Personality Types

[amw]

Even since I took MBTI tests and got the INTJ results with very narrow margin to INTP, I have felt like "missing" strengths  and weaknesses related to "J" and "P" because I am so close to the middle. Then it occured me, that these axes are probably linked to each other.

I did find an article on this specific "issue" some people have with personality types (not understanding exactly what they are or whatever). As always, caveat that this entire field is pseudoscience. https://practicaltyping.com/2018/10/26/am-i-an-intj-or-an-intp/

[greg]

I did find an article on this specific "issue" some people have with personality types (not understanding exactly what they are or whatever).

That distinguishes those types well.

I'm just not sure rigid models really work perfectly or explain everything for everyone. It's effective for communication that you can tell people "I'm INTP" or "I'm ENFJ" or whatever, but a whole lot of important nuance is lost.

And with the cognitive function stack, I think one can be other orders that isn't accepted by any model, example being something like Ne and Ni right next to each other, instead of having a model that acts like we can't even do both, which is true for no one.

As always, caveat that this entire field is pseudoscience. https://practicaltyping.com/2018/10/26/am-i-an-intj-or-an-intp/

Yeah, pretty much all of psychology could probably be considered pseudoscience probably (maybe apart from anything involving clinical trials or neurology)? Idk exactly where you draw the line. (Or maybe there's some official term used to describe it that I don't know?)

In the end, something like a typology system becomes an effective tool for understanding, then pseudoscience is enough, it's all we have after all- unless we can figure out a way to literally measure emotions/behaviors/motivations/fears into numerical value and turn it into a hard science. 

[71 dB]

I did find an article on this specific "issue" some people have with personality types (not understanding exactly what they are or whatever). As always, caveat that this entire field is pseudoscience. https://practicaltyping.com/2018/10/26/am-i-an-intj-or-an-intp/

I don't think you understood my post, which I confess is rather abstract and mathematically complex.

Perceivers (xxxP) have extroverted perceiving function (S or N) while Judgers (xxxJ) have extroverted judging function (F or T) in the top 2 of their cognitive function stack.

However, NOBODY is 100 % J or 100 % P. Based on the tests I have taken, I am little more J than P. This should affect what kind of extroverted function in the top 2 I have. Instead of just going at Te, I consider my Auxiliary function something like 0.55*Te + 0.45*Ne, but it can be even more complex than that, a weighed sum of the auxiliary functions of ALL personality types where Te and Ne dominate, because I am INTJ/P.

It simplifies things to "shoehorn" everybody into 16 MBTI personality types, but especially for those people have happen to be close to or at a border of 2 types, it can create a lot of confusion as seems to be the case with INTJ and INTP.

Up until recenty (1.5 years ago) I considered personality type tests complete nonsense, but at least for me it has been very helpful to get into these things. For me personality types and cognitive functions are tools to understand what goes on in my head. Even if the type is wrong, I understand much better myself and other people. I have only one mystery: Why have I struggled so much in science/engineering-jobs when I seem to be INTJ/P when those types of jobs are considered suitable for my personality type? Why am I still completely at loss as to what is my "place" in this World? That's why I try to develop deeper understanding of my TRUE personality type beyond the simplifications of MBTI. For example it is possible the current World is not suitable for 0.55*Te + 0.45*Ne types and I am just REALLY unlucky to have born in the wrong century. Maybe I should have born in 2071 in a Mars colony?

[DavidW]

You guys have been at this for 14 years or so.  Have you figured out yet who you are?

[71 dB]

You guys have been at this for 14 years or so.  Have you figured out yet who you are?

Knowing who you are is like knowing the brand and model of your hi-fi amplifier. Knowing your personality type and understanding how your head works is like having the manual to your amplifier and knowing how to use it.

[greg]

You guys have been at this for 14 years or so.  Have you figured out yet who you are?

Better than most people, but learning about the systems is where the addicting part is. It has become an unfortunate habit now to try to guess the type of everyone I see, and every TV/game character, etc. 

Also, didn't even catch how old this thread was... btw, that is typical of an enneagram type 5 thing to do, once a subject has caught my fascination, it's characteristic to dig deeper and deeper and deeper, endlessly, to get every last detail, for years, when all I'm doing is feeding my brain and there's not even much of a productive or practical application. Curiosity is just endless. 

It simplifies things to "shoehorn" everybody into 16 MBTI personality types, but especially for those people have happen to be close to or at a border of 2 types, it can create a lot of confusion as seems to be the case with INTJ and INTP.

Under MBTI, you can only be either Ne/Ti or Ni/Te. Under OPS, they accept "jumpers," for example you can be Ti/Ni or Te/Ne.

You might be Ti/Ni or Ti/Si, that would honestly make the most sense- from reading your posts over the years, I feel like those are the two most likely types for you. (btw Elon Musk is typed as Ti/Si in OPS, for reference)

You could optionally try a cognitive function test, but I wouldn't totally recommend it or take that too seriously, tbh, just reading about the functions and observing your thinking process should help the most.

Why have I struggled so much in science/engineering-jobs when I seem to be INTJ/P when those types of jobs are considered suitable for my personality type?

Didn't you say it was management issues?

Why am I still completely at loss as to what is my "place" in this World?

Interesting question. Do you mean like a "place in society?"

[DavidW]

Knowing who you are is like knowing the brand and model of your hi-fi amplifier. Knowing your personality type and understanding how your head works is like having the manual to your amplifier and knowing how to use it.

That is funny because I have a power amp... it has exactly one button.  No need for a manual.

[greg]

Great find, this one has enneagram pairings- if one is okay with tritype theory (no reason why one shouldn't be, but some people aren't), then you theoretically could look at a group of three pairings.

So for my tritype 548, it is 5+4, 5+8, 4+8. I read through all of the type descriptions and these are indeed the top three most relatable. Really interesting read.


https://www.personalitycafe.com/threads/enneagram-pairings-revised-expanded-edition.1354962/

4+5 The Introspective

Double withdrawn.
Paring that is the most introspective and focused on its inner life.
Enhances the natural wings of FOUR and FIVE.
This is the deep divers of their own personal abyss.
People with this pairing are deep thinkers and feelers.
Often feel like a drop in the ocean, like they could be easily swallowed by the outside world.
Feel tired very quickly when interacting with people, especially in new environment.
Genuinely feel different and separate from the crowd.
Generally, prefer written communication over spoken one.
Seek depth in everything and often cannot tolerate daily conversations because of this.
Often engrossed in interests far more than other pairings.
They have a hard time communicating their feelings if they are caught up in them.
Often have a capacity for forming mental maps in which they can intuitively navigate.
Seek beauty and authenticity in the pursuit of knowledge.
Often have odd or unusual interests.
Can be shut ins and live in their own fantasy realm.
Can be emotionally moved and not overtly showing it at all.
Often have a hidden self that very few people are aware of.
Want to be known for their artistic complexity and ingenuity.
It can take them enormous amount of time to produce something because they always prioritize quality over quantity.
Feelings can be a source of anxiety, but they still want to experience them.
Often amass vast amount of knowledge and are often wise beyond their years.
The 5 fix helps the core 4 seek out logical causes to their feelings of inferiority and pursue intellectual hobbies.
The 4 fix helps the core 5 break out of the cerebral mindset and allow intuitive and emotional depth to seep into the self.

4+8 The Maskless

Double reactive.
Pairing that has the most difficulty with superficiality and lying in general.
Most intuitive pairing; see possibilities long before most people.
Intense reactivity to perceived dishonesty, falsehood and conventional thinking.
Most creative and unconventional pairing.
Out-of-the-box thinking and problem-solving.
Like to dig deep into emotional traumas, not afraid of defying taboos.
Protect the vulnerable, the rejected, the abandoned, the different.
Wants to live life according to their own musing, rejecting external expectations.
Are their own authority and can easily delve into insubordination.
Don't have any problem going against the grain and be oppositional.
If it doesn't ring true to them, it's no gonna be validated.
They don't sugarcoat anything, and they mean every word of it.
They trust their gut and their heart, so they are very instinctive in everything they do.
Often see right through others and intuitively know what makes people tick and how they manage everyday problems.
They often have piercing, intense look in their face.
This EIGHT is more conscious of its emotional needs and less fearful of its vulnerable side.
This pairing brings out intensity and emotional truthfulness.
People with this combination are extremely sensitive to insincerity and deceit.
Feel things strongly and express them in a powerful and/or eccentric way.
Can say deep or unconventional truths that few people might have reflected on before.
The 8 fix helps the core 4 assert their creative side and make something out of it.
The 4 fix helps the core 8 get in touch with their emotions and vulnerable side as well as their intuition.

5+8 The Independent

Double rejection.
Pairing that is the most strategic in their thinking.
Enhances the natural line of connection to FIVE and EIGHT.
This is the chess master or the mastermind.
Very strong opinions about topic they like or study.
Knowledge is power to them.
Never attack upfront first but can be sneaky and never let its sight away from their opponent.
Often doesn't rely on one course of action and can change on a whim according to the situation.
May be underestimated by their peers because of the FIVE's low energy giving the EIGHT are more subdued presence.
This FIVE is less intellectual in the sense of bookworm and more streetwise as this pairing learns best by experience.
They oscillate between action and observation very quickly as to never be truly in the moment nor completely still.
They often look calm and fixated on something, as they are waiting to strike on their prey at the right time.
Menacing or unfriendly presence even if unintentional.
Mix of hot and cold energy; may be hard to follow and hard to know deeply.
Their heart is very well protected and can be hard to access even to them.
Often have a razor-sharp mind and are very good at problem-solving.
Have a difficult time connecting with others in a casual, superficial way.
Can alternate between periods of action and reflection.
The 8 fix helps the core 5 putting their ideas out there and assert themselves.
The 5 fix helps the core 8 understand the need to contemplate in order to better grasp the situation.

That is funny because I have a power amp... it has exactly one button.  No need for a manual.

[Spotted Horses]

That is funny because I have a power amp... it has exactly one button.  No need for a manual.

That makes you type A or type A/B.

[71 dB]

Under MBTI, you can only be either Ne/Ti or Ni/Te. Under OPS, they accept "jumpers," for example you can be Ti/Ni or Te/Ne.

Yes, but I am thinking "outside" MBTI here.  What is OPS? Omaha Public Schools? I haven't followed this thread much until recently in order to take my mind off the horrible war. 

You might be Ti/Ni or Ti/Si, that would honestly make the most sense- from reading your posts over the years, I feel like those are the two most likely types for you. (btw Elon Musk is typed as Ti/Si in OPS, for reference) Do you mean that dominant and secondary cognitive functions would be Ti and Ni in my case?

Elon Musk's personality type is obviously "smart weirdo" 

The most difficult thing in identifying personality type is knowing which side of the "fence" am I? It is really difficult except for the Introvert/Extrovert axes. Otherwise it is up to the situation how my brain works or it is a mixture of the option because the options are not "opposite". Since Te and Ti for example are different kind of Thinking (Te ≠ -Ti), it is logically possible to use both, but if your "judgements" are based on logic, they can't be based on feelings unless feelings and logic take you to the same place.

The link given by amw says that ISTPs and ISTJs are often missidentified as INTPs and INTJs. Those types are not very far from me, in fact they are somewhat close, but they don't seem as correct as INTP and INTJ. None of the 16 types feels 100 % match, but the "average" of INTP and INTJ seems a good match. Attached is were I believe I am in the J-P/N-S plane.

You could optionally try a cognitive function test, but I wouldn't totally recommend it or take that too seriously, tbh, just reading about the functions and observing your thinking process should help the most.

Yeah, but this personality typing has already helped. I have always wondered why most people are so weird and why some things are so easy or difficult for me compared to other people. All this personality type thing explains so much of it. In fact this began around 2010 when my sister told me I could have Asperger's. At the time I hadn't even heard about it. I don't have a diagnose, but I seem to have mild Asperger's so that about half of the symptoms fit very when to me. MBTI stuff stuff has further deepened my understanding and I believe my mild Asperger's is actually a side effect of being at the end of the Introvert axes. It is a part of being INTJ/INTP. At the opposite end, if you are extremely extroverted you are likely to have tendencies to manipulate other people, because you are so good at social interaction ("anti-Asperger's")

Didn't you say it was management issues?

That too. I mean the type or work I have done in life hasn't felt as correct for me as it theoretically should feel while the type of work that would be suitable for me doesn't seem to exist. The main problem is I don't like doing stuff that OTHER people value. I only enjoy doing stuff I value myself, but nobody is going to pay me to do stuff only I value. Because of my personality type what I value is often very different from with most people value, this is a massive problem. In my experience ESxx type of people succeed in the worklife much better/easier than INxx type of people. Introverts are easily ignored because they are "silent" and the fast surface level learning of Sensors looks more efficient than the slower but deeper leaning of Intuitives.   [/QUOTE]

[greg]

Yes, but I am thinking "outside" MBTI here.  What is OPS? Omaha Public Schools? I haven't followed this thread much until recently in order to take my mind off the horrible war. 

Ah my bad, I was gambling on the chance you would have remember the acronym, it's Objective Personality System. 

The most difficult thing in identifying personality type is knowing which side of the "fence" am I? It is really difficult except for the Introvert/Extrovert axes. Otherwise it is up to the situation how my brain works or it is a mixture of the option because the options are not "opposite". Since Te and Ti for example are different kind of Thinking (Te ≠ -Ti), it is logically possible to use both, but if your "judgements" are based on logic, they can't be based on feelings unless feelings and logic take you to the same place.

This is exactly my problem with MBTI, you aren't just "on one side of the fence," though your given type might label you such. We all use all 8 functions and shift as needed.

However, we have a preference and comfort zone. It would be better tracked if you could make a heat map, the most red areas being the comfort zones. This is what type should indicate.

Yeah, but this personality typing has already helped. I have always wondered why most people are so weird and why some things are so easy or difficult for me compared to other people. All this personality type thing explains so much of it. In fact this began around 2010 when my sister told me I could have Asperger's. At the time I hadn't even heard about it. I don't have a diagnose, but I seem to have mild Asperger's so that about half of the symptoms fit very when to me. MBTI stuff stuff has further deepened my understanding and I believe my mild Asperger's is actually a side effect of being at the end of the Introvert axes. It is a part of being INTJ/INTP. At the opposite end, if you are extremely extroverted you are likely to have tendencies to manipulate other people, because you are so good at social interaction ("anti-Asperger's")

Have you still not read about enneagram type 5?
So I found a chart of correlations on types (sample size 189k):


You can see that type 5 is exactly highly INTP/INTJ.


I would be willing to bet a lot of money that you are a type 5. Type 5 is also extremely associated with Asperger's, and also introversion and interest in hard sciences (but in general, typically interest in niche fields that may be unpopular). It is also the most disproportionately male and the rarest (out of all 9 types).

You should take time and research this type, it is very illuminating/revealing, well worth some reading if you are into self-discovery.

That too. I mean the type or work I have done in life hasn't felt as correct for me as it theoretically should feel while the type of work that would be suitable for me doesn't seem to exist. The main problem is I don't like doing stuff that OTHER people value. I only enjoy doing stuff I value myself, but nobody is going to pay me to do stuff only I value. Because of my personality type what I value is often very different from with most people value, this is a massive problem. In my experience ESxx type of people succeed in the worklife much better/easier than INxx type of people. Introverts are easily ignored because they are "silent" and the fast surface level learning of Sensors looks more efficient than the slower but deeper leaning of Intuitives.   

[/quote]
Yeah, man... totally get it. A common problem with introversion in general, I think. It's great for niche markets
Kinda why you need markets to be somewhat free (within reason), so as many people actually do have a chance to try to make a career doing something they love. Though there will still be plenty of people like us who still won't be able to find anything we love to make a career from.
Music, for example, isn't profitable most of the time, so it's kind of the wrong interest to have if expecting financial gain.

And in general, I'm just not a team player. I used to consider working in the gaming industry, but besides the overtime expectations, I realized that I wouldn't be happy working on someone else's project. Like, if I had to give one label to myself, just one word, it would be "creative." Someone like that is not naturally someone who should be compromising in teams, they just weren't built to be followers. But unless you come from money, you won't be able to make a career doing creative stuff (especially music) most of the time. ROI is the reality.

[71 dB]

Ah my bad, I was gambling on the chance you would have remember the acronym, it's Objective Personality System. 

My memory is what it is. Even when something has been mentioned several times, it may be a "new" thing for me. I have hard time memorising what other people say and it makes me feel a bad person (someone not respecting other to even remember what they said). Sorry, if you have mentioned OPS many times...

This is exactly my problem with MBTI, you aren't just "on one side of the fence," though your given type might label you such. We all use all 8 functions and shift as needed. However, we have a preference and comfort zone. It would be better tracked if you could make a heat map, the most red areas being the comfort zones. This is what type should indicate.

I am not even sure about the 8 functions.  What if there are 12 or 14?

Have you still not read about enneagram type 5?

Not really. Someday maybe. The INTP-side of me takes care I don't do things too fast. 

So I found a chart of correlations on types (sample size 189k):


You can see that type 5 is exactly highly INTP/INTJ.

I would be willing to bet a lot of money that you are a type 5. Type 5 is also extremely associated with Asperger's, and also introversion and interest in hard sciences (but in general, typically interest in niche fields that may be unpopular). It is also the most disproportionately male and the rarest (out of all 9 types).

You should take time and research this type, it is very illuminating/revealing, well worth some reading if you are into self-discovery.

Of course I am type 5. I get into it when I feel like doing it.

[Rosalba]

I'm a mixture of The Duty-Fulfiller and The Artist. I'm not original or lawless enough to be an Artist precisely, and I am too sociable and voluble to be a Duty-Fulfiller, incontrovertibly.
Could sixteen types even exactly classify a human nose, let alone a human personality?

[71 dB]

Could sixteen types even exactly classify a human nose, let alone a human personality?

It is about how accurately you want to be classified. At the simplest level people can be classified as extroverts and introverts (2 types). At the other end there are 8 billion personality types and my type is "me"  Sixteen types is a compromise between "not enough accuracy" and "too many types".

One way to think about this is that maybe each personality type should be equally crowded? One could craft for example 100 different personality types so that each type contains 1 % of all people. Instead of having some personality types be more common than others, there would be clusters of "similar" personality types of different sizes.

[greg]

My memory is what it is. Even when something has been mentioned several times, it may be a "new" thing for me. I have hard time memorising what other people say and it makes me feel a bad person (someone not respecting other to even remember what they said). Sorry, if you have mentioned OPS many times...

No worries. 
In fact...

Of course I am type 5. I get into it when I feel like doing it.

I totally don't remember if you confirmed this already, I believe I mentioned to you before but don't remember if you said anything.
So yeah, same here lol.

I am not even sure about the 8 functions.  What if there are 12 or 14?

Right...
the difficult thing about functions is that the origination is from Carl Jung, and his descriptions are long-winded and abstract to say the least.
There could be more but haven't heard anyone propose more functions.

I'm a mixture of The Duty-Fulfiller and The Artist. I'm not original or lawless enough to be an Artist precisely, and I am too sociable and voluble to be a Duty-Fulfiller, incontrovertibly.
Could sixteen types even exactly classify a human nose, let alone a human personality?

Cool, so the commonality is that you are ISXX.
That's something, at least- there are some people who don't identify strongly with any of the four letters.
I'm kinda similar- although my test results are usually INTP, in reality it's more like INXX because I'm more balanced on the last two letters.

It is about how accurately you want to be classified. At the simplest level people can be classified as extroverts and introverts (2 types). At the other end there are 8 billion personality types and my type is "me"  Sixteen types is a compromise between "not enough accuracy" and "too many types".

One way to think about this is that maybe each personality type should be equally crowded? One could craft for example 100 different personality types so that each type contains 1 % of all people. Instead of having some personality types be more common than others, there would be clusters of "similar" personality types of different sizes.

Exactly.

[71 dB]

No worries. 
In fact...

I totally don't remember if you confirmed this already, I believe I mentioned to you before but don't remember if you said anything.
So yeah, same here lol.

I don't remember (  ) how it went, but I had no reason to dispute your claim. Your picture of the correlation between MBTI and Enneagram only strengthens your claim while I have nothing against it. Anyway, I have been living in the beliefs that my Enneagram type is 5, even if I didn't make a big number about it here.

Right...
the difficult thing about functions is that the origination is from Carl Jung, and his descriptions are long-winded and abstract to say the least.
There could be more but haven't heard anyone propose more functions.

I think "more" as in dividing the (some or all) existing ones into variations, say have two kinds of "extroverted feeling" (Fe1, Fe2) for example.

[greg]

I think "more" as in dividing the (some or all) existing ones into variations, say have two kinds of "extroverted feeling" (Fe1, Fe2) for example.

I would love it if someone made a system that did this.
In the concept of "feelings" in MBTI, you have so many things packed into one- feelings, moods, priorities, values, morals, aesthetic tastes, etc.
And likewise, Fe may be about social vibes, group morals, societal standards, popular tastes, customs, etc. So many things.

Which is great. But that's really zoomed out, sometimes it's nice to zoom in and then zoom out a little. 

[greg]

From Trifix Booklet by David Gray

My trifix (photo attached).


If anyone is curious about this, I can send you one for your trifix, if you can figure it out.
Or I can offer an educated guess for some people, just based on reading posts (ultimately, you being the judge, of course).

(Another one about the 548 I've seen recently on another site is relating it to the myth of Xingtian, a Chinese deity who never stops fighting, even when decapitated. I'm still not sure I quite understand that one.)

What resonates the most is the stuff written in-between the arrows of the 4-8 in this image.
"Amplified annhilation"
"Truth in chaos"
"Bullshit detector"
"Radical Individualist"
"Riding nightmares"

[Florestan]

I can offer an educated guess for some people, just based on reading posts (ultimately, you being the judge, of course).

Okay, Greg, hit me. It should be fun. 

[greg]

Okay, Greg, hit me. It should be fun. 

Crap, you are one of the people who aren't so obvious. 

Ok, I have two guesses (out of 24 types).

379 is my first guess. 279 is my second guess.

Do these feel accurate for you or no?