagnerites in the deep of night with the curtains drawn  

Sarge