Yea, I'm bored.
Anyone?...the drunkest, opium addicted, boy loving, cousin marrying, tax cheating, non-recycling,...whatever...
The worst!
Glazunov's apparently drunken appearance on the rostrum to conduct the premiere of Rachmaninov's First Symphony comes to mind. Rachmaninov evidently had to rush out of the auditorium placing his hands over his ears. The work was never performed until long after Rachmaninov's death and the composer was unable to compose until psychiatric intervention helped him to recover his muse.
Quote from: snyprrr on May 16, 2009, 03:37:16 PM
Yea, I'm bored.
Anyone?...the drunkest, opium addicted, boy loving, cousin marrying, tax cheating, non-recycling,...whatever...
The worst!
What is wrong with marrying your cousin ???
Boulez only changes his underwear once a week.
Quote from: The Six on May 16, 2009, 11:15:05 PM
Boulez only changes his underwear once a week.
What is wrong with that? ;D
Quote from: vandermolen on May 16, 2009, 11:28:25 PM
What is wrong with that? ;D
It's very dirty laundry, that's all.
ok, maybe I should have asked, "Which Russian composer was NOT a drunk?"...
...and the reason I didn't ask, "Which composer's mother wore army boots?" is because I get the feeling there is one.
C'mon, it's Saturday night!!!
We know about Mussorgsky...Sibelius...what about the addicts (Berlioz?...Merikanto?...no more???)? Americans in Paris???
What is it about artists like Vivier and Pasolini that gets them murdered by male prostitutes? Kinkiest composers?...Szymanowski?
(So...technically if you like Rachmaninov's best work you have Glazunov to thank? Interesting!...poor Rachy...)Yes, more stories like that.
Maybe I've seen too much TMZ?..."and I'm a lawya'"...arrrgh >:(
Maybe a better question would be, "Which composer was also a lawyer?" but I think we all know the answer to that.
I fear where this thread might be by mid week. Get the clampdown ready, boys...
btw- leave poor Boulez alone...he's got enough obvious problems! $:)
Quote from: snyprrr on May 17, 2009, 12:40:10 AM
Kinkiest composers?...Szymanowski?
Grainger... Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Grainger#Personality) seems to have a somewhat censored mention of it.
But wasn't he from England?
Quote from: snyprrr on May 17, 2009, 02:13:30 AM
But wasn't he from England?
He only worked there for a time - he was a man of the colonies (US, Australia), which could explain the perversion 0:) If only he became famous like Ravel, then people would know him for his music rather than his bedroom habits (Ravel was apparently into handcuffs and the like).
Saint-Saëns and Britten both liked adolescent boys.
Quote from: Lethe on May 17, 2009, 01:44:20 AM
Grainger... Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Grainger#Personality) seems to have a somewhat censored mention of it.
He also had a very odd and close
relationship with his mother...too close, some speculate.
Sarge
Wow Grainger was a real character - never realised! Frantisek Kotzwara extraordinary too...
Why was Szymanowsky so kinky? And what's the story with Merikanto?
Szymanowski was a pederast, and even wrote a thinly-disguised novel about his adventures with boys, including the 15-year-old Boris Kochno.
Quote from: snyprrr on May 17, 2009, 12:40:10 AM
ok, maybe I should have asked, "Which Russian composer was NOT a drunk?"...
Actually, the only Russian composer I can think of who was a serious alcoholic (to the point where it affected his work and life) was Musorgsky.
All the others, as far as I know, liked to imbibe now and then. But that's not the same thing.
Is clean laundry still laundry, or just cloths?
Does any of this matter at all ??? ???
I for one am not really interested in Szymanowski's personal life. I know that I like the music and I suppose that external influences that pertain to the music are relevant and, therefore, of interest but....the rest?
No, I can't say that I approve of or condone Britten's apparent 'interest' in young boys but it is certainly not enough to repel me from his music any more, I have to say, that Wagner's anti-semiticism repels me from the operas. I would not much like to have spent any time in Wagner's company but that goes for a lot of other composers too....Pfitzner, Reger, Orff come to mind instantly but there are plenty of others. Beethoven was pretty foul-tempered at times if I recall?
Creative artists often tend to live somewhat 'unconventional' lives(whatever that means). I used to think that Vaughan Williams was a perfect example of upper middle-class English respectability but that image too has now been blown out of the water by recent revelations about his relationship with the woman who was, eventually, to become his second wife. Delius and Bax had 'torrid' private lives. Tchaikovsky...we think that we know about now. And on and on and on.......
Yes...if a composer drank too much and this affected his creative muse or indeed curtailed that muse, that is indeed tragic. Amongst British composers...Moeran, Sir Malcolm Arnold, Humphrey Searle, Kenneth Leighton, apparently Richard Arnell(although he lived to 92!),
Malcolm Williamson the Australian. All that is sad and deeply unfortunate. The drunk Glazunov and Rachmaninov's glorious Symphony No.1-tragic.
But...the rest?
Sorry guys, I am not trying to spoil anyone's fun (honestly!) but the day that I start thinking about what Szymanowski or Britten may or may not have been doing to or with little boys whilst listening to their music will be a sad day indeed.
No one has mentioned Henry Cowell, who spent fours year in San Quentin on a morals charge. He was eventually pardoned, but since the young men involved were underage, I can't but think that today he'd be required to register as a sex offender.
Oh, and BTW, Stravinsky married his first cousin. It was the thing to do for a while.
They say Mozart was buttocks-obsessed and probably a coprophiliac.
I will spend one week or more (maybe one month?) listening only to composers mentioned on this thread. I will be missing Haydn, Dvorak, Carter, etc. for sure, but I am sure it will be quite an exciting musical ride.
Quote from: The Unrepentant Pelleastrian on May 17, 2009, 04:25:42 PM
They say Mozart was buttocks-obsessed
Mozart had good taste in more ways than one.
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 17, 2009, 04:10:46 PM
Does any of this matter at all ??? ???
I have to say, that Wagner's anti-semiticism repels me from the operas.
You ask an unusual question, and then offer an unusual remark. Szymanowski and Britten and Saint-Saens were all allegedly (or more than allegedly) pedophiles - that is, criminals in today's world. And quite rightly so. How is that somehow easier to take than Wagner's anti-Semitism in terms of accepting a composer's music? Such a distinction makes no sense, and strikes me as a bit disingenuous. Anti-Semitism is worse than pedophilia. Really? Personally, I find both pedophiles and anti-Semites unsavory and make it a point to avoid anyone who falls into either category - or would, if people who fell into either category advertised their predilections.
Yet I listen to the music of Szymanowski, in particular, and Britten and Saint-Saens to a lesser degree. I also listen to Wagner and other composers who held unpleasant views, as well as artists who did and probably due. I don't really care about artists' private lives, I care about their art.
Quote from: The Unrepentant Pelleastrian on May 17, 2009, 04:25:42 PMThey say Mozart was...probably a coprophiliac.
Who is 'they'?
I had to look that up. ;D
Todd,
Quote from: Todd on May 17, 2009, 04:43:45 PMWho is 'they'?
From a cursory reading of biographies that topic comes up frequently.
Quote from: Todd on May 17, 2009, 04:43:45 PM
You ask an unusual question, and then offer an unusual remark. Szymanowski and Britten and Saint-Saens were all allegedly (or more than allegedly) pedophiles - that is, criminals in today's world. And quite rightly so. How is that somehow easier to take than Wagner's anti-Semitism in terms of accepting a composer's music? Such a distinction makes no sense, and strikes me as a bit disingenuous. Anti-Semitism is worse than pedophilia. Really? Personally, I find both pedophiles and anti-Semites unsavory and make it a point to avoid anyone who falls into either category - or would, if people who fell into either category advertised their predilections.
Yet I listen to the music of Szymanowski, in particular, and Britten and Saint-Saens to a lesser degree. I also listen to Wagner and other composers who held unpleasant views, as well as artists who did and probably due. I don't really care about artists' private lives, I care about their art.
Who is 'they'?
I am glad that we are, at least, in agreement on the central point :) I don't really care about artists' private lives either. I, too, care about their art.
If my post read as though I was equating Wagner's opinions and views with the accusations levelled against other composers then that was a fault caused by an incapacity to express myself properly. I would not wish to make any such comparison...one way or the other.
The point that I was, inadequately, attempting to make was that there is often some aspect of a composer's life, personality, creed, predelictions to which, for whatever reason, we might wish to take exception. These will differ from person to person and in degree. If, however, our disapproval, disdain, disgust, or whatever interposes between the music and our appreciation or enjoyment of that music then that is unfortunate. For some it becomes an insurmountable barrier. There are clearly those who simply cannot listen to Wagner's music for reasons which are entirely extra-musical. I cannot agree with such an attitude but I totally respect the position.
Quote from: Mn Dave on May 17, 2009, 04:52:11 PM
I had to look that up. ;D
Yes, first look up, then look down.
Finally, turn your head and cough...
I thought Mozart just liked fart jokes. ???
Dave,
Quote from: Mn Dave on May 17, 2009, 05:02:35 PM
I thought Mozart just liked fart jokes. ???
Apparently it went further than that...
http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=17722
There's a lot of "I don't care about the private lives, it's the art" in this thread.
This is kind of the crux of my temptation here. Yes, what IS that "line in the sand?"
Take Szymanowski. For the sake of arguement, let's just say he's like the "worst person ever." Now, musically, I have to admit that his music is the most hallucinatory, swooning, ecstatic, sensuous, etc., I've ever heard. I just cannot deny that he does stuff that's just, well, if you like it, then you know. Swooning Orphic ecstasy.
Now, let's say you grew up with this music, he's your favorite composer, and then, all of a sudden, you find out he...let's say...either pulled a Fritzl...or was found to have raped every boy in his county (and let's just say he was so famous (or whatever) that he "get's away with it.")
On the one hand, his music is "magical". On the other hand, he's a "monster."
Would you have invited him into your home, let him "Teorema" you? (watch the Pasolini film...another guy murdered by a male whore)
I mean, could someone as staid as...Bruckner?...written music of such hallucinatory power? What creative door is opened by certain types of behaviour? Hey, I mean, if Szymanowski is my fav composer, and I want to write music like him...weeeellllllll... shouldn't I, or, wouldn't I wonder if there was a connection, and if I did the same things, could I write music like that? See where I'm going?
Hey, at least I didn't ask about jazz players!!! I'm watching the PBS jazz thing, and oh my, these guys are pond scum. Have any of our GMG's member's children (or themselves) become junkies because they thought, "It's good enough for Charlie Parker?"
Only each individual can answer for themselves where that line in the sand is.
I had my run in with this topic with the artist Sting. At some point I remember thinking, "He writes these beautiful songs, but he's such an asshole." As someone who also seeks to share with the world their talents, I have seriously questioned this artist/moral responsibility issue. I think I personally need a better answer than just, "I'm not interested in composer's private lives," for one reason, apparently they're NOT private. Also, with the composers, perhaps the balm of time smooths over what, at the time, might have been more serious.
I'm not the kind of guy who says to my "idol", "I love you, please sleep with my wife!" Haha.
Keep in mind, in the rock/pop world, the scummier you are, the more people sometimes seem to like you (and, yes, I know some people like rebels for rebellion's sake).
So...were boys raped so that we could enjoy our favorite music? And that's ok with most of us here? Collateral damage? What price talent?
I fear this whole topic runs deeper into our core being than we might all like to admit.
Charles Manson wrote this song "What's You're Game Girl," a really lovely piece of 60s pop.
I like to pretend that Satan himself wrote "You Light Up My Life" and was able to dupe sooo many people into thinking the song was about God. Laughing all the way to the bank.
After really getting into the blues, and really listening to the lyrics, after a while (years) my conscience pricked me, and I sold my whole collection.
I'll admit that half the reason I started this thread was just for the pure salacious gossip (yea, I've got issues too). But, there is an obvious flip side to that coin. Still, I want to know who's the first composer coke or herion junkie! Who's the first composer crackhead? btw- Merikanto...opium?
Don't you find discontinuity when you can praise the man's art, but cannot praise the man from who that art flowed?
So...where does their art "come from"? Who's in charge of dispensing talent? Where is this wellspring?
So, while we're at it, what is Bach's big "sin"? Or does he morally seem to be the appropriate conduit for such celestial God music?
btw- am I off topic yet? ;D
This is wild stuff!!! Keep it coming.
The reason that it matters is that art, somehow, connects us with the artist. Certain composers wear their heart on their sleeve more than others, but in most cases, when the music expresses pain, it is not the abstract idea of pain that is captured, but the composer's pain. We are brought into their emotional world, made tangible by the expressive qualities of music. And somehow this emotional mind meld rubs off on us. As we travel the journey of a Mahler symphony, we don't come out at the other end the same, but changed in some small way. To think that their emotional material transfered is somehow tainted by pedophilia or antisemitism or worse is frightening. No one wants to be secretely corrupted, and I would say an aversion to a particular composer because they are both emotionally expressive and morally repulsive is justified.
Quote from: snyprrr on May 17, 2009, 12:40:10 AM
ok, maybe I should have asked, "Which Russian composer was NOT a drunk?"...
[...]
We know about Mussorgsky...Sibelius...
Well,
Sibelius was a Finn (or, a Swedish-descended resident of Finland).
Quote from: Spitvalve on May 17, 2009, 08:26:01 AM
Actually, the only Russian composer I can think of who was a serious alcoholic (to the point where it affected his work and life) was Musorgsky.
The question was a slur, of course 0:)
Quote from: springrite on May 17, 2009, 08:28:15 AM
Is clean laundry still laundry, or just cloths?
That's an easy question,
Paul! If it's still in the basket, it's
clean laundry. If it's in the closet or wardrobe, it's
clothes 8)
Quote from: The Unrepentant Pelleastrian on May 17, 2009, 04:25:42 PM
They say Mozart was buttocks-obsessed and probably a coprophiliac.
Who are
they?
Quote from: The Unrepentant Pelleastrian on May 17, 2009, 04:59:06 PM
From a cursory reading of biographies that topic comes up frequently.
From a close reading of three biographies, neither topic came up at all.
Second time of asking (third, counting Todd's query): Who are
they?Perhaps you should read less scurrilous biography, Eric.
Quote from: The Unrepentant Pelleastrian on May 17, 2009, 05:05:40 PM
Apparently it went further than that...
Have you read the letters, Eric?
Have you considered that perhaps
you want to believe that
Mozart was coprophiliac and "buttocks-obsessed"?
Quote
http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=17722
BTW:
QuoteAaron Retica writes about classical, jazz, and klezmer music from time to time.
Quote from: Mn Dave on May 17, 2009, 04:52:11 PM
I had to look that up. ;D
Me too, and I wish I hadn't. :-X
Quote from: Keemun on May 18, 2009, 05:37:58 AM
Me too, and I wish I hadn't. :-X
Ah, I see you've met Eric!
Apparently so....
Quote
If it's in the closet or wardrobe, it's clothes 8)
Or, if you're
wearing them, natch.
I think it's wrong to be hostile to Wagner's operas merely because he happened to be anti-semitic, and it's often not realized that his anti-semitism was not even all that extreme. This is not to defend his deplorable attitudes, but you should be aware that he never advocated genocide against them,or any other group, and would no doubthave been sickened to see all the atrocities committed under Naziism if he could have seen them.
Wagner's main beef with Jews was his ridiculously irrational belief that they were intrinsically incapable of creating great art, particularly music, and he sneered at Meyerbeer and Mendelssohn, even though he actually admired some of the latter's music.
But the old cliche goes, some of his best friends were Jews.
I you go through the librettos of all his operas, you will not find a single anti-semitic statement made by any of his characters. There are no Jewish characters, no discussions of Jews or Judaism other than a reference to David and Goliath in the Bible in Die Meistersinger which is entirely without malice, and an indirect reference to the crucifixion in Parsifal.
To interpret the Ring as a paean to Naziism is to completely misunderstand it. On the contrary,it shows the terrible destructive power of lust for power,and how Wotan and the gods are destroyed by it.
Quote from: Superhorn on May 18, 2009, 07:27:39 AM
I think it's wrong to be hostile to Wagner's operas merely because he happened to be anti-semitic [...]
Agreed.
Quote from: SuperhornTo interpret the Ring as a paean to Naziism is to completely misunderstand it.
Agreed, again.
Quote from: snyprrr on May 16, 2009, 03:37:16 PM
Yea, I'm bored.
Anyone?...the drunkest, opium addicted, boy loving, cousin marrying, tax cheating, non-recycling,...whatever...
The worst!
Do we know of any non-recycling composers?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 18, 2009, 07:37:43 AM
Do we know of any non-recycling composers?
A completely original composer? Nah.
Them composer is crazy... ;D
Quote from: Mn Dave on May 18, 2009, 07:41:56 AM
Them composer is crazy... ;D
But their linens is clean!
I find this whole thread to be vulgar and an attack on my delicate sensibilities.
I respect that.
You coprophiliac, buttock-obsessor, you.
Quote from: opus67 on May 18, 2009, 07:41:32 AM
A completely original composer? Nah.
No, but like, serialists must keep all their plastic separated by recycling grade, right?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 18, 2009, 07:49:48 AM
No, but like, serialists must keep all their plastic separated by recycling grade, right?
Yes. 12 different recycling grades, and they must parcel out one box of each grade at any one time in the correct order.
Now I'm off to plan the recycling with a Babbitt square.
Oh, dear. Such an inviting topic to come across at this time in my life!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 18, 2009, 07:49:48 AM
No, but like, serialists must keep all their plastic separated by recycling grade, right?
I won't bother trying to understand what obviously appears to be some kind of in-joke. :-\
Quote from: opus67 on May 18, 2009, 08:18:03 AM
I won't bother trying to understand what obviously appears to be some kind of in-joke. :-\
I cannot answer a question if it is not phrased 0:)
I was surprised to read that Carl Nielsen fathered several children out of wedlock while married to Anne. Not a high rating on the antisemitism-pedophile scale, but a juicy bit of gossip.
I must disagree though about antisemitism and the relation to Wagner's art. I don't think Wagner "happened" to be antisemitic, as he "happened" to be short or blond. It was central to his conception of himself. There's nothing "mere" about it. And I don't think his beef was "just" he thought Jewish people are incapable of creating geat art. Such rationalizations are usually covers for a deeper antipathy, a kind of intellectual superstructure, if you will. His problem was personal and visceral. The rest he just made up. And as for the defense that he did not call for the annihlation of the Jews, well, la-dee-freakin'-da. There are plenty of stages of despicability that stop short of annihliaton. (See Jakob Katz, Richard Wagner's Antisemitism, for an insightful discussion of Wagner's ambivalance toward violence and how it makes him more culpable as an antisemite.)
Antisemitism is no more irrelevant to Wagner's art than Margaret Mitchell's ugly racial poltics are irrelevant to Gone with the Wind. If it's there, it's there, and it can invalidate the entire enterprise.
I made my peace with Wagner the antisemite, however, because I found the argument that his operas are antisemtic tracts ultimately unconvincing. It relies on an underlying contradiction. Marc Weiner, in "Richard Wagner and the Antisemtic Imagination" argues that Wagner did not explicitly make Beckmesser a Jew, for example, because he was afraid of backlash from his Jewish patrons and the great Jewish musicians he relied on for performances. On the other hand, Weiner also argues that audiences picked up on the antisemitic signals anyway, which were obvious to anyone who knew the code. But if the message was obvious, and intended to be obvious, why bother to paper it over with a few cosmetic disguises? It doesn't make sense. Jewish patrons and musicians would have been as sentitive to the message as anyone else, perhaps more so. If Wagner thought he could fool them by making Beckmesser a gentile, then he was really fooling himself.
Quote from: Joe Barron on May 18, 2009, 08:43:47 AM
I made my peace with Wagner the antisemite, however, because I found the argument that his operas are antisemtic tracts ultimately unconvincing.
Quoted for truth.
Quote from: Joe Barron on May 18, 2009, 08:43:47 AM
I was surprised to read that Carl Nielsen fathered several children out of wedlock while married to Anne. Not a high rating on the antisemitism-pedophile scale, but a juicy bit of gossip.
I must disagree though about antisemitism and the relation to Wagner's art. I don't think Wagner "happened" to be antisemitic, as he "happened" to be short or blond. It was central to his conception of himself. There's nothing "mere" about it. And I don't think his beef was "just" he thought Jewish people are incapable of creating geat art. Such rationalizations are usually covers for a deeper antipathy, a kind of intellectual superstructure, if you will. His problem was personal and visceral. The rest he just made up. And as for the defense that he did not call for the annihlation of the Jews, well, la-dee-freakin'-da. There are plenty of stages of despicability that stop short of annihliaton. (See Jakob Katz, Richard Wagner's Antisemitism, for an insightful discussion of Wagner's ambivalance toward violence and how it makes him more culpable as an antisemite.)
Antisemitism is no more irrelevant to Wagner's art than Margaret Mitchell's ugly racial poltics are irrelevant to Gone with the Wind. If it's there, it's there, and it can invalidate the entire enterprise.
I made my peace with Wagner the antisemite, however, because I found the argument that his operas are antisemtic tracts ultimately unconvincing. It relies on an underlying contradiction. Marc Weiner, in "Richard Wagner and the Antisemtic Imagination" argues that Wagner did not explicitly make Beckmesser a Jew, for example, because he was afraid of backlash from his Jewish patrons and the great Jewish musicians he relied on for performances. On the other hand, Weiner also argues that audiences picked up on the antisemitic signals anyway, which were obvious to anyone who knew the code. But if the message was obvious, and intended to be obvious, why bother to paper it over with a few cosmetic disguises? It doesn't make sense. Jewish patrons and musicians would have been as sentitive to the message as anyone else, perhaps more so. If Wagner thought he could fool them by making Beckmesser a gentile, then he was really fooling himself.
This post seems to contradict itself. You say that Wagner's antisemitism was just as important in the creation of his works as Mitchell's alleged racism was in creating one of the greatest novels of all time which you unfortunately seem to have taken upon yourself to declare invalid. But then you declare, rightly, that you find "the argument that his operas are antisemitic tracts ultimately unconvincing." You claim, however, that Meistersinger contains "antisemitic signals" and "code"...Clarification please?
How political, or even racial, tracts (no records exist, to my knowledge, of Wagner physically harming a Jew) can be viewed as more "dirty" than pedophilia, adultery, and the rest is beyond me.
People who are emotionally or mentally torn create the best art. Normal people are the exception.
And i heard (i can not remember from where) Tchaikovsky dedicated his 6th symphony to his nephew Bob, who killed himself after Uncle Peter came over to stay with him and his family. Tchaikovsky fell in love with Bob and had intimate relations. Bob was 10 and apparently hung himself around 2 weeks after Tchaikovsky left. Tchaikovsky kind of never got over it.
Quote from: c#minor on May 18, 2009, 10:18:56 AM
People who are emotionally or mentally torn create the best art.
Hog. Wash.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 18, 2009, 10:54:38 AM
Hog. Wash.
This, on the other hand:
"Music must first and foremost be loved; it must come from the heart and it must be directed to the heart. Otherwise it cannot hope to be lasting, indestructible art." - Sergey Rachmaninov
Quote from: c#minor on May 18, 2009, 10:18:56 AM
Bob was 10 and apparently hung himself around 2 weeks after Tchaikovsky left. Tchaikovsky kind of never got over it.
It's very easy to google your facts right instead of writing BS from memory. Vladimir ("Bob") Davidov shot himself 1906 at the age of 34.
While generally I think it's fair to say that "dirty laundry" of this nature is nothing more than that, there are certainly cases where it's not irrelevant.
Britten's homosexuality (and in particular his sexual attraction to early-teenage boys) is a very obvious subtext in many of his song cycles and operas. I don't think I, at least, can view them quite in the same way knowing this. Similarly, Szymanowski's sexual proclivities are an integral part of King Roger.
In a world where homosexuality seems to be increasingly accepted, perhaps there will be less of a need for composers to express that particular type of otherness in music. However, I am sure there will always be creative artists who feel that kind of alienation from mainstream society and express it in their work.
Quote from: Wilhelm Richard on May 18, 2009, 09:46:54 AM
This post seems to contradict itself. You say that Wagner's antisemitism was just as important in the creation of his works as Mitchell's alleged racism was in creating one of the greatest novels of all time which you unfortunately seem to have taken upon yourself to declare invalid. But then you declare, rightly, that you find "the argument that his operas are antisemitic tracts ultimately unconvincing." You claim, however, that Meistersinger contains "antisemitic signals" and "code"...Clarification please?
No, I don't think I am contradiciting myself. What I'm saying is that that Wagner's antisemitism would be a great hindrance to my appreciation of the operas, much Mitchell's racial politics prevent me from reading Gone with the Wind, or Eliot's antisemtism interfers with my appreciation of his poetry, if the presence of antisemitism in the operas could be proven to my satisfaction. The issue is an important one to me, and I was able to come to grips with it only after extensive reading. And I do not claim that Meistersinger contains racial codes. Weiner does. I was paraphrasing him. Read the book.
As it is, there are lots of other things that prevent me from fully appreciating Wagner's operas, which, to me, have become a test of endurance.
Quote from: Wilhelm Richard on May 18, 2009, 09:46:54 AM
How political, or even racial, tracts (no records exist, to my knowledge, of Wagner physically harming a Jew) can be viewed as more "dirty" than pedophilia, adultery, and the rest is beyond me.
This is a good point, but it's a question of the art and our relationship to it. The usual defense of Wagner is that the creator's personal failings do not and should not interefere with our appreciation of a great work of art. But the converse of that argument is that a demonstrably antisemitic work would be more objectionable than, say, nonpedophlic art written by a pedophile. In the former case, we are being asked, as consumers of music, to consent to an obectionable idea, to become, as it were, its co-conspirators. In the latter, we are being asked to overlook a personal failing that in our day would be regarded as a crime. Whether we choose to do so would depend largely on whether we like the music more than we deplore the crime.
Quote from: c#minor on May 18, 2009, 10:18:56 AM
People who are emotionally or mentally torn create the best art.
This excludes Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Verdi, Rachmaninoff, Richard Strauss, Goethe, Schiller, Balzac, Gabriel Garcia Marquez or Mario Vargas Llosa (to name but a few) from the realm of "best art". ???
From what I've heard about Britten, he had a definite attraction to boys, but unfortunately he had enough self control and never actually did anything untoward.
Quote from: Florestan on May 18, 2009, 12:01:21 PM
This excludes Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Verdi, Rachmaninoff, Richard Strauss, Goethe, Schiller, Balzac, Gabriel Garcia Marquez or Mario Vargas Llosa (to name but a few) from the realm of "best art". ???
Yes, but it might be interesting, yet utterly futile, to speculate what kind of an output a "free" and "happy" Shostakovich would have created.
Quote from: Superhorn on May 18, 2009, 12:06:04 PM
From what I've heard about Britten, he had a definite attraction to boys, but unfortunately he had enough self control and never actually did anything untoward.
Do you mean fortunately?
Quote from: Superhorn on May 18, 2009, 12:06:04 PMFrom what I've heard about Britten, he had a definite attraction to boys, but unfortunately he had enough self control and never actually did anything untoward.
Here's something that claims exactly the opposite. (http://www.wrightmusic.org.uk/britten.html) It is certainly acidic, and I can't vouch for it's accuracy at all, but it makes for lurid reading. (Perhaps the author is a crackpot?)
Quote from: Todd on May 18, 2009, 02:46:45 PM
Here's something that claims exactly the opposite. (http://www.wrightmusic.org.uk/britten.html) It is certainly acidic, and I can't vouch for it's accuracy at all, but it makes for lurid reading. (Perhaps the author is a crackpot?)
I don't know the answer, but MusicWeb International sure thinks he's a crackpot. Once a contributor to the website, the owner eventually removed all traces of the guy.
Quote from: Bulldog on May 18, 2009, 03:21:58 PMI don't know the answer, but MusicWeb International sure thinks he's a crackpot. Once a contributor to the website, the owner eventually removed all traces of the guy.
That certainly doesn't enhance his credibility.
Quote from: matti on May 18, 2009, 12:12:51 PM
Yes, but it might be interesting, yet utterly futile, to speculate what kind of an output a "free" and "happy" Shostakovich would have created.
I think the pre-
Pravda-editorial output indicates that
Shostakovich possessed musical greatness regardless of the roller coaster which was his life after. And he was certainly nothing
mentally torn; his musical discipline is legendary.
Quote from: Bulldog on May 18, 2009, 03:21:58 PM
I don't know the answer, but MusicWeb International sure thinks he's a crackpot. Once a contributor to the website, the owner eventually removed all traces of the guy.
Eeeek!! I stopped reading David Wright's incendiary article after the first few paragraphs. It was beginning to make me feel quite sick!
I agree that Wright is an author with extremely strongly expressed views and I cannot comment on the veracity of his claims about Britten.
I would just however point out that "all traces" have most certainly not been removed from the Musicweb International Website. His lengthy and detailed articles on British composers like Richard Arnell, Peter Racine Fricker, John Gardner, William Mathias, Humphrey Searle and John Veale are still very much available on the website.
When Wright eschews comments on the personal lives of his subjects and concentrates on their music he is informative and-as far as I can judge from his discussion of works I have heard-his musical judgments are pretty sound.
Quote from: matti on May 18, 2009, 11:01:03 AM
It's very easy to google your facts right instead of writing BS from memory. Vladimir ("Bob") Davidov shot himself 1906 at the age of 34.
Ah my laziness bites me again. Well at least a got the killing himself right, and kind of the Bob.
Quote from: Florestan on May 18, 2009, 12:01:21 PM
This excludes Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Verdi, Rachmaninoff, Richard Strauss, Goethe, Schiller, Balzac, Gabriel Garcia Marquez or Mario Vargas Llosa (to name but a few) from the realm of "best art". ???
There are exceptions, there are exceptions. They are just the lucky ones.
Quote from: c#minor on May 18, 2009, 04:37:42 PM
There are exceptions, there are exceptions. They are just the lucky ones.
No; your thesis is romantified rubbish.
I say who really cares what a person did. Their art is not tainted by their morality. Even if there is a direct link, it was written to be beautiful, not to bring people on to the pedo-wagon.
Quote from: Todd on May 18, 2009, 02:46:45 PM
Here's something that claims exactly the opposite. (http://www.wrightmusic.org.uk/britten.html) It is certainly acidic, and I can't vouch for it's accuracy at all, but it makes for lurid reading. (Perhaps the author is a crackpot?)
I was just sharing this thread with a friend of mine and he pointed out that the article includes this gem:
QuoteIn fact, Elgar and Britten had a lot in common. They were both arrogant, bad tempered, ruthless, toadies, abusers, emotional thugs and sexually perverted. In Elgar's case he always insisted that women who took part in any of his works always wore navy blue knickers and he sometimes inspected them to see that his wishes were being complied with. Elgar was bisexual and often tried to steal women from their husbands. Walton once said that the greatest composer of our time was Shostakovich and at the other end of the spectrum was Elgar, bloody Elgar! ... Elgar was a disgusting individual with a fetish for ladies in navy blue underwear. He wrote a Cello Concerto for Beatrice Harrison to play so she would have to open her legs and he insisted that she always wore navy blue knickers. He insisted that women in the chorus and orchestra of his works did likewise and often inspected them to ensure this.
But of course he didn't write it for Beatrice Harrison: "The premiere in 1919 had been given by the cellist Felix Salmond, but the composer/soloist mix had not been a great success. Beatrice Harrison was the talented younger sister of May Harrison and she came highly recommended to Elgar by Landon Ronald following performances he had given with them of the Brahms Double Concerto." From the liner notes of my Naxos CD, "Elgar Conducts Elgar: Symphony No. 2, Cello Concerto," notes by Ian Julier.
My friend also points out this, on another page by the same author:
QuoteElgar is the only composer who has had a Depreciation Society in which famous musicians would discuss his work and its many weaknesses. At first, some may say that this society had evil intent and was fuelled by jealousy or some other unpleasantness or unfairness and that this society was out to damage Elgar's reputation.
The number of musicians who hated Elgar's music is considerable and include famous names. Ravel was physically sick whenever he heard Elgar and simply loathed the Cello Concerto; Sir Charles Villiers Stanford also detested Elgar's music, including the Cello Concerto. There is that wonderful story that he wrote to Elgar one day and said that he was sitting in the smallest room in his house with a copy of the Elgar Cello Concerto before him but that, thankfully, it would soon be behind him.
[my friend's AOL instant message screenname] (9:00:49 PM): and sir charles stanford didnt write that review
[s/n] (9:00:52 PM): it was by max reger
[s/n] (9:01:01 PM): and i think it was reger responding to a critic
EDIT: Clarification in following post
First post - I've been long told by Brian to post on here, as I'm a Music History/Musicologist major at a music school and always love a good discussion, but I'm also very lazy. But here I go.
Reading David Wright's articles, at least on Benjamin Britten and Edward Elgar, I want to say that most of the claims put forth are completely false. Most. There are kernels of truth in them, but I have never read or heard half of what he says, and the other half is patently false. Many of his quotes do not belong to the people he ascribes them to.
QuoteThe number of musicians who hated Elgar's music is considerable and include famous names. Ravel was physically sick whenever he heard Elgar and simply loathed the Cello Concerto; Sir Charles Villiers Stanford also detested Elgar's music, including the Cello Concerto. There is that wonderful story that he wrote to Elgar one day and said that he was sitting in the smallest room in his house with a copy of the Elgar Cello Concerto before him but that, thankfully, it would soon be behind him.
This was Max Reger, in response to Rudolph Louis (a music critic for
Muchner Neuste Nachrichten
).
And to respond to the Britten - There is some truth in Wright's attacks; I am not terribly familiar with Britten's sexual history (It would be rather odd of me to be though), but I know that there may have been something involving younger boys. However his characterizations of Britten's music are for the most part false (I confess I am not terribly well versed ). Billy Budd is not about the sexual frustration of sailors and their release in homosexual sex, for example...yeah, I too went "wtf mate" when I read that. The only other times I've heard Billy Budd described thusly was by an arrogant high school student trying to annoy our English teacher and some over-titled academics. I suppose I can count Mr Wright among their esteemed ranks.
Anyways, I would instinctively not believe anything Wright says. Read it as entertainment, not as truth.
Also, to throw out something, reflect on the rather creep origins of Berlioz's
Symphonie Fantastique. Does our knowing about his stalker/obsessive tendencies color what we think or how we interpret the story. Although I do have a female friend who told me that if a man wrote a whole symphony about her she'd go for him...
Yes!! You finally posted!
Quote from: lordlawler on May 18, 2009, 06:45:03 PM
Also, to throw out something, reflect on the rather creep origins of Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique. Does our knowing about his stalker/obsessive tendencies color what we think or how we interpret the story. Although I do have a female friend who told me that if a man wrote a whole symphony about her she'd go for him...
Sinfonia seductivaBy BrianI. Allegro aggressivo
II. Toccata temptosa
III. Serenata sensitiva (quasi una casanova)
IV. Rondo alla pollaca in missionario posizione
Quote from: lordlawler on May 18, 2009, 06:45:03 PM
First post - I've been long told by Brian to post on here, as I'm a Music History/Musicologist major at a music school and always love a good discussion, but I'm also very lazy.
Welcome! Any friend of
Brian's, &c.
QuoteAlso, to throw out something, reflect on the rather creep origins of Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique. Does our knowing about his stalker/obsessive tendencies color what we think or how we interpret the story.
"Stalker tendencies" I think is quite a harsh coloring of the circs (I allow that you're being rhetorical); we aren't talking Mark David Chapman, for mercy's sake.
OTOH, I also think that
Lenny was guilty of a stretch with his "
Berlioz Takes a Trip" wheeze.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 18, 2009, 07:02:12 PM
OTOH, I also think that Lenny was guilty of a stretch with his "Berlioz Takes a Trip" wheeze.
Wasn't Berlioz a poppy head?
Maybe I should have titled this thread "Wasn't Berlioz a Poppy Head." I wonder if we would have gotten HERE, though...
wow- I was wondering how this thread ballooned to five pages, and then I read that Britten piece.
uh...I don't know what to say. That was one of the sickest things I've ever read (but of course that's exactly what I'd been hoping for!). oy oy oy...so, you all say that Wright's wrong? Honestly, I'm still reeling. My first question was, if Wright was born in 1946, he certainly wouldn't have been very old when he got all this, right?
I mean, can't anyone verify something as simple as Britten's alleged horrendous temper? I mean, I know gay spoiled brats who act like what Wright claims (just not famous). It seems to come with the territory. And honestly, Wright's assessment seemed like par for the course with megalomaniacs, like, is it really THAT shocking? But did all those other British composers (Walton, Arnold, etc) really hate Britten? With astounding claims one needs outstanding proof...any independent varification? Amazing how they apparently hated Britten's music. I have found it sort of lacking, perhaps, but never offensively, as I do with Philip Glass (a jew a jew, blame the jews!).
However, the Reger comment, yea (however Stanford could have simply been repeating a great line...not that I'm defending Wright, just that it could have been a repetition).
oh...I feel like I'm going to be sick. :-X
I did also read his essay on Morals and Character, which is kind of the question I've been begging here, and I think Wright makes many interesting points (including Rachmaninov recovering).
Well, apparently none of us here at GMG have come up with a character quite like Wright's Britten, and for me, it seems neccesary to HAVE a character so vile to do this comparing of art/morals (perhaps painters would be easier). I must admit, Britten's music has a distinctiveness about it that sort of sets it apart (one of those things I can't really put my finger in...oops, I mean, on).
I mean, with film directors, this kind of debate would seem easier, no? Hitchcock, Pasolini, Vanderhoven?, Visconti...I mean, a Calvinist director isn't going to direct "Salo." Go with what you know.
Someone here wrote, (paraphrasing) "pedophilia...anti-semitism...and if there is anything worse..." I'd love to know "what's worse." It seems like the general consensus that these are the worst things a man can be.
I don't want to touch "anti-semitism" right now, because a few differing points have been brought up, and I don't want to impede the flow of this Britten thing until we have beaten that to death first. (no idea which smiley face to "insert" here (oh boy, the puns are showing through...there goes my career).
Still, I think this Britten thing is important, because either it's (fairly) true, or it is slanderous libel, which is a crime also.
The problem if it is true is that that may mean there are other "untouchables" who have been given a pass.
Igor, have you ever attended a black mass?
Thankfully I am ambivilant towards Britten's music, so this thing doesn't really affect me. HOWEVER, had it been Finzi!!! I would probably be stinking drunk by now.
But please, can we get some more verifiables and less opinions? I think the "disturbing" factor warrents it.
Boy did I open a can of worms. I feel dirty.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 18, 2009, 04:07:53 PM
I think the pre-Pravda-editorial output indicates that Shostakovich possessed musical greatness regardless of the roller coaster which was his life after. And he was certainly nothing mentally torn; his musical discipline is legendary.
All true, of course, and I'm not trying to romanticize his misery at all. Under different circumstances his work would have been equally masterful, only different. But wouldn't you say being forced to constantly throw curveballs added an extra dimension to his compositions?
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 18, 2009, 04:22:19 PM
When Wright eschews comments on the personal lives of his subjects and concentrates on their music he is informative and-as far as I can judge from his discussion of works I have heard-his musical judgments are pretty sound.
I beg to differ. I recall a Wright article which said (paraphrasing) "fine a composer as Mozart was, he pales in comparison to the genius that was Salieri."
He also wrote an extensive article trashing Beethoven's late quartets.
The guy
is entertaining, though.
Why I just spent an hour trolling through British pedophile sites is beyond me, but apparently Lewis Carroll, Baden-Powell (founder of the boy scouts), Barrie (Peter Pan) and even my dear departed step father's hero Montgomery had some issues. Of course Britten figures also. That was David hemmings the actor? How bout that.
Uh....I really wasn't ready to step in such a pile. Sorry, call me naive, but Lewis Carroll, Barrie, and Baden-Powell???? ugh ugh ugh
In the words of Johnny Carson, "I did not know that."
No confirmation of Wright, just the "established" theory that he never acted on his thoughts, an "intellectual pedophile," well, except for a story about a dual family trip (forget the boy's name) that ended with Britten leaving early after an apparently unsuccessful midnight bedroom visit to his friend.
I'll admit that I only got a few pages into the search before my lunch came up, so...
Anyhow...I can't even think right now (Lewis Carroll?). Sorry if I tend to believe the possibility of Wright's accusations, but I had a near miss when I was young (a priest), and have a few personal examples of artists who travelled down the road of "oh youth, thy flower buds."
I tend to believe the arts are full of mostly creeps.
I also ran into more art/morality forums which further deepened the issue we've been discussing. Sorry if I can't seem to formulate any thoughts right now, but it does seem like the actual notes of music are what is being held hostage.
I think I've learned more today about the artistic/human condition than I have for a while, and I'm not sure I'm willing to share that with you right now.
Perhaps when I started the thread I figured that by simple statistics there MUST be a monster composer out there somewhere, but I wasn't prepared to contemplate the things into which I have stepped. And I'm not neccesarily talking about Britten anymore.
Why do we tolerate behaviour in artists that we wouldn't in others? I'm starting to think the whole "art" thing is a load of crap if this is to be our double standard. Many serial killers think of their wet work as art, too.
"oh, but he wrote so beautifully.." yea, ok.
Dirty laundry, indeed. Yuk.
Quote from: c#minor on May 18, 2009, 04:37:42 PM
There are exceptions, there are exceptions. They are just the lucky ones.
Your views on art and artists are romanticized and distorted.
Quote from: Spitvalve on May 18, 2009, 09:46:26 PM
I beg to differ. I recall a Wright article which said (paraphrasing) "fine a composer as Mozart was, he pales in comparison to the genius that was Salieri."
He also wrote an extensive article trashing Beethoven's late quartets.
The guy is entertaining, though.
Sorry...I should have qualified my remarks to say that I was speaking only about Wright's articles on the British composers I cited on Musicweb.
Oops! I did mean to say fortunately about Britten. Freudian slip?
That's what women psychiatrists wear under their dresses.
I've also heard that one of the original lines in the libretto of Billy Budd was "clear the deck of seamen ! But they thought this was such a hilarious double entendre it was eliminated.
Do coprophiliacs like to go to the poop deck of ships?
;D ;D ;D ;D
Why don't we get rid of the pretentious excuse of "composers'...", thus making it appear to be related to music, and simply talk about "dirty laundry" or, even better, "dirty", period.
Great shots at http://www.dirtpile.com/ (http://www.dirtpile.com/).
The real dirt on that site: They couldn't be bothered to hire a copy editor, so the Directory is misspelled.
Quote from: springrite on May 19, 2009, 07:28:52 AM
Why don't we get rid of the pretentious excuse of "composers'...", thus making it appear to be related to music, and simply talk about "dirty laundry" or, even better, "dirty", period.
Biography is nothing more than highminded gossip. Literature, too: Look at Oedipus. look at Hamlet. It's all dish. The fact that it's well-written is just a bonus. ;)
It's interesting that in classical music guides they always refer to Britten and Pears being 'lifelong partners etc' which sounds romanticised and idealistic, then you read some of the gossip from these pages and your toes curl... ;)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 19, 2009, 07:33:16 AM
Great shots at http://www.dirtpile.com/ (http://www.dirtpile.com/).
The real dirt on that site: They couldn't be bothered to hire a copy editor, so the Directory is misspelled.
But they do have some good looking dirt to sell.
Quote from: Brian on May 18, 2009, 06:51:03 PM
Sinfonia seductiva
By Brian
I. Allegro aggressivo
II. Toccata temptosa
III. Serenata sensitiva (quasi una casanova)
IV. Rondo alla pollaca in missionario posizione
OMG Brian I can't believe you HA!
Anyway - all this talk of
Wagner and anti-semiticism, what about Wagner and homosexuality? King Ludwig II was obsessed with him and also infatuated romantically from what I understand - did Wagner ever return the affection? Or perhaps did he only to lead on Ludwig so he would fund completion of
The Ring? I never continued with my Wagner research enough to dig up more on how faaar that relationship went.
Leonard Bernstein, everyone knows about his follies - I just can't quite figure out if he was truly bi or actually just gay and tried to keep up appearances.
I once read something interesting about Lukas Foss and his wife Cornelia - she had a longstanding affair with Glenn Gould, I think it was quite secret and not known until years later or something?
For more dirty laundry, albeit not from a composer, check out Toscanini's letters......oooh, raunchy stuff lol. Talk about a true Italian
casanova!
Quote from: Senta on May 19, 2009, 09:47:10 PMAnyway - all this talk of Wagner and anti-semiticism, what about Wagner and homosexuality? King Ludwig II was obsessed with him and also infatuated romantically from what I understand - did Wagner ever return the affection? Or perhaps did he only to lead on Ludwig so he would fund completion of The Ring? I never continued with my Wagner research enough to dig up more on how faaar that relationship went.
Leonard Bernstein, everyone knows about his follies - I just can't quite figure out if he was truly bi or actually just gay and tried to keep up appearances.
But who cares about homosexuality per se? I realize that was considered shameful in a past age, but don't most of us today recognize people's sexuality as their private business--whether straight, gay, or in-between--as long as they don't violate the rights of others?
Quote from: Bulldog on May 19, 2009, 08:51:51 PM
But they do have some good looking dirt to sell.
Some of it downright historical.
Yaaah, one of my threads finally hit 100!!! ;D ;D ;D
SNYPRrR'S FIRST 100!!! SNYPRRR'S FIRST 100!!! SNYPRrR'S FIRST 100!!!
Woohoo...sorry it had to be this one! :-X
snyprrr's going to remind us that he started this topic every page, now
No bleach or starch, please.
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 20, 2009, 03:40:15 AM
But who cares about homosexuality per se? I realize that was considered shameful in a past age, but don't most of us today recognize people's sexuality as their private business--whether straight, gay, or in-between--as long as they don't violate the rights of others?
One view is that we are each isolated from one another so what happens in private stays a personal matter. Another view, however, is that we are all interconnected in some way so that even private actions effect everyone.
Quote from: The Six on May 20, 2009, 09:40:08 AM
snyprrr's going to remind us that he started this topic every page, now
duly noted :P ;D
Quote from: snyprrr on May 16, 2009, 03:37:16 PM
...cousin marrying...
That would be Grieg. Not necessarily all that dirty though, especially considering it didn't have such a negative stigma attached to it then and there.
I recall a story about Copland and "?" walking a campus, when some hunk walks by and Copland says, "There goes my fourth symphony." Ha. ::)
What's with all the gay 20th century American composers?
Some people have opined here concerning...um, how to say...a composer's person CAN'T get into the music, I mean, how can you tell the composer's person from his music?, and many have said that this isn't possible.
But then I realized that in pop music this definitely holds true, and I came up with some admittedly stereotypical examples: Scorpions vs. Peter Gabriel. Please give me a smidge of leeway, but it is most evident by the former's music AND lyrics (backed up by interviews) what they're all about (I was going to use AC/DC). I mean, just in general, this brand of metal is pretty dumb (post Uli Roth) and there are no bones about the guys' general aim. Perhaps Guns n Roses or Eminem might have been an example, but I hope you get my general drift.
On the other hand, Peter Gabriel has always come off, if nothing else, as Mr. Sincerity, and this too comes out in his words and music and interviews.
I know metal heads who just won't go near a band if the band's "integrity" doesn't match these fans' high standards. And believe it or not, many metal heads have morals (most real metal bands don't sing about p****).
So, I guess my question is, How can this art/morals thing be so obvious here, but not obvious in the classical world?
I know no one's perfect, so, like I said, give the argument room. Is there a point here, or no?
btw- that Britten thing reminded me of the main bad guy in the movie "Rope"...but judging from any lack of follow up, people have sided with Britten and want to drop the issue. I get the feeling that if I don't take Britten's side, people will judge and ignore me. I just like the unvarnished truth, whatever it may be. The truth doesn't HAVE to be ugly, it's just that it usually is?
Quote from: The Six on May 20, 2009, 08:11:28 PM
What's with all the gay 20th century American composers?
Paris in the 20s?
New York?
and no, they're not ALL Jewish, either, ha!
uh...ARE they??? ::)
Quote from: Lethe on May 17, 2009, 01:44:20 AM
Grainger... Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Grainger#Personality) seems to have a somewhat censored mention of it.
Interesting:
Grainger was a vegetarian who was not particularly fond of vegetables, and lived variously on nuts, boiled rice, wheatcakes, cakes, bread and jam, ice cream and oranges.All my favorites, too. But I also love all kinds of fruits, macrioni and cheese, chips, popcorn, and candy. I tried to be a vegetarian for a while but I wasn't crazy about most vegetables. I like corn, lima beans but only with ham and black-eyed peas with bacon or ham hock and dry salad with salt and pepper. So since I don't like lima beans or black-eyed peas without meat I was left with only corn and dry salad. So I called myself, a
pastatarian.
I now eat meat occasionally, but I do feel guilty about it. Today for breakfast I had Captian Crunch and for Dinner I had a big bowl of rice with just butter, salt and pepper in it and Fruit Juice for my drink. Yes I know butter comes from a cow, but the cow didn't have to die to give it to me. My reason for eating as little meat as possible has nothing to do with heath reasons, but because I feel bad any time an animal has to die just so I can eat. But products that come out of living animals such as milk, butter and cheese I have no dilemma with. I think I can identify with this single trait of Percy Grainger's, the other ones are kinda weird.
Quote from: springrite on May 17, 2009, 08:28:15 AM
Is clean laundry still laundry, or just cloths?
It's clean laundry until it is put away and then it is clothes.
I made a lovely bowl of carbonara.
Quote from: Teresa on May 20, 2009, 09:25:38 PM
I think I can identify with this single trait of Percy Grainger's, the other ones are kinda weird.
8)
Quote from: Teresa on May 20, 2009, 09:25:38 PM
but because I feel bad any time an animal has to die just so I can eat.
And yet, the lion feels nothing but quenched hunger when it kills for food.
Oh, this human sympathy, what it does to us.
Quote from: The Six on May 20, 2009, 10:17:31 PM
And yet, the lion feels nothing but quenched hunger when it kills for food.
Oh, this human sympathy, what it does to us.
When I was a little girl I thought we only ate animals after they died of old age. And then I found out the meat would be no good and the animal had to be killed in their prime. I was shocked when I found out humans actually killed animals. Now in old age I still have a problem with it, if they would have just let me go on believing we only ate animals who died naturally I might have a better feeling about eating meat.
I am not a lion, I think humans should be further evolved than that!
Quote from: Teresa on May 20, 2009, 09:25:38 PM
I now eat meat occasionally, but I do feel guilty about it.
But not about killing vegetables to eat them? Or eating the unborn fetuses and placentas of fruit-bearing plants?
Quote from: Teresa on May 20, 2009, 11:58:52 PM
When I was a little girl I thought we only ate animals after they died of old age. And then I found out the meat would be no good and the animal had to be killed in their prime. I was shocked when I found out humans actually killed animals. Now in old age I still have a problem with it, if they would have just let me go on believing we only ate animals who died naturally I might have a better feeling about eating meat.
I am not a lion, I think humans should be further evolved than that!
Basically everything exists only to eat, poop, hump, and be eaten. Humans evolved enough to do other stuff.
Quote from: The Six on May 21, 2009, 07:02:54 AM
Basically everything exists only to eat, poop, hump, and be eaten. Humans evolved enough to do other stuff.
Like belch and hunt for the remote control.
ok, I will attempt veering this back on topic: MOST GLUTANEOUS COMPOSER? worst smelling composer? MOST INSATIABLE? wimpiest? COMPOSER MOST LIKELY TO GET INTO A SCUFFLE? composer with the biggest...
evolved, yes...highly!
Nothing sacred on this thread, that's for sure.
Quote from: snyprrr on May 21, 2009, 10:05:14 AM
ok, I will attempt veering this back on topic: MOST GLUTANEOUS COMPOSER? worst smelling composer? MOST INSATIABLE? wimpiest? COMPOSER MOST LIKELY TO GET INTO A SCUFFLE? composer with the biggest...
evolved, yes...highly!
Nothing sacred on this thread, that's for sure.
You're nuts, aren't you? ;D
Can't answer them all, but I can take a stab at two.
Quote from: snyprrr on May 21, 2009, 10:05:14 AMworst smelling composer?
Harry Partch.
Quote from: snyprrr on May 21, 2009, 10:05:14 AMCOMPOSER MOST LIKELY TO GET INTO A SCUFFLE?
Harry Partch.
Fattest composer might be Dussek, whose weight was legendary. Perhaps rivaled by Scarlatti (towards the end of his life, just as Dussek), who reputedly could not cross his arms to play certain harpsichord sections, due to his bulk.
Quote from: Lethe on May 21, 2009, 10:34:33 AM
Fattest composer might be Dussek, whose weight was legendary. Perhaps rivaled by Scarlatti (towards the end of his life, just as Dussek), who reputedly could not cross his arms to play certain harpsichord sections, due to his bulk.
Closely followed by Leif Segerstam who has been self ironic about his big belly and confessed he needs a mirror to see his c**k.
Drunkards, gamblers, womanizers, sexual perverts, homosexuals, paedophiles... these are not vices specific to composers, but universal human vices and I doubt that the percentage of paedophiles among composers is larger than that of the society at large.
Great art comes not form mental or emotional distress, but from talent / genius and hard work. Not every pacient of an asylum is a Schumann or a Hoelderlin; not every drunkard in a slum tavern is a Mussorgsky or a Faulkner; and not every brothel-going chap is a Baudelaire or a Van Gogh.
The artists are not superhuman types, beyond good and evil, to whom ordinary moral laws do not apply. On the contrary, they are human, only too human: their art is an expression of their full humanity and their behaviour is subjected to the same moral injunctions as that of any other mortal.
Mussorgsky is no excuse for drunkenness; neither is Mussorgsky being a drunkard an indictment of his artistic output (Rimsky-Korsakov meddling with it notwithstanding :) )
Quote from: snyprrr on May 17, 2009, 12:40:10 AM
ok, maybe I should have asked, "Which Russian composer was NOT a drunk?"...
...and the reason I didn't ask, "Which composer's mother wore army boots?" is because I get the feeling there is one.
C'mon, it's Saturday night!!!
We know about Mussorgsky...Sibelius...what about the addicts (Berlioz?...Merikanto?...no more???)? Americans in Paris???
What is it about artists like Vivier and Pasolini that gets them murdered by male prostitutes? Kinkiest composers?...Szymanowski?
(So...technically if you like Rachmaninov's best work you have Glazunov to thank? Interesting!...poor Rachy...)Yes, more stories like that.
Maybe I've seen too much TMZ?..."and I'm a lawya'"...arrrgh >:(
Maybe a better question would be, "Which composer was also a lawyer?" but I think we all know the answer to that.
I fear where this thread might be by mid week. Get the clampdown ready, boys...
What was Merikanto's problem? An alcoholic? Not unlike Sibelis, befre he recanted.
Quote from: schweitzeralan on June 30, 2009, 10:00:37 AM
What was Merikanto's problem? An alcoholic?
Morphine addiction.
Quote from: The Six on May 16, 2009, 11:15:05 PM
Boulez only changes his underwear once a week.
How often does he change his socks?
Quote from: matti on May 21, 2009, 10:43:16 AM
Closely followed by Leif Segerstam who has been self ironic about his big belly and confessed he needs a mirror to see his c**k.
Gosh, given the size of Segerstam's belly I think he might be better off if he were to see his cook less often, mirror or no. ;D
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 30, 2009, 12:54:38 PM
Gosh, given the size of Segerstam's belly I think he might be better off if he were to see his cook less often, mirror or no. ;D
;D
Quote from: Florestan on May 21, 2009, 11:04:14 AM
Great art comes not form mental or emotional distress, but from talent / genius and hard work. Not every pacient of an asylum is a Schumann or a Hoelderlin; not every drunkard in a slum tavern is a Mussorgsky or a Faulkner; and not every brothel-going chap is a Baudelaire or a Van Gogh.
Dude, tell me about it. I tried all these things; they still didn't make me into a genius :(
Quote from: Spitvalve on July 01, 2009, 11:23:41 PM
Dude, tell me about it. I tried all these things; they still didn't make me into a genius :(
;D
Quote from: Spitvalve on July 01, 2009, 11:23:41 PM
Dude, tell me about it. I tried all these things; they still didn't make me into a genius :(
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. ;)
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 30, 2009, 12:54:38 PM
Gosh, given the size of Segerstam's belly I think he might be better off if he were to see his cook less often, mirror or no. ;D
"It is only a
waffeur-thin mint!" (for Karl)
Yeah, I had a friend who went out of his way to admire alcoholic writers as (I strongly suspect) justification for his own immoderate habits.