GMG Classical Music Forum

BARTOK

BLUEBEARD'S CASTLE

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Barbebleue.jpg)


-THE PLOT-

The basic plot is loosely based on the folk tale "Bluebeard", but is given a heavily psychological reworking—some would say psychoanalytic or psychosexual, (see Bruno Bettelheim and The Uses of Enchantment).
Place: A huge, dark hall in a castle, with seven locked doors.
Time: Not defined.

Judith and Bluebeard arrive at his castle, which is all dark. Bluebeard asks Judith if she wants to stay and even offers her an opportunity to leave, but she decides to stay. Judith insists that all the doors be opened, to allow light to enter into the forbidding interior, insisting further that her demands are based on her love for Bluebeard. Bluebeard refuses, saying that they are private places not to be explored by others, and asking Judith to love him but ask no questions. Judith persists, and eventually prevails over his resistance.

The first door opens to reveal a torture chamber, stained with blood. Repelled, but then intrigued, Judith pushes on. Behind the second door is a storehouse of weapons, and behind the third a storehouse of riches. Bluebeard urges her on. Behind the fourth door is a secret garden of great beauty; behind the fifth, a window onto Bluebeard's vast kingdom. All is now sunlit, but blood has stained the riches, watered the garden, and grim clouds throw blood-red shadows over Bluebeard's kingdom.

Bluebeard pleads with her to stop: the castle is as bright as it can get, and will not get any brighter, but Judith refuses to be stopped after coming this far, and opens the penultimate sixth door, as a shadow passes over the castle. This is the first room that has not been somehow stained with blood; a silent silvery lake is all that lies within, "a lake of tears". Bluebeard begs Judith to simply love him, and ask no more questions. The last door must be shut forever. But she persists, asking him about his former wives, and then accusing him of having murdered them, suggesting that their blood was the blood everywhere, that their tears were those that filled the lake, and that their bodies lie behind the last door. At this, Bluebeard hands over the last key.

Behind the door are Bluebeard's three former wives, but still alive, dressed in crowns and jewellery. They emerge silently, and Bluebeard, overcome with emotion, prostrates himself before them and praises each in turn, finally turning to Judith and beginning to praise her as his fourth wife. She is horrified, begs him to stop, but it is too late. He dresses her in the jewellery they wear, which she finds exceedingly heavy. Her head drooping under the weight, she follows the other wives along a beam of moonlight through the seventh door. It closes behind her, and Bluebeard is left alone as all fades to total darkness.

[Article taken from Wikipedia]

What do all you guys think about this opera? I've been obsessing over it ever since I bought Istvan Kertesz's LSO recording with Christa Ludwig and Walter Berry. The whole experience is bone-chilling. It's very different for an opera as well where it's more about psychological drama. Do you guys have any favorite recordings of this work?

I love this opera to bits, although it disturbed me deeply the first time I heard it. I've got a few recordings and the Solti video. My favourites are:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JR53M6DNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

And:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_2FPyhWHwYto/TDD4j-S3m4I/AAAAAAAAAW8/vA2LTk1CMYc/s320/B%C3%A9la+Bart%C3%B3k-+Bluebeard's+Castle+-+bernard+Haitink.jpeg)

I've not heard the Kertész, which I understand is very good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmGX7NpqNRE

Quote from: MDL on January 25, 2011, 01:52:34 PM
I love this opera to bits, although it disturbed me deeply the first time I heard it. I've got a few recordings and the Solti video. My favourites are:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JR53M6DNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

And:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_2FPyhWHwYto/TDD4j-S3m4I/AAAAAAAAAW8/vA2LTk1CMYc/s320/B%C3%A9la+Bart%C3%B3k-+Bluebeard's+Castle+-+bernard+Haitink.jpeg)

I've not heard the Kertész, which I understand is very good.

The Kertesz is mandatory listening as far as I'm concerned if this gives you a clue about how much I love it! ;) But seriously, it's a legendary performance no doubt about it. Every Bartok fan I've spoken with holds this recording deep to their hearts. I would love to get the Haitink, but it's way too expensive and unfortunately out-of-print, but I have my eyes for sure.

[The following is a copy-and-paste from the Bartok thread that I posted]

So far I have three excellent recordings of Bluebeard's Castle:

-Kertesz, Christa Ludwig, Walter Berry, LSO, Decca
-Eotvos, Cornelia Kallisch, Peter Fried, SWR Radio Symphony Orch., Hanssler Classic
-Boulez, Jessye Norman, Laszlo Polgar, CSO, DG

The dark horse of the three that I own so far is the Eotvos. This is unbelievably good performance. Both vocalists, whom were both unknown to me, have the right weight in their voices for their roles. Cornelia Kallisch, in particular, has a beautiful voice. Peter Fried sung a fantastic Bluebeard and, so far, is one of the best ones I've heard since Berry. The orchestral accompaniment from Eotvos and the SWR Orchestra will leave you breathless. Although this performance didn't get a lot of press, for whatever reason, I think it gives the classic Kertesz a run for its money.

Yesterday night I bought two more recordings of Bluebeard:

-Fischer, Eva Marton, Samuel Ramey, Hungarian State Orch., Sony
-Gergiev, Elena Zhidkova, Willard White, LSO Live

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 25, 2011, 02:06:25 PMThe dark horse of the three that I own so far is the Eotvos. This is unbelievably good performance. Both vocalists, whom were both unknown to me, have the right weight in their voices for their roles. Cornelia Kallisch, in particular, has a beautiful voice. Peter Fried sung a fantastic Bluebeard and, so far, is one of the best ones I've heard since Berry. The orchestral accompaniment from Eotvos and the SWR Orchestra will leave you breathless. Although this performance didn't get a lot of press, for whatever reason, I think it gives the classic Kertesz a run for its money.

Is the introductory text spoken during the prelude?

Quote from: Scarpia on January 25, 2011, 05:16:25 PM
Is the introductory text spoken during the prelude?

I don't think it does, Scarps, I'll have to listen again. Most recordings don't have the introduction. The Boulez on DG that arrived a few days ago has the spoken introduction though.

Haitink's includes the prologue. To be a wishy-washy heretic, I don't really care about the prologue. If it's there, fine. If it's not, I don't miss it.

Quote from: MDL on January 26, 2011, 03:12:11 AM
Haitink's includes the prologue. To be a wishy-washy heretic, I don't really care about the prologue. If it's there, fine. If it's not, I don't miss it.

I'm not going to get any recording unless I'm sure the prologue is not spoken during the music.

Having experienced the opera in concert performance twice now here in Symphony, both with a mercurial Magyar delivering the spoken Prologue . . . I really should not want at all to be without that intro!

YMMV . . . .

It's a great, great piece, and I think its power is underscored by this personal anecdote:  My wife and mom-in-law, after the first BSO performance, felt that they never wanted to endure that creepy story ever again; they were not enthusiastic when I suggested going to the performance earlier this month;  but the second time, they both came away singing the work's praises.

I've seen Bluebeard staged several times, including once in Budapest, and have seen a few concert performances. In all the stagings, the prologue was included, and I think it does add a certain frisson to a live situation. But for home listening, I'm sitting on the fence.

They can recite it or not, I don't understand Hungarian so what's the difference?  But I heard excerpts of a Fischer recording where it was spoken during the orchestral introduction.  That is what I object to, I want to hear that music without the talking.

Apart from Kertesz I have the old Boulez on CBS LP, in which Tatiana Troyanos is simply ravishing*. The most stunning performance I have heard, from an orchestral point of view, was conducted by Christoph von Dohnanyi at the Frankfurt Opera many years ago - I was sitting at the front (late return, lucky me), and I was blown away by the climaxes!
* http://idalopes.blogspot.com/2010/11/bartok-bluebeards-castle-tatiana.html

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 26, 2011, 04:35:38 AM
Having experienced the opera in concert performance twice now here in Symphony, both with a mercurial Magyar delivering the spoken Prologue . . . I really should not want at all to be without that intro!

YMMV . . . .

It's a great, great piece, and I think its power is underscored by this personal anecdote:  My wife and mom-in-law, after the first BSO performance, felt that they never wanted to endure that creepy story ever again; they were not enthusiastic when I suggested going to the performance earlier this month;  but the second time, they both came away singing the work's praises.

Oh yes, Karl, even something as darkly tuneful as this work will find a way into the hearts of cautious listeners.

Quote from: mjwal on January 26, 2011, 06:04:28 AM
Apart from Kertesz I have the old Boulez on CBS LP, in which Tatiana Troyanos is simply ravishing*. The most stunning performance I have heard, from an orchestral point of view, was conducted by Christoph von Dohnanyi at the Frankfurt Opera many years ago - I was sitting at the front (late return, lucky me), and I was blown away by the climaxes!
* http://idalopes.blogspot.com/2010/11/bartok-bluebeards-castle-tatiana.html (http://idalopes.blogspot.com/2010/11/bartok-bluebeards-castle-tatiana.html)

That was my introduction to the work as well (the LP came in a box with a great reproduction of a painting by Max Ernst). I have always loved it. On one level it says something quite true, but uncomfortable, about (artistic) men and their relationship to women - they'd rather idealise/immortalise them, i.e. symbolically kill them, than live with the flesh-and-blood creature... But perhaps this is the truth of an earlier age? I don't know that many contemporary artists who practice sublimation-through-Art.

Quote from: MDL on January 25, 2011, 01:52:34 PM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_2FPyhWHwYto/TDD4j-S3m4I/AAAAAAAAAW8/vA2LTk1CMYc/s320/B%C3%A9la+Bart%C3%B3k-+Bluebeard's+Castle+-+bernard+Haitink.jpeg)

I've not heard the Kertész, which I understand is very good.

This is one of my favorite recordings of this piece (which I love, too). I have not yet heard the Kertész, either--and want to. Both that and the Eötvös are both on my "to get" list. I agree that the later one with Boulez and Chicago is excellent, and very well sung. Jessye Norman doesn't sound like the most vulnerable Judith, but she sings the hell out of the part. I also love the Sawallisch, with Julia Varady.

The ones I have are:

Boulez/Troyanos/Nimsgern/BBC
Boulez/Norman/Polgar/Chicago SO
Elder/Burgess/Howell/BBC Wales
Haitink/von Otter/Tomlinson/Berlin PO
Kubelik/Troyanos/Nimsgern/NYPO (live recording from 1981)
Sawallisch/Varady/Fischer-Dieskau/Bavarian State
Solti/Sass/Kovats/LPO (DVD)

Quote from: mjwal on January 26, 2011, 06:04:28 AM
Apart from Kertesz I have the old Boulez on CBS LP, in which Tatiana Troyanos is simply ravishing*.

* http://idalopes.blogspot.com/2010/11/bartok-bluebeards-castle-tatiana.html

Quote from: Jezetha on January 26, 2011, 08:32:16 AM
That was my introduction to the work as well (the LP came in a box with a great reproduction of a painting by Max Ernst). I have always loved it.

And for me, too! (The CD I have is a Japanese pressing, with the same Ernst painting on it.) I still love that performance. At the opening of the fifth door, Troyanos holds that note longer than anyone else I've ever heard.

--Bruce

Quote from: bhodges on January 26, 2011, 08:39:41 AMThis is one of my favorite recordings of this piece (which I love, too). I have not yet heard the Kertész, either--and want to. Both that and the Eötvös are both on my "to get" list. I agree that the later one with Boulez and Chicago is excellent, and very well sung. Jessye Norman doesn't sound like the most vulnerable Judith, but she sings the hell out of the part. I also love the Sawallisch, with Julia Varady.

The ones I have are:

Boulez/Troyanos/Nimsgern/BBC
Boulez/Norman/Polgar/Chicago SO
Elder/Burgess/Howell/BBC Wales
Haitink/von Otter/Tomlinson/Berlin PO
Kubelik/Troyanos/Nimsgern/NYPO (live recording from 1981)
Sawallisch/Varady/Fischer-Dieskau/Bavarian State
Solti/Sass/Kovats/LPO (DVD)

You've got a good collection there, Bruce! I noticed you don't have the Fischer, Marton/Ramey on Sony. I bought this one the other night, have you heard it? The Eotvos is outstanding, by the way, it may end being my favorite.

I have not yet heard Fischer's recording--not for any particular reason!--and would like to. And I'm a big fan of Eötvös, both as a conductor and composer, so I'm sure I'll get that one at some point.

PS, meant to mention that the Kubelik/NYPO version is part of this boxed set of broadcasts (http://www.amazon.com/Historic-Broadcasts-1923-1987-York-Philharmonic/dp/B000005BXE) from 1923-1987, but I stumbled across the single disc with the Bartók at a used CD store!

--Bruce

Any comment on Dorati's recording on Mercury?

Quote from: bhodges on January 26, 2011, 11:03:14 AMI have not yet heard Fischer's recording--not for any particular reason!--and would like to. And I'm a big fan of Eötvös, both as a conductor and composer, so I'm sure I'll get that one at some point.

The Eotvos lives up to the dark nature of the work. The SWR Orchestra gives this performance their all. Have you heard the Gergiev yet, Bruce? I bought this one as well.

Haven't heard Dorati's, but would like to--and Gergiev's, too.

PS, as for the spoken introduction, I like it, but don't have strong feelings if it's not included. On Haitink's recording it's done by Sandor Elès, who gives it his creepy, Boris Karloff best.  :D

--Bruce

Quote from: bhodges on January 26, 2011, 11:22:47 AM
Haven't heard Dorati's, but would like to--and Gergiev's, too.

PS, as for the spoken introduction, I like it, but don't have strong feelings if it's not included. On Haitink's recording it's done by Sandor Elès, who gives it his creepy, Boris Karloff best.  :D

--Bruce

I see.  On the Fischer recording on Philips it seems to be spoken over the orchestral introduction.  In most cases, it seems to be spoken separately, which is what I would prefer. 

Somewhat annoying that most recordings of this piece are out of print at the moment (including both Boulez and the Haitink).

Quote from: Scarpia on January 26, 2011, 11:31:29 AM
On the Fischer recording on Philips it seems to be spoken over the orchestral introduction.  In most cases, it seems to be spoken separately, which is what I would prefer. 

To me the introduction is most effective if the speaker begins alone, and then just before he finishes--maybe ten seconds or so--the quiet introduction begins underneath, almost creating the impression that the opera is being told in flashback. But again, no strong feelings, either way.

--Bruce

Re the spoken introduction - I love it, and I don't care that, not speaking Hungarian, I don't understand it without a translation to hand. How boring if we have to understand every word to make hearing the thing worthwhile! The fact that I can discern a shape, a rhyme, a rhythm, a pattern to it, but that I'm not sure exactly what it entails, actually increases the work's mysterious potency, for me. Though I haven't listened to the piece for quite a while, I can hear some of those words, chillingly, in my head right now.....regi var, regi mar....I don't even remember what that means, but it clearly means something, just out of reach (the castle is old, the story is old....? is that what the bit I'm remembering means?) and for me, that make it a tinglingly potent listening experience.

I have the Kertesz and the Haitink and I wouldn't be without either - but the Haitink is the one I return to most often, for some reason. The opera itself is one of a very select bunch for me - I think it's one of the finest and most significant operas of the 20th century, and a fitting expressionist-symbolist sibling to Debussy impressionist-symbolist Pelleas: both in their unique worlds of dream logic and half light... For me, the exquisite scoring of the music for the lake of tears is perhaps the supreme highlight of the score. A long time ago it was my mystery score 89 on The World's Finest Thread (I'd reattach it if I could - click here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg94063.html#msg94063) if you want to see it). Here is music where the ultra-detailed orchestration is everything (because the musical material itself is slight). With just brief flickers of instrumental sound Bartok paints the most extraordinary picture of water and waves, but also of tears, of sorrow, of time passing. Incredible.

Quote from: bhodges on January 26, 2011, 11:38:19 AM
To me the introduction is most effective if the speaker begins alone, and then just before he finishes--maybe ten seconds or so--the quiet introduction begins underneath, almost creating the impression that the opera is being told in flashback. But again, no strong feelings, either way.

I should check the score . . . I imagine that is how Bartók notated it.

Quote from: bhodges on January 26, 2011, 11:38:19 AM
To me the introduction is most effective if the speaker begins alone, and then just before he finishes--maybe ten seconds or so--the quiet introduction begins underneath, almost creating the impression that the opera is being told in flashback. But again, no strong feelings, either way.

--Bruce

Yes, I agree, those low string basses stealing in underneath is a wonderful moment, and, though it's not entirely clear, that way of performing it is what the layout of the score implies, IIRC (I'll check when I'm next at home!)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 26, 2011, 11:55:35 AM
I should check the score . . . I imagine that is how Bartók notated it.

As far as I remember from my treasured Philharmonia score, the poem is printed directly over the first lines of the score. As I said, I want to check now!

It's good to see that this opera has a good following here. I was completely skeptical of all opera for a long time, but when I heard Bluebeard's Castle, I finally had found an opera I could stand behind that I truly loved. If feel the same way about Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande and now Ravel's L'Enfant et les sortileges. These operas have opened my eyes and gave me an entire new respect for the genre. I really have to thank my Grandfather for nagging me about trying to listen to more opera. He kept saying "Find an opera you like!" or "You're really missing out." If he hadn't done this, I probably wouldn't be here talking about it at all.

Quote from: Luke on January 26, 2011, 11:54:30 AM
I have the Kertesz and the Haitink and I wouldn't be without either - but the Haitink is the one I return to most often, for some reason. The opera itself is one of a very select bunch for me - I think it's one of the finest and most significant operas of the 20th century, and a fitting expressionist-symbolist sibling to Debussy impressionist-symbolist Pelleas: both in their unique worlds of dream logic and half light... For me, the exquisite scoring of the music for the lake of tears is perhaps the supreme highlight of the score. A long time ago it was my mystery score 89 on The World's Finest Thread (I'd reattach it if I could - click here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg94063.html#msg94063) if you want to see it). Here is music where the ultra-detailed orchestration is everything (because the musical material itself is slight). With just brief flickers of instrumental sound Bartok paints the most extraordinary picture of water and waves, but also of tears, of sorrow, of time passing. Incredible.

I like Haitink's very much, too. Recently I brought it to test it out on a friend's state-of-the-art sound system, which revealed that the recording--while very good--seems to have been made at some distance from the musicians. But never mind: if the recording itself didn't "wow" him as much as I'd hoped, he thought it was a very emotional account of the piece.

And I also love that "lake of tears" coloration--very, very imaginative.

--Bruce

Quote from: Luke on January 26, 2011, 11:57:51 AM
As far as I remember from my treasured Philharmonia score, the poem is printed directly over the first lines of the score. As I said, I want to check now!

I looked on IMSLP at the vocal score - there's the poem, in Hungarian and Russian, followed by 'ЗаНавес поднимается' and Hungarian equivalent - that's 'Curtain rises', I believe - and then the first line of the music. So it doesn't explicitly say that they should overlap - but it makes so much sense if they do!

MI - exactly - and you have there, in potted form, a condensed-as-possible list of most of my own touchstone 20th century operas (outside Berg's two and Janacek's best four or five, naturally  ;D ). That all three are utter fantasy/symbolic/dream/enchantment pieces is no coincidence, I think. It's why they belong together in my mind, anyway, I think, and why talking of them in the same paragraph as (by implication) Wozzeck or House of the Dead seems peculiar!

(IMSLP vocal score, for them as likes such things) (http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/c/c9/IMSLP62874-PMLP128319-Bartok-BluebeardVSrh.pdf)

Quote from: Luke on January 26, 2011, 12:10:25 PMMI - exactly - and you have there, in potted form, a condensed-as-possible list of most of my own touchstone 20th century operas (outside Berg's two and Janacek's best four or five, naturally  ;D ). That all three are utter fantasy/symbolic/dream/enchantment pieces is no coincidence, I think. It's why they belong together in my mind, anyway, I think, and why talking of them in the same paragraph as (by implication) Wozzeck or House of the Dead seems peculiar!

Yes, I wouldn't want to be without Berg and Janacek either! :D I just like the more psychological operas.

Nothing in music more psychologically probing than Berg or Janacek, though!

Quote from: Luke on January 26, 2011, 12:11:52 PM
(IMSLP vocal score, for them as likes such things) (http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/c/c9/IMSLP62874-PMLP128319-Bartok-BluebeardVSrh.pdf)

Thanks, Luke! (Doh, should have thought to look here myself.)

--Bruce

Quote from: Luke on January 26, 2011, 12:10:25 PM
I looked on IMSLP at the vocal score - there's the poem, in Hungarian and Russian, followed by 'ЗаНавес поднимается' and Hungarian equivalent - that's 'Curtain rises', I believe - and then the first line of the music. So it doesn't explicitly say that they should overlap - but it makes so much sense if they do!

Look again!  The last stanza of the prologue, including the "Regi var, regi mar" you mention above, is printed above bars 5-15 of the opening music, after 'Curtain rises' and the music begins. 

Ah, so it is! Thank you - so that's OK then, my preferred way is the right way.  ;D  I don't remember it doing that in the full score, though, which is what I have at home and what I haven't checked yet. Maybe it does...

I guess the thread is intended to focus on the work rather than recordings, but having listened to the work for the first time I have a few comments which would be most appropriate here.

This is the recording I listened to (Kertesz with Berry and Ludwig on Decca).

[asin]B00001IVQX[/asin]

To sum up, I would say I think it is a great piece, but I find the recording very unpleasant, and I will certainly be looking for another one.  I think Kertesz does a fine job with the orchestra, but I find Decca's "operatic" style of applying corny effects to the voices to highlight the staging to be extremely crude and distracting.  In particular the silly effect of making the voices move from side to side for no reason, or suddenly becoming very reverberant and distant, and the next moment very close up and in-your-face adds nothing but distraction.  This seems especially inappropriate since it seems clear that the opera should be regarded more in the nature of a dream than dramatic, live action.   Beside from that, Berry's diction sounds just absurd at various points.  That said, the orchestra does sound fantastic and the music is fantastic.  But a final annoyance is that the notes to the the recording put forth Kertesz' very misogynistic interpretation of the opera, which just contributed more to the negative impression.

In any case, I'm looking for an alternate recording but it seems all the ones that interest me, Haitink, Dorati, Boulez, are out of print.   Perhaps I'll go for the Gergiev on LSO live (SACD).

Quote from: Scarpia on January 29, 2011, 01:07:36 PM
I guess the thread is intended to focus on the work rather than recordings, but having listened to the work for the first time I have a few comments which would be most appropriate here.

This is the recording I listened to (Kertesz with Berry and Ludwig on Decca).



To sum up, I would say I think it is a great piece, but I find the recording very unpleasant, and I will certainly be looking for another one.  I think Kertesz does a fine job with the orchestra, but I find Decca's "operatic" style of applying corny effects to the voices to highlight the staging to be extremely crude and distracting.  In particular the silly effect of making the voices more from side to side for no reason, or suddenly becoming very reverberant and distant, and the next moment very close up and in-your-face adds nothing but distraction.  This seems especially inappropriate since it seems clear that the opera should be regarded more in the nature of a dream than dramatic, live action.   Beside from that, Berry's diction sounds just absurd at various points.  That said, the orchestra does sound fantastic and the music is fantastic.  But a final annoyance is that the notes to the the recording put forth Kertesz' very misogynistic interpretation of the opera, which just contributed more to the negative impression.

In any case, I'm looking for an alternate recording but it seems all the ones that interest me, Haitink, Dorati, Boulez, are out of print.   Perhaps I'll go for the Gergiev on LSO live (SACD).

Brilliant and insightful review. Although, perversely, you've made me even more eager to hear it.  ;D I love Decca's Strauss and Wagner recordings from this era. Was this another John Culshaw job? His contributions to the Solti recordings of Salome, Elektra and of course the Ring are amazing, and if he was involved in this recording, I'm sure that its pros outweigh its cons.

Quote from: MDL on January 29, 2011, 01:26:01 PM
Brilliant and insightful review. Although, perversely, you've made me even more eager to hear it.  ;D I love Decca's Strauss and Wagner recordings from this era. Was this another John Culshaw job? His contributions to the Solti recordings of Salome, Elektra and of course the Ring are amazing, and if he was involved in this recording, I'm sure that its pros outweigh its cons.

Thanks.  But no, not a Culshaw production, but it applies his ideas of the "theater of the mind," rather clumsily in this instance, I thought.   In any case, it is a highly regarded recording, but not to my taste.

Quote from: Scarpia on January 29, 2011, 01:07:36 PM
I guess the thread is intended to focus on the work rather than recordings, but having listened to the work for the first time I have a few comments which would be most appropriate here.

This is the recording I listened to (Kertesz with Berry and Ludwig on Decca).

[asin]B00001IVQX[/asin]

To sum up, I would say I think it is a great piece, but I find the recording very unpleasant, and I will certainly be looking for another one.  I think Kertesz does a fine job with the orchestra, but I find Decca's "operatic" style of applying corny effects to the voices to highlight the staging to be extremely crude and distracting.  In particular the silly effect of making the voices move from side to side for no reason, or suddenly becoming very reverberant and distant, and the next moment very close up and in-your-face adds nothing but distraction.  This seems especially inappropriate since it seems clear that the opera should be regarded more in the nature of a dream than dramatic, live action.   Beside from that, Berry's diction sounds just absurd at various points.  That said, the orchestra does sound fantastic and the music is fantastic.  But a final annoyance is that the notes to the the recording put forth Kertesz' very misogynistic interpretation of the opera, which just contributed more to the negative impression.

In any case, I'm looking for an alternate recording but it seems all the ones that interest me, Haitink, Dorati, Boulez, are out of print.   Perhaps I'll go for the Gergiev on LSO live (SACD).

This recording is regarded by many to be the definitive recording of this opera or at least to the many Bartok fans I've spoken with through the years. Taking your criticism into account, I think this recording deserves its high praise. There have been many more recordings of this opera made of course, but, for me, and for many others, the Kertesz remains the performance that all other performances are measured against. I think Bluebeard's Castle is one of the best sounding operas on record and what I mean by that is the opera works as well on disc as it does the stage.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 29, 2011, 06:17:27 PM
This recording is regarded by many to be the definitive recording of this opera or at least to the many Bartok fans I've spoken with through the years. Taking your criticism into account, I think this recording deserves its high praise. There have been many more recordings of this opera made of course, but, for me, and for many others, the Kertesz remains the performance that all other performances are measured against. I think Bluebeard's Castle is one of the best sounding operas on record and what I mean by that is the opera works as well on disc as it does the stage.

I will repeat my remark above, it is a highly regarded recording, but not to my taste.  My description of why I didn't enjoy it is mean't to allow people to decide for themselves whether they think they will like it, independent of my own preference (i.e., some people like the old Decca method of presenting opera in stereo recordings).

Quote from: Scarpia on January 29, 2011, 06:25:48 PM
I will repeat my remark above, it is a highly regarded recording, but not to my taste.  My description of why I didn't enjoy it is mean't to allow people to decide for themselves whether they think they will like it, independent of my own preference (i.e., some people like the old Decca method of presenting opera in stereo recordings).

The question is what is your taste? I've been trying to figure this out since I arrived on this forum last June. It seems all you ever do is complain about this recording or that recording instead of offering the reader, which obviously would be myself in this case, any idea of what you look for in a performance. Everybody has an opinion, but telling people what you enjoy instead of complaining about what you don't enjoy is more productive and helps promote conversation.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 29, 2011, 06:46:24 PM
The question is what is your taste? I've been trying to figure this out since I arrived on this forum last June. It seems all you ever do is complain about this recording or that recording instead of offering the reader, which would be me in this case obviously, any idea of what you look for in a performance. Everybody has an opinion, but telling people what you enjoy instead of complaining about what you don't enjoy is more productive and helps promote conversation.

In this case is should be pretty obvious that I would have enjoyed the performance if the recording of the voices had not been manipulated in a way that I found unnecessary and distracting. 

When I read reviews here or elsewhere I am less interested in statements that the recording is good or bad than in objective descriptions of the attributes that a recording has and why it pleased or failed to please.  When I post comments, I try to write reviews that meet these criteria.  And I feel I succeed to some extent, especially since someone above said my review was interesting and that it led him to conclude that he would probably enjoy the recording, despite the fact that I personally didn't.

Quote from: Scarpia on January 29, 2011, 06:53:28 PM
In this case is should be pretty obvious that I would have enjoyed the performance if the recording of the voices had not been manipulated in a way that I found unnecessary and distracting. 

When I read reviews here or elsewhere I am less interested in statements that the recording is good or bad than in objective descriptions of the attributes that a recording has and why it pleased or failed to please.  When I post comments, I try to write reviews that meet these criteria.  And I feel I succeed to some extent, especially since someone above said my review was interesting and that it led him to conclude that he would probably enjoy the recording, despite the fact that I personally didn't.

You're being quite vague, Scarpia. My comment to you is not about the specific recording you critiqued anymore but more about your approach in conversing with other people. It seems that you would rather tell somebody what you don't enjoy rather them telling them what you enjoy. I think the reality is you don't know what you truly like and that you just look for ways to complain because you're a bitter, angry person with nothing better to do.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 29, 2011, 07:18:06 PM
You're being quite vague, Scarpia. My comment to you is not about the specific recording you critiqued anymore but more about your approach in conversing with other people. It seems that you would rather tell somebody what you don't enjoy rather them telling them what you enjoy. I think the reality is you don't know what you truly like and that you just look for ways to complain because you're a bitter, angry person with nothing better to do.

Where'd this come from?  I don't see any call for personal attacks here. 

I love this recording, but I can sympathize with the problems that Scarpia has with it because I've had the same kind of experience with other "universally" praised recordings.  I've wanted to throw some Rostropovich recordings across the room because they put the cellist in your lap, with the orchestra waaay back in the mix (e.g. the Dutilleux/Lutoslawski and the Haydn with Marriner, both on EMI).

Quote from: Scarpia on January 29, 2011, 01:07:36 PM


In any case, I'm looking for an alternate recording but it seems all the ones that interest me, Haitink, Dorati, Boulez, are out of print.   Perhaps I'll go for the Gergiev on LSO live (SACD).

I'm pretty sure the Dorati is still available on Brilliant - I bought it not very long ago for 3 € or so. Very recommendable, though my memory does not suffice to give a description that would hit the nail on the head for you (I am away from home); let me only say that it is clear, unmanipulated sound, and that the singers sound really inside the roles and the language they are singing, though they might not have the same "star" quality as Ludwig and Berry.
P.S. I fail to see the logic of the aggressive mails directed at you; to me, what you write is always illuminating, but perhaps the assailant is narcissistically affronted when others fail to share his enthusiasms (thus the sobriquet Mirror Image?) - wrathful words were also flamed at me when I expressed my dislike of Mutter's  recording of the Berg concerto.

Quote from: mjwal on January 30, 2011, 08:02:31 AM
I'm pretty sure the Dorati is still available on Brilliant - I bought it not very long ago for 3 € or so. Very recommendable, though my memory does not suffice to give a description that would hit the nail on the head for you (I am away from home); let me only say that it is clear, unmanipulated sound, and that the singers sound really inside the roles and the language they are singing, though they might not have the same "star" quality as Ludwig and Berry.
P.S. I fail to see the logic of the aggressive mails directed at you; to me, what you write is always illuminating, but perhaps the assailant is narcissistically affronted when others fail to share his enthusiasms (thus the sobriquet Mirror Image?) - wrathful words were also flamed at me when I expressed my dislike of Mutter's  recording of the Berg concerto.

I did notice the Dorati Bluebeard on Brilliant, but I have most of Dorati's other Bartok recordings on Mercury and preferred it is its original CD release, which I managed to find used.  (It's a real shame that the Mercury catalog is mostly out of print now.)    Reviews of the Dorati tent to criticize the singers, but their familiarity with the language will be a big plus, I expect.  Berry sounds like he is speaking Klingon in that Kertesz recording.   :P  In any case, looks like I'll be deluged with Bluebeards, since Gergiev, Dorati and Fischer are now on order.   

About not liking Mutter's Berg, that is unfathomable.   ;D

This is a piece I am no kind of expert on and I am still very much getting to grips with it. I have Boulez on DG and echo Bruce's comments that Norman sounds more like she would victimise rather than be victim, but the sheer sounds she makes are terrific and often exciting. So, I don't know how authentic the performance is, but I have been getting a lot out of it.

Mike

Quote from: knight on January 30, 2011, 09:42:28 AM
This is a piece I am no kind of expert on and I am still very much getting to grips with it. I have Boulez on DG and echo Bruce's comments that Norman sounds more like she would victimise rather than be victim, but the sheer sounds she makes are terrific and often exciting. So, I don't know how authentic the performance is, but I have been getting a lot out of it.

That is the view Kertesz claims to have of the work, that Bluebeard is the victim and that the wives, including Judith, are sadistic.

Interesting, that does indicate I have got hold of the wrong end of the stick....I need to do a bit of reading; and listening.

Mike

Quote from: knight on January 30, 2011, 09:52:26 AM
Interesting, that does indicate I have got hold of the wrong end of the stick....I need to do a bit of reading; and listening.

I tend to think it is Kertesz who has the wrong end of the stick, or at least that there is something to both ends of the stick.  To put it at a very simplistic level, Bluebeard wants to be nice, but is drawn unwillingly into the same patterns of behavior by Judith's curiosity and insistence.

In both Bluebeard and The Wooden Prince, the woman has to learn a lesson and be punished.

Some other recordings I enjoy - probably 'HIP'  ;D:

Ferenksik 1956 – the great Hungarian tradition of Ferencsik and the Budapest Philharmonic, with the mytic Bluebeard of Szekely (for whom Bartok transcribed the part into a lower tessitura) and Klara Palankay - probably the greatest Judith on record.

Sebastian 1951 – Georges Sebastian had conducted the work in the presence of Bartok himself in 1942; and in this Budapest Radio broadcast we also have the chance of listening to the voices of Szekely and Palankay in their prime.

Susskind 1953 - the first studio recording of the work, made with the assistance of Peter Bartok (son of the composer); one of the few including the narrated Prologue and also with two other great interpreters of the roles – Endre Koreh and Judith Hellwig.


                                        (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41W8VHXQ4BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)   (http://soundfountain.org/rem/riassebas2.jpg)   (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51h%2B2-xpv3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Well, I have had a bit of a read and it seems that both creators had very ambivalent attitudes towards women. Bluebeard may well have been in fear. I will have to have a listen. It reminds me a bit of Lohengrin. The very dense essay with the disc makes reference to the Wagner.

On with the shimmering, moaning and shrieking.

Mike

Quote from: ccar on January 30, 2011, 10:21:39 AM
Some other recordings I enjoy - probably 'HIP'  ;D:

Ferencsik 1956 – the great Hungarian tradition of Ferenksik and the Budapest Philharmonic, with the mytic Bluebeard of Szekely (for whom Bartok transcribed the part into a lower tessitura) and Klara Palankay - probably the greatest Judith on record.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41W8VHXQ4BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) 

Palankay/Szekely/Frencsik recording can be sampled on youtube (in 7 parts)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_mjtWklo4E

Quote from: MDL on January 30, 2011, 10:03:38 AM
In both Bluebeard and The Wooden Prince, the woman has to learn a lesson and be punished.

Damn right she does! ;)

Quote from: knight on January 30, 2011, 09:42:28 AM
This is a piece I am no kind of expert on and I am still very much getting to grips with it. I have Boulez on DG and echo Bruce's comments that Norman sounds more like she would victimise rather than be victim, but the sheer sounds she makes are terrific and often exciting. So, I don't know how authentic the performance is, but I have been getting a lot out of it.

Mike

The Boulez/Norman/Polgar recording is quite good. Norman's voice is magnificent. Maybe not the most appealing Judith, but this doesn't matter, she's in complete control and Boulez's accompaniment is wonderful.

Quote from: knight on January 30, 2011, 09:42:28 AM
Norman sounds more like she would victimise rather than be victim....

The Gramophone review is amusing, contrasting the women in Boulez's two recordings:

"Troyanos was an earnest, even defiant Judith, whether shocking or shocked, seductive or petulant. Norman is regal, insistent, authoritarian; a formidable lady, not to be messed with. Witness her amazonian command at the beginning of track 3, at the point where she notes the seven doors and asks why they are bolted. Had I been Bluebeard, I would have thrown her the keys at the outset and run to the nearest town for cover."

For a second and third Bluebeard (already own Kertesz) I decided to buy Boulez's earlier version (Troyanos, Nimsgern) and Adam Fischer's.

Sarge

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 01, 2011, 04:00:03 AM
For a second and third Bluebeard (already own Kertesz) I decided to buy Boulez's earlier version (Troyanos, Nimsgern) and Adam Fischer's.

You won't regret it, it's terrific.

Quote from: Jezetha on February 01, 2011, 07:35:18 AM

You won't regret it, it's terrific.

Good to hear. The Gramophone reviewer (reviewers? there are several reviews) thinks highly of it too.

Sarge

This one arrived (it was cheap at MDT)

[asin]B002C8BQMO[/asin]

Not  bad, I like the singer who portrays Bluebeard a lot in this recording, and Judith is also well sung.  Perhaps the most satisfying version I have listened to so far, although ironically the sound of the orchestra in this multi-channel SACD is not as satisfying as Kertesz's mid-60's recording with the same orchestra.  I have one more Bluebeard to listen to, the Adam Fisher recording on Columbia (they are still selling it under the CBS masterworks logo, rather than Sony).

Quote from: Scarpia on February 10, 2011, 02:04:53 PM
This one arrived (it was cheap at MDT)

[asin]B002C8BQMO[/asin]

Not  bad, I like the singer who portrays Bluebeard a lot in this recording, and Judith is also well sung.  Perhaps the most satisfying version I have listened to so far, although ironically the sound of the orchestra in this multi-channel SACD is not as satisfying as Kertesz's mid-60's recording with the same orchestra.  I have one more Bluebeard to listen to, the Adam Fisher recording on Columbia (they are still selling it under the CBS masterworks logo, rather than Sony).

I was less impressed with this Bluebeard. I think it failed to reach the heights of Kertesz's (or even Eotvos' for that matter) recording and also the vocalists weren't in the same league as Berry or Ludwig. I also thought the audio quality was nowhere near as good as the other Bluebeard recordings I own.

MI (John), or anyone else?  I have recommendations for CD recordings.

Any recommendations for DVD recordings?  I am trying to start collecting opera on DVD.  Only have 2 so far.   :D

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 16, 2011, 06:39:22 PM
MI (John), or anyone else?  I have recommendations for CD recordings.

Any recommendations for DVD recordings?  I am trying to start collecting opera on DVD.  Only have 2 so far.   :D

I don't own any DVDs of Bluebeard's Castle, but I've read this one is quite good:

[asin]B002NY7YVY[/asin]

To my knowledge, only Adam Fischer and Solti have put out videos for this work.

Quote from: Mirror Image on August 16, 2011, 06:55:50 PM
I don't own any DVDs of Bluebeard's Castle, but I've read this one is quite good:

[asin]B002NY7YVY[/asin]

To my knowledge, only Adam Fischer and Solti have put out videos for this work.

Oooh, thanks John.  I love Kultur opera productions.  They are generally top notch!

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 16, 2011, 06:56:59 PM
Oooh, thanks John.  I love Kultur opera productions.  They are generally top notch!

I'll probably buy this at some point as well.

Since Bluebeard's Castle doesn't include but two characters, it's a really static opera. Most of the emotional or dramatic weight comes from the psychological aspect of the work, which occurs between Judith and Bluebeard. There isn't much action, which I think like Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande it doesn't make for that interesting of a stage production.

As far as I know there are only two DVDs of Bluebeard available; I've only seen the one below with Solti and the LPO, and like it very much. The singers - Kolos Kováts and Sylvia Sass - are excellent; the production is slightly on the campy side, with a sort of oddly Baroque feel. (I actually like it.) Kováts's costume, with its high collar, makes him look like some 1950s sci-fi ruler of Jupiter, and the contents of the seven doors are effective, but in a sort of "non-high-tech" way. (One friend said the sets reminded him of Star Trek.) That said, Solti was excellent in this score and it shows.

[asin]B0011WMWWU[/asin]

--Bruce

Wonderful, thanks for the recs, guys!

Quote from: Brewski on August 16, 2011, 07:07:37 PM
As far as I know there are only two DVDs of Bluebeard available; I've only seen the one below with Solti and the LPO, and like it very much. The singers - Kolos Kováts and Sylvia Sass - are excellent; the production is slightly on the campy side, with a sort of oddly Baroque feel. (I actually like it.) Kováts's costume, with its high collar, makes him look like some 1950s sci-fi ruler of Jupiter, and the contents of the seven doors are effective, but in a sort of "non-high-tech" way. (One friend said the sets reminded him of Star Trek.) That said, Solti was excellent in this score and it shows.

[asin]B0011WMWWU[/asin]

--Bruce

Got that on VHS God knows how long ago. Love it. Must get the DVD.

Heads up Bartokians!

Cross-posted from the 'New Releases' thread:

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 12, 2014, 04:17:55 PM
Loads of interesting recordings coming out in February and March, but this one has especially caught my eye:

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/signumsigcd372.jpg)

Coincidently, this recording comes out my birthday (March 10th). Pretty excited about this release because I've been hearing Salonen conducts a great Bluebeard.

Over a period of 30 years I heard just about everything Bartok wrote. Except Bluebeard, which I avoided. Not a big opera fan, opera in Magyar? early work. Until i bought the Rattle box and heard the except. I went to the store -- brick and mortar -- and paid list price, which I never do, for Kertesz. Wonderful, I love this score.

My gf won't listen to it, alas. Neither will she to Facing Goya, which I love even more.  :P

Quote from: Ken B on February 19, 2014, 06:38:49 PM
Over a period of 30 years I heard just about everything Bartok wrote. Except Bluebeard, which I avoided. Not a big opera fan, opera in Magyar? early work. Until i bought the Rattle box and heard the except. I went to the store -- brick and mortar -- and paid list price, which I never do, for Kertesz. Wonderful, I love this score.

My gf won't listen to it, alas. Neither will she to Facing Goya, which I love even more.  :P

For me, Bluebeard's Castle is easily one of the best operas ever composed.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 19, 2014, 06:57:49 PM
For me, Bluebeard's Castle is easily one of the best operas ever composed.

It's an astonishing score. What are good recordings? I have Kertesz as I said. I am listening to Dohnanyi and it sounds a little underpowered. The excerpts I heard of Alsop were way way too tame.

I can't buy anything for 3 weeks -- I have taken the CDCDCD pledge --but for future reference. Is Elder in English any good?

I mean on CD, not video.

I have Boulez, a marvelous shimmering soundscape, but I suspect that the version you have will be more visceral. Jessye Norman sounds wonderful, but from another opera.

Mike

Quote from: Ken B on February 22, 2014, 09:41:30 PM
It's an astonishing score. What are good recordings? I have Kertesz as I said. I am listening to Dohnanyi and it sounds a little underpowered. The excerpts I heard of Alsop were way way too tame.

I can't buy anything for 3 weeks -- I have taken the CDCDCD pledge --but for future reference. Is Elder in English any good?

Boulez/BBC SO on Columbia (Sony) is excellent. Ivan Fischer's on Channel Classics is also very good. Another one I enjoyed was Peter Eotvos' on Hanssler (I believe this recording is OOP now).

Another great Bluebeard is Haitink's on EMI, which has long been OOP:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/131/MI0001131943.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

I paid about $25 in used, like new condition a few years ago. Anne Sofie von Otter sounds gorgeous here.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 23, 2014, 07:26:06 AM
Another great Bluebeard is Haitink's on EMI, which has long been OOP:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/131/MI0001131943.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

I paid about $25 in used, like new condition a few years ago. Anne Sofie von Otter sounds gorgeous here.

Thanks for this and the others. I'll keep my eyes out.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 23, 2014, 06:36:53 AM
Ivan Fischer's on Channel Classics is also very good.

+1 for Fischer's recording, which I actually have on Philips, the label of origin. +1 also for Haitink's version. I know Bruce has always been a fan of this one, too.




[asin]B0000AKNJJ[/asin]

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 23, 2014, 08:06:11 AM
+1 for Fischer's recording, which I actually have on Philips, the label of origin.
[asin]B0000AKNJJ[/asin]

It's also available as a hi-rez download from Channel Classics:

http://www.channelclassics.com/dsd/fischer-90311.html

Time to resurrect this thread. Several posters here namely Bruce hadn't heard the Ludwig/Berry/Kertesz performance several years ago when I created this thread, I'm wondering if all the people who haven't heard this performance have heard it now?

Quote from: Mirror Image on September 22, 2014, 07:56:28 PM
Time to resurrect this thread. Several posters here namely Bruce hadn't heard the Ludwig/Berry/Kertesz performance several years ago when I created this thread, I'm wondering if all the people who haven't heard this performance have heard it now?

I have not yet heard that performance - not for any particular reason, other than being a bit busy with some new projects, and I haven't had much time to listen to many recordings of various things (or to be on GMG, for that matter). But I hope to, at some point, since the opera is one of my favorites, and you and others have spoken highly of it.

I did finally listen to the one in the Concertgebouw Anthology, 1990-2000, with Ildikó Komlósi and Kolos Kovács, conducted by Iván Fischer - it's terrific, if you are open to a live performance. Kovács (b. 1948, also appears as "Kováts") is the Bluebeard on the Solti DVD, and he still sounded marvelous in 1990, when this was recorded.

[asin]B0056WOZQM[/asin]

--Bruce

Quote from: Brewski on September 23, 2014, 08:02:45 AM
I have not yet heard that performance - not for any particular reason, other than being a bit busy with some new projects, and I haven't had much time to listen to many recordings of various things (or to be on GMG, for that matter). But I hope to, at some point, since the opera is one of my favorites, and you and others have spoken highly of it.

I did finally listen to the one in the Concertgebouw Anthology, 1990-2000, with Ildikó Komlósi and Kolos Kovács, conducted by Iván Fischer - it's terrific, if you are open to a live performance. Kovács (b. 1948, also appears as "Kováts") is the Bluebeard on the Solti DVD, and he still sounded marvelous in 1990, when this was recorded.

[asin]B0056WOZQM[/asin]

--Bruce

Thanks, Bruce. I've got that RCO Anthology set but haven't listened to that Bluebeard yet. Yes, definitely get around to Kertesz when you have time. You'll be most impressed by it I think.

Bruce is right, that is a beautiful, exciting performance!

We were a bit spoiled, though:  there was a thrilling concert performance of the opera at Symphony Hall led by Jimmy.

Quote from: karlhenning on September 24, 2014, 03:59:24 AM
Bruce is right, that is a beautiful, exciting performance!

We were a bit spoiled, though:  there was a thrilling concert performance of the opera at Symphony Hall led by Jimmy.

Definitely will check it out. BTW, Karl, have you heard the Ludwig/Berry/Kertesz recording?

Great topic. I'll hate if we lost the following discussion :

Quote from: Moonfish on November 03, 2014, 07:29:34 PM
Bartók

Saw this used in my local store today and considering today's Bartok recommendations I figured I should take it home with me!   8)

[asin] B00000E3YT[/asin]

Quote from: Ken B on November 03, 2014, 08:02:29 PM
I think Bluebeard is incredibly beautiful, but I wonder if it's a piscine friendly score. My girlfriend hates it. Curious to hear your reaction ...

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 03, 2014, 08:43:47 PM
Excellent, Moonfish! I don't own this Sawallisch performance surprisingly. Let me know what you think of the work. My favorite performance, of the recordings I own, is Ludwig/Berry/Kertesz on Decca. Outstanding performances all-around.

Quote from: Cosi bel do on November 04, 2014, 02:07:19 AM
Well, good, I'll be happy to read your impressions about the opera 8)
I don't own this version either, you've found kind of a rarity (but I've heard good things about it).

I can't say the same about Kertész. I mean, it's a nice, cozy, pleasant, comfy version, and superbly recorded. But there's more to Bluebeard's Castle than that.  I prefer Boulez with Troyanos and Nimsgern (CBS/Sony). And, above all, there's a 1981 performance with the same singers and the NYP conducted by Rafael Kubelik that sweeps any competition (the issue being if you listen to it a few times, you might have difficulties hearing any other version afterwards).

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 04, 2014, 06:36:15 AM
Well, you're certainly in the minority with Kertesz's Bluebeard. Every Bartokian I've spoken with either on Amazon, here, Talk Classical, wherever, rates this performance very highly and with good reason: it's eerily gorgeous. Every musical phrase is handled with absolute care and Ludwig/Berry are at the top of their game in every respect. I like the Boulez on Sony a lot as well. I probably own around 10 or 11 performances of this masterpiece on disc. The Eotvos on Hanssler is another good one IMHO.

So, yes, I'm well aware there's more to Bluebeard than one recording, but I still pick Kertesz above them all. :)

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 04, 2014, 05:35:41 PM
But there's one thing we can agree on and that's this opera is magnificent. 8)

Sure 8)

And discussion continuing elsewhere :

Quote from: Moonfish on November 04, 2014, 08:29:37 PM
Bartók: Bluebeard's Castle            Fischer-Dieskau/Varady/Bayerisches Staatsorchester/Sawallisch

Earlier today I decided to put on my neophyte swim trunks and jump into the Bartók Sea for a first listen to 'Bluebeard's Castle'. I did it without a libretto since I simply wanted to take in the soundscape without any storyline to ponder.  It was definitely an interesting experience. I cannot say that I disliked it but I do not exactly like it either.  It is so dark and full of despair and sorrow - the soundscape wraps around the anguish of the two souls in a way I never really experienced before. I was more perplexed and intrigued than anything else, but also quite attracted to the eerie sorrow that tended to be present within almost every passage.  I think I will dig up a version on YouTube so I can experience the staging and the storyline as well as the music.  I sense that Bartók is an acquired taste, but also worth a second chance. I suspect that the music will grow on me (since I am a sucker for sorrowful passages in music)!   :)


[asin] B00000E3YT[/asin]

I think the topic might have been better under the "Opera and Vocal" section though, maybe it could be changed...

About versions, I have said a few things about this one, unfortunately oop on CD... Do NOT miss it...

http://www.youtube.com/v/1mCiL8iyp_k

What do you think about Michael Powell's film version sung in German?
"The performers are Norman Foster as Bluebeard and Ana Raquel Satre as Judit, his fourth wife, accompanied by the Zagreb Symphony Orchestra conducted by Milan Horvath."  [Wikipedia]


http://www.youtube.com/v/FSFFR9lSVJc

I really like Birgit Nilsson as Judith!!! I came across this segment (Door 6):

http://www.youtube.com/v/x3EppVJzCwI

Bernhard Sönnerstedt, Bluebeard

Birgit Nilsson, Judith

Ferenc Fricsay, conductor
Swedish Radio Orchestra

Live broadcast, February 10, 1953.

Probably the same as:

[asin] B0007NFLYA[/asin]

or possibly

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/026/MI0001026676.jpg)

[asin] B00984PFHW[/asin]

Quote from: Cosi bel do on November 05, 2014, 01:27:30 AM
Great topic. I'll hate if we lost the following discussion :

Sure 8)

And discussion continuing elsewhere :
[/quote

Thanks for collecting.

DBC was the very last Bartok I ever heard, and only about a year ago. After 35 years of listening to Bartok and hearing almost everything he wrote. Meh, I always thought, who really needs an early opera, in Magyar no less. Live and learn!

Quote from: Moonfish on November 05, 2014, 03:55:53 AM
I really like Birgit Nilsson as Judith!!! I came across this segment (Door 6):

Yes, Nilsson is good, but it really doesn't work as well when sung in German. This music is really meant to be sung in Hungarian and a German version sounds as unnatural than in a Mozart/Da Ponte opera...
It's quite ironic that it should be Fricsay who conducted it in another language than his own, in this live and in the studio recording he also made. It's a shame, really, because I'd rate these 2 versions really higher, were they in Hungarian...

Same remark about the film version above. By the way, there could be a few more versions on video, because we only have this, and Solti and Adam Fischer's versions, both lip-synched movie versions and not staged productions, which is as usual a little unpleasant.

Quote from: Cosi bel do on November 05, 2014, 05:24:31 AM
Yes, Nilsson is good, but it really doesn't work as well when sung in German. This music is really meant to be sung in Hungarian and a German version sounds as unnatural than in a Mozart/Da Ponte opera...
It's quite ironic that it should be Fricsay who conducted it in another language than his own, in this live and in the studio recording he also made. It's a shame, really, because I'd rate these 2 versions really higher, were they in Hungarian...

Same remark about the film version above. By the way, there could be a few more versions on video, because we only have this, and Solti and Adam Fischer's versions, both lip-synched movie versions and not staged productions, which is as usual a little unpleasant.

Yes, the German threw me a little bit as well. It is fine, but I definitely prefer the Hungarian for some reason (that at first sounded like Finnish in my ears). The Hungarian adds wonderful tonal qualities and (obviously) a sense of alienation (which may not work as well if I actually knew Hungarian).

I am looking forward to watching the Solti version as I did like the imagery in the clips I watched. I wonder why there are so few versions available and why it has not been filmed in a true staged version? Has it really been that unpopular?

Well, I don't really know. I can only suppose that, the work being short, it might be more difficult to market it as a lone piece on DVD or BR. But I'm quite sure there will be commercial releases of recent productions in the future.

It's quite popular with opera houses in fact... This season only, there are 8 different productions planned according to operabase.
A new production (paired with Gianni Schicchi) will be staged by Bieito, in Berlin (Komische Oper) but if filmed I doubt it will be widely released as the cast is not very appealing (well, I might still try going there anyway).
Another new production will be in January at the Met, funnily enough paired with Tchaikovsky's Iolanta, and I have no hope about it as it will be led by Gergiev... I have no opinion on the staging by Mariusz Trelinsky. It is supposed to be performed at the Polish National Opera afterwards.
Robert Lepage stages in in Toronto (with Schoenberg's Erwartung, good idea) but I don't know the rest of the cast...
Actually the production in Montpellier (a reprise) might be more appealing than one could think at first, as it will be sung by Jukka Rasilainen and Angela Denoke...
The worst pairing must be in Los Angeles : Bluebeard's Castle, then take a breath, because it's Dido & Aeneas by Purcelle :D

Still, there is one production you might try to find, staged by La Fura dels Baus in Paris (2007). Not great musically, but very interesting staging (and better than nothing anyway). It ran several times on TV (at least in France, on Mezzo).

Quote from: Cosi bel do on November 05, 2014, 07:20:04 AM

Another new production will be in January at the Met, funnily enough paired with Tchaikovsky's Iolanta, and I have no hope about it as it will be led by Gergiev... I have no opinion on the staging by Mariusz Trelinsky. It is supposed to be performed at the Polish National Opera afterwards.

I came across this promotion for Gergiev's Met production/pairing:

http://www.youtube.com/v/FnBJl6kLFuY

Thanks to operadis (http://www.operadis-opera-discography.org.uk/CLBABLUE.HTM), I found the Dohnanyi video (concert version) on Youtube. I had forgotten about it, never saw it, I'll check it out.

But there's more. Looking up Bluebeard's Castle on (hem...) shady websites, I found another version I had never heard of. Another movie version, but an old Soviet one from 1963, in Russian (still not Hungarian then, but better than German). Rozhdestvensky conducting the Bolshoï orchestra, filmed (after his own staging ?) by Vitali Golovin in a very expressionist style. Apparently Nina Polyakova and Yevgeny Kibkalo are singing but I have no idea if they are also acting.
I just watched a few minutes, wow, I don't think I ever heard such a tense rendition.

Quote from: Cosi bel do on November 05, 2014, 07:51:39 AM
Thanks to operadis (http://www.operadis-opera-discography.org.uk/CLBABLUE.HTM), I found the Dohnanyi video (concert version) on Youtube. I had forgotten about it, never saw it, I'll check it out.

But there's more. Looking up Bluebeard's Castle on (hem...) shady websites, I found another version I had never heard of. Another movie version, but an old Soviet one from 1963, in Russian (still not Hungarian then, but better than German). Rozhdestvensky conducting the Bolshoï orchestra, filmed (after his own staging ?) by Vitali Golovin in a very expressionist style. Apparently Nina Polyakova and Yevgeny Kibkalo are singing but I have no idea if they are also acting.
I just watched a few minutes, wow, I don't think I ever heard such a tense rendition.

Great resource Cosi! Thank you! There are many more versions of BC than I expected and it is interesting to notice the variety of languages used. I would not be surprised if the difficulty of Hungarian is the issue. Perhaps one could expect the Hungarian singers to be the best bet for accomplishing Bartok's vision?   

Quote from: Moonfish on November 05, 2014, 07:58:25 AM
Great resource Cosi! Thank you! There are many more versions of BC than I expected and it is interesting to notice the variety of languages used. I would not be surprised if the difficulty of Hungarian is the issue. Perhaps one could expect the Hungarian singers to be the best bet for accomplishing Bartok's vision?

Well, yes and no. The Ferencsik 1956 version (Hungaroton) is among my favorites but Palankay (Judith) is its main weakness... Whereas Troyanos is always glorious, even if it's not her language...
Szekely is excellent though. He also sings on the (very good) Dorati recording, but he's better with Ferencsik.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TuK8kHrdL.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZbOXGa76L.jpg)

Quote from: Cosi bel do on November 05, 2014, 01:32:17 AM
I think the topic might have been better under the "Opera and Vocal" section though, maybe it could be changed...

About versions, I have said a few things about this one, unfortunately oop on CD... Do NOT miss it...

http://www.youtube.com/v/1mCiL8iyp_k

I very much enjoyed this version. You are right in regards to Troyano's voice which is hauntingly beautiful. It fits right into the Bartok soundscape. So Troyanos and Nimsgern recorded a version of BC with Boulez as well at about the same time? 

Exactly, and it's in the big Boulez box, or in this bargain set :

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71JNmpQHopL._SL1221_.jpg)

Quote from: Cosi bel do on November 05, 2014, 11:12:44 AM
Exactly, and it's in the big Boulez box, or in this bargain set :

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71JNmpQHopL._SL1221_.jpg)

I have to dig it out of the Boulez big box.....
I think I have the Dorati rendition of BC in the Mercury set as well as the one with Ildikó Komlósi and Kolos Kovács (Iván Fischer with the RCO).  Unexplored treasures!!!!

I also uploaded to Youtube the Rozhdestvensky video version. Haven't listened to all of it yet but what I heard and saw so far is very interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/v/b1CYE__dbVQ

Quote from: Cosi bel do on November 05, 2014, 01:32:17 AM
I think the topic might have been better under the "Opera and Vocal" section though, maybe it could be changed...

About versions, I have said a few things about this one, unfortunately oop on CD... Do NOT miss it...

http://www.youtube.com/v/1mCiL8iyp_k

Linking up....this is a new release, and apparently never released previously
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LNwTJS1zL.jpg)
Have yet to listen but there is one known negative already...it is sung auf Deutsch.
Performance date 15 August 1962.

Yep, Jeffrey, Bluebeard being sung in German is a deal-breaker for me as well. A complete mystery to me is the fact that these operas exist in other languages. I know, I know, people of other countries Hungarian may not be the best ( ;) ) BUT that's why libretto with translations exist.

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2014, 08:06:09 PM
A complete mystery to me is the fact that these operas exist in other languages.

Fun fact: Ligeti's Le Grand Macabre is possibly the only opera where the composer has encouraged the piece to be translated and sung in any language.

Quote from: lescamil on November 13, 2014, 08:58:19 PM
Fun fact: Ligeti's Le Grand Macabre is possibly the only opera where the composer has encouraged the piece to be translated and sung in any language.

Karl should compose and opera with me providing a libretto in gibberish, sung however you'd like in any language or no language.

Quote from: springrite on November 13, 2014, 09:03:25 PM
Karl should compose and opera with me providing a libretto in gibberish, sung however you'd like in any language or no language.

Yours is the greater challenge ... generating a libretto in gibberish!

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2014, 09:32:12 PM
Yours is the greater challenge ... generating a libretto in gibberish!

We could just use the "What should my avatar be?" threads here at GMG as the libretto?   >:D

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2014, 09:32:12 PM
Yours is the greater challenge ... generating a libretto in gibberish!

Easy solution...hire snyprrr to write it.

Sarge

Quote from: springrite on November 13, 2014, 09:03:25 PM
Karl should compose and opera with me providing a libretto in gibberish, sung however you'd like in any language or no language.

You should try Four Saints in Three Acts

:)

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 13, 2014, 06:08:00 AM
Linking up....this is a new release, and apparently never released previously
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LNwTJS1zL.jpg)
Have yet to listen but there is one known negative already...it is sung auf Deutsch.
Performance date 15 August 1962.

Just finished listening.
Sonics superb, and much better than most recordings of that era, studio or live (this was an unstaged concert performance).
Singing and conducting excellent, and if there were flubs I did not catch them.
9 out of 10, and that only because it is in German.  If it was in Hungarian it would be 10 out of 10 and the reference recording.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 14, 2014, 04:57:23 PM
Just finished listening.
Sonics superb, and much better than most recordings of that era, studio or live (this was an unstaged concert performance).
Singing and conducting excellent, and if there were flubs I did not catch them.
9 out of 10, and that only because it is in German.  If it was in Hungarian it would be 10 out of 10 and the reference recording.

Ah, I have to wonder why it wasn't sung in Hungarian? I'd definitely buy this recording if it was.

Because that is the common language in Lucerne...?
Most opera, especially in "exotic" (i.e. not Italian or French) languages was sung in German in German-speaking countries until a few decades ago. Only with international stars (and later also the ensembles of provincial operas becoming international) Italian, French and maybe sometimes also Russian, Czech and Hungarian became standard. I have been told that what is internationally sung in Janacek operas is still often not recognizable by native speakers, because those languages are just to difficult to pronounce. Or singers learn the sound with a coach but have no idea about their meanings.

Quote from: Jo498 on November 15, 2014, 06:41:20 AM
Because that is the common language in Lucerne...?
Most opera, especially in "exotic" (i.e. not Italian or French) languages was sung in German in German-speaking countries until a few decades ago. Only with international stars (and later also the ensembles of provincial operas becoming international) Italian, French and maybe sometimes also Russian, Czech and Hungarian became standard. I have been told that what is internationally sung in Janacek operas is still often not recognizable by native speakers, because those languages are just to difficult to pronounce. Or singers learn the sound with a coach but have no idea about their meanings.

But certainly you recognize that Bluebeard being sung in Hungarian gives the opera a different aesthetic as oppose to being sung in a language which the opera wasn't originally written in?

Sure. But in the case at hand we are not talking about a recording "produced for eternity", but a live document. Of course if follows the custom of the time.

Until 30-40 years ago apparently the common opinion was that it is more important that the audience should understand the sung text and follow the action than to preserve the subtleties that usually get lost in translation (especially singable translation). Of course, not in all operas the language may be so important. I am told that the peculiarities of Hungarian (and Czech in the case of Janacek) are really important for the MUSIC of Bartok and Janacek.
But still, it does not seem obvious to me (as is assumed nowadays often without even considering the arguments of both sides) that this overrules the factor that the aesthetic experience of the audience is obviously also very different depending on whether it understands what is sung or if it does not understand ANYTHING AT ALL, except the name "Judith" (as can be rather safely assumed for about 99% of German or English audiences).

Quote from: Jo498 on November 15, 2014, 07:58:23 AMUntil 30-40 years ago apparently the common opinion was that it is more important that the audience should understand the sung text and follow the action than to preserve the subtleties that usually get lost in translation (especially singable translation). Of course, not in all operas the language may be so important. I am told that the peculiarities of Hungarian (and Czech in the case of Janacek) are really important for the MUSIC of Bartok and Janacek.
But still, it does not seem obvious to me (as is assumed nowadays often without even considering the arguments of both sides) that this overrules the factor that the aesthetic experience of the audience is obviously also very different depending on whether it understands what is sung or if it does not understand ANYTHING AT ALL, except the name "Judith" (as can be rather safely assumed for about 99% of German or English audiences).

Of course, you live in das Land ohne Untertitel...

Quote from: Jo498 on November 15, 2014, 07:58:23 AM
Sure. But in the case at hand we are not talking about a recording "produced for eternity", but a live document. Of course if follows the custom of the time.

Until 30-40 years ago apparently the common opinion was that it is more important that the audience should understand the sung text and follow the action than to preserve the subtleties that usually get lost in translation (especially singable translation). Of course, not in all operas the language may be so important. I am told that the peculiarities of Hungarian (and Czech in the case of Janacek) are really important for the MUSIC of Bartok and Janacek.
But still, it does not seem obvious to me (as is assumed nowadays often without even considering the arguments of both sides) that this overrules the factor that the aesthetic experience of the audience is obviously also very different depending on whether it understands what is sung or if it does not understand ANYTHING AT ALL, except the name "Judith" (as can be rather safely assumed for about 99% of German or English audiences).

Not just the audience. DFD was the busiest singer in the world. Woukd they have got him, never mind her, if he had to spend weeks practicing Magyar he learnt phonetically?

Quote from: North Star on November 15, 2014, 08:22:59 AM
Of course, you live in das Land ohne Untertitel...

In the 60s? Yes for sure. But that doesn't really address Jo's point. Should a German audience in the 60s watch a Shakespeare play in English, even if the theatre were equipped with sur-titles? Not clear why.

Quote from: Ken B on November 15, 2014, 08:36:27 AM
Not just the audience. DFD was the busiest singer in the world. Woukd they have got him, never mind her, if he had to spend weeks practicing Magyar he learnt phonetically?

In the 60s? Yes for sure. But that doesn't really address Jo's point. Should a German audience in the 60s watch a Shakespeare play in English, even if the theatre were equipped with sur-titles? Not clear why.

Interesting that you should use DFD as an example as he actually did take the time to learn to sing it in Hungarian. The Sawallisch version below is sung in Hungarian!!!   8) 8) 8)  It seems like his wife (from Hungary) was a factor in the matter.
I think it is great, but I am a neophyte in regards to Bluebeard's Castle. Perhaps I was lucky stumbling across this Hungarian version?

[asin] B00000E3YT[/asin]

Singing opera in translation is not a question of aesthetic, it's still the same music and the same text resulting in the same meaning.

It's a musical question. Every language has its own different rhythm, cadence, frequency and pronunciation of vowels ... and composer setting words to music is very aware of that, it influences the way the music is written. When the text get substituted with text in different language, with different rhythms and cadence is bound to clash to some extent.

It was thought in one period (50s-60s) that local audience understanding the plots trumps musical awkwardness, but thankfully that's mostly everywhere gone out of practice. 

Quote from: Moonfish on November 15, 2014, 09:26:18 AM
Interesting that you should use DFD as an example as he actually did take the time to learn to sing it in Hungarian. The Sawallisch version below is sung in Hungarian!!!   8) 8) 8)  It seems like his wife (from Hungary) was a factor in the matter.
I think it is great, but I am a neophyte in regards to Bluebeard's Castle. Perhaps I was lucky stumbling across this Hungarian version?

[asin] B00000E3YT[/asin]

Not weighing in on the language issue (haven't heard any other than in Hungarian), but this Sawallisch is wonderful - one of my top 3 or 4 versions. (And I have not heard a number of those available.) Julia Varady makes a great Judith, Fischer-Dieskau is really creepy, and Sawallisch gets a glorious sound from the orchestra.

--Bruce

I just stumbled onto this thread after reading an old (2007) review of Bluebeard's castle by a critic (Peter Aczel, editor of a long defunct magazine called "The Audio Critic") whom I really like. As what he is talking about fits into the present topic so well, I will go ahead and paste his review in here:

Béla Bartók: Bluebeard's Castle (Opera in One Act, Libretto by Béla Balázs). Sung in Hungarian. Bluebeard: Gustáv Belácek, bass; Judith: Andrea Meláth, mezzo-soprano; Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, Marin Alsop, conductor. 8.660928 (recorded and released 2007).
Béla Bartók: The Wooden Prince (Complete Ballet). Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, Marin Alsop, conductor. 8.570534 (recorded 2007, released 2008).

In May 2007 Marin Alsop and the Bournemouth orchestra had a big early-Bartók recording session in Poole, England, committing to CD their version of the 1911 opera and the 1914–16 ballet. Whether it was a worthwhile effort is debatable, since both works have benefited from a number of much better modern recordings. (If I weren't Hungarian and something of a Bartók watcher, I wouldn't even bother to write about these CDs.) Alsop is too bland for Bartók; the music demands greater incisiveness, more of an edge, you could almost say more violence. Merely beautiful orchestral balances don't cut it. And that's not the only problem. For example, the spoken prologue is missing from "Bluebeard," which is a falsification because the music is supposed to start under the narrator's voice. As for the Slovak bass Belácek, he sings well enough, but his heavily accented Hungarian reminds me of the itinerant Slovak tinkers who used to peddle their wares in the courtyard of our Budapest apartment house when I was a child. They would call out "Wiring! Patching! Pot mending!" in bad Hungarian; we called them wire-Slovaks. This isn't just pedantic quibbling; the Magyar cadences are an intrinsic part of Bartók's vocal metrics. Ten seconds of listening to Mihály Székely, the greatest Bluebeard of all time (Mercury Living Presence, D101216, recorded 1962) will prove my point. (Never mind that there aren't too many Hungarian-speaking music critics in the U.S.) The mezzo Meláth at least sings in normal Hungarian. The ballet music of the Prince doesn't quite have the searing and unrelenting intensity of the opera, but there are many gorgeous passages, magnificently orchestrated. Alsop plays it kind of blah half the time; she goes on automatic pilot much too often. Compare, for example, the superb 1991 performance by Pierre Boulez with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra on DGG. The audio quality of both Naxos discs is good, with a credible soundstage and wide dynamic range, but that alone won't save the day.     

Quote from: Baklavaboy on November 18, 2014, 04:58:58 AM
I just stumbled onto this thread after reading an old (2007) review of Bluebeard's castle by a critic (Peter Aczel, editor of a long defunct magazine called "The Audio Critic") whom I really like. As what he is talking about fits into the present topic so well, I will go ahead and paste his review in here:

Béla Bartók: Bluebeard's Castle (Opera in One Act, Libretto by Béla Balázs). Sung in Hungarian. Bluebeard: Gustáv Belácek, bass; Judith: Andrea Meláth, mezzo-soprano; Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, Marin Alsop, conductor. 8.660928 (recorded and released 2007).
Béla Bartók: The Wooden Prince (Complete Ballet). Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, Marin Alsop, conductor. 8.570534 (recorded 2007, released 2008).

In May 2007 Marin Alsop and the Bournemouth orchestra had a big early-Bartók recording session in Poole, England, committing to CD their version of the 1911 opera and the 1914–16 ballet. Whether it was a worthwhile effort is debatable, since both works have benefited from a number of much better modern recordings. (If I weren't Hungarian and something of a Bartók watcher, I wouldn't even bother to write about these CDs.) Alsop is too bland for Bartók; the music demands greater incisiveness, more of an edge, you could almost say more violence. Merely beautiful orchestral balances don't cut it. And that's not the only problem. For example, the spoken prologue is missing from "Bluebeard," which is a falsification because the music is supposed to start under the narrator's voice. As for the Slovak bass Belácek, he sings well enough, but his heavily accented Hungarian reminds me of the itinerant Slovak tinkers who used to peddle their wares in the courtyard of our Budapest apartment house when I was a child. They would call out "Wiring! Patching! Pot mending!" in bad Hungarian; we called them wire-Slovaks. This isn't just pedantic quibbling; the Magyar cadences are an intrinsic part of Bartók's vocal metrics. Ten seconds of listening to Mihály Székely, the greatest Bluebeard of all time (Mercury Living Presence, D101216, recorded 1962) will prove my point. (Never mind that there aren't too many Hungarian-speaking music critics in the U.S.) The mezzo Meláth at least sings in normal Hungarian. The ballet music of the Prince doesn't quite have the searing and unrelenting intensity of the opera, but there are many gorgeous passages, magnificently orchestrated. Alsop plays it kind of blah half the time; she goes on automatic pilot much too often. Compare, for example, the superb 1991 performance by Pierre Boulez with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra on DGG. The audio quality of both Naxos discs is good, with a credible soundstage and wide dynamic range, but that alone won't save the day.   

Alsop's Bluebeard is dull dull dull.

No matter;  her career is assured.  Nice work, if you can get it.

Gentlemen!  If you please, her Bluebeard is not dull.  There are better recordings,  but Bartok Bela is well treated in that recording.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 18, 2014, 05:28:19 AM
Gentlemen!  If you please, her Bluebeard is not dull.  There are better recordings,  but Bartok Bela is well treated in that recording.

Rocked gently to sleep like a new-born babe, yes.

Quote from: Discobolus on November 05, 2014, 12:03:56 PM
I also uploaded to Youtube the Rozhdestvensky video version. Haven't listened to all of it yet but what I heard and saw so far is very interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/v/b1CYE__dbVQ

I don't know if any of you watched this. It's musically excellent, one of the best versions I heard despite bad sound quality. The only issue is with the Russian language, it's still quite annoying at moments (but less than with German).
The movie in itself is very good, with an Eisenstein touch (actors don't always "sing" and there are a few "silent" scenes, as if the singing was occurring in their minds). Some good ideas, and a very 60s soviet futuristic aesthetics that I really like.

Now I'd really like to listen to the recording on a better media. It was released on LP by Melodiya and distributed by Westminster (with one of their very classy covers...), but there's not much hope for a new release...

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTUwN1gxNjAw/z/nIoAAOxy8e9SUalX/$(KGrHqV,!qMFJEKG2Cr5BSU,lR2!ng~~60_57.JPG)

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2014, 01:19:47 PM
Now:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8W_y9ICNuPQ/USdEgVbNJFI/AAAAAAAAOrw/h1yLzhhiyr0/s1600/01.jpg)


An absolutely riveting performance of my favorite opera.

Is this performance in German or Hungarian?

Quote from: Moonfish on December 22, 2014, 01:26:23 PM
Is this performance in German or Hungarian?

AFAIK, it's in the original Hungarian...I must say I've been tempted by it (von Otter is a personal favourite of mine), but the new Salonen looks attractive as well... ;)

Quote from: Moonfish on December 22, 2014, 01:26:23 PM
Is this performance in German or Hungarian?

As Ritter points out, Hungarian. I only buy original language versions, although I might own a German one.

Quote from: ritter on December 22, 2014, 01:29:30 PM
AFAIK, it's in the original Hungarian...I must say I've been tempted by it (von Otter is a personal favourite of mine), but the new Salonen looks attractive as well... ;)

The Salonen was decent but nothing compared to my favorites: Kertesz, Boulez I, Eotvos, and this one with Haitink.

Quote from: ritter on December 22, 2014, 01:29:30 PM
AFAIK, it's in the original Hungarian...I must say I've been tempted by it (von Otter is a personal favourite of mine), but the new Salonen looks attractive as well... ;)

So many versions (which is interesting in itself) - perhaps Bluebeard is receiving more interest nowadays?  I gravitate back to the Sawallisch performance, but definitely need to listen to additional renditions. Salonen...hmmmm...  ::)
I now have the Kertesz recording which I HAVE to listen to.. SOON!

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2014, 01:33:46 PM
As Ritter points out, Hungarian. I only buy original language versions, although I might own a German one.

I heard a German version which sounded so odd after attuning to the magical Hungarian (which (not surprising since it is the same language group) sounded a bit like Finnish). Btw where is North Star?
The use of German was a bit jarring!

Quote from: Moonfish on December 22, 2014, 01:40:25 PM
I heard a German version which sounded so odd after attuning to the magical Hungarian (which (not surprising since it is the same language group) sounded a bit like Finnish). Btw where is North Star?
The use of German was a bit jarring!

Yeah, I'm not a fan of operas being performed in another language other than the one it was written in. Apart of the allure of Bluebeard's Castle is keeping the Hungarian intact and the vocalists doing their homework on being able to sing in the language. I'm sure it's difficult, but the best thing here is we don't know of the difficulty of singing in Hungarian, we can just kick back and immerse our ears into the soundscape.

North Star has made the pilgrimage back to his parents for the holidays which he'll remain until early January. He's still lurking around here, but his posting will be infrequent until he gets back home.

Edit: The reason I know so much about North Star is he's a friend of mine on Facebook.

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2014, 01:48:42 PM
Yeah, I'm not a fan of operas being performed in another language other than the one it was written in. Apart of the allure of Bluebeard's Castle is keeping the Hungarian intact and the vocalists doing their homework on being able to sing in the language. I'm sure it's difficult, but the best thing here is we don't know of the difficulty of singing in Hungarian, we can just kick back and immerse our ears into the soundscape.

North Star has made the pilgrimage back to his parents for the holidays which he'll remain until early January. He's still lurking around here, but his posting will be infrequent until he gets back home.

Edit: The reason I know so much about North Star is he's a friend of mine on Facebook.

Ah, I now remember his lamentations about not being able to listen to Suzuki's Bach Cantatas due to him returning to the family mansion.  :(

In regards to the Hungarian: it definitely serves more as an instrument as the audience generally does not recognize the language. At least we tend to pick up more words/phrases in Italian/German/French.  It is so interesting that that the idea of preserving the original language in operas is relatively new.

Quote from: Moonfish on December 22, 2014, 01:59:55 PM
Ah, I now remember his lamentations about not being able to listen to Suzuki's Bach Cantatas due to him returning to the family mansion.  :(

In regards to the Hungarian: it definitely serves more as an instrument as the audience generally does not recognize the language. At least we tend to pick up more words/phrases in Italian/German/French.  It is so interesting that that the idea of preserving the original language in operas is relatively new.

It's only a matter of time before you listen to the Kertesz and be completely engulfed in this masterpiece. I don't own the Sawallisch. I'd like to get it at some point. Is it Hungarian?

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2014, 02:03:18 PM
It's only a matter of time before you listen to the Kertesz and be completely engulfed in this masterpiece. I don't own the Sawallisch. I'd like to get it at some point. Is it Hungarian?

Yes. It seems like DFD's Hungarian wife (Julia Varady) coached him in the language. I found it fantastic, although I have a limited realm of comparisons at the moment. At least it was a happy first encounter with Bartok's opera. Serendipity!

[asin] B00000E3YT[/asin]

For the record, here are all the Bluebeard recordings I own:

(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/58/62/0724355616258_600.jpg) (http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/25/72/0635212037225_600.jpg)

(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/22/38/4010276013822_600.jpg) (http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/52/32/0002894343252_600.jpg)

(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/55/46/0002894784655_600.jpg) (http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/72/37/0002894663772_600.jpg)

(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/02/04/0002894470402_600.jpg) (http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/27/85/0822231118527_600.jpg)

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Quote from: Moonfish on December 22, 2014, 02:06:28 PM
Yes. It seems like DFD's Hungarian wife (Julia Varady) coached him in the language. I found it fantastic, although I have a limited realm of comparisons at the moment. At least it was a happy first encounter with Bartok's opera. Serendipity!

[asin] B00000E3YT[/asin]

Excellent! I hope I can find a used copy of this somewhere online. Definitely added to my Christmas wishlist.

I don't rate this opera too highly, as with much of Bartok's output, but will be revisiting it with the Kertesz recording a listen later today.

Could anyone give me a short explanation of what the heck is going on with the libretto? It feels a bit like the Orpheus and Eurydice myth where he mustn't look back at her, and I know what's going on here, but with the Bartok it's a woman who wants to look and I don't get it; thanks in advance.

Quote from: Sean on February 04, 2015, 11:38:45 PM
...Could anyone give me a short explanation of what the heck is going on with the libretto? It feels a bit like the Orpheus and Eurydice myth where he mustn't look back at her, and I know what's going on here, but with the Bartok it's a woman who wants to look and I don't get it; thanks in advance.

Read the original fairy tale by Charles Perreault. :)

Hi jochanaan, I heard the Kertesz through today and despite his genius the opera remains episodic and bombastic, as per the VC2 or Mandarin or such works. The mysteries of the libretto will have to wait I think...

Seeing Bluebeard tonight at the Met, on a double bill with Tchaikovsky's Iolanta, both conducted by Gergiev. (I have not heard his recording.) Don't know the Tchaikovsky at all. In Bluebeard, the singers are Nadja Michael and Mikhail Petrenko, and in Iolanta, Anna Netrebko.

Very much looking forward to both.

--Bruce

Tchaikovsky's last opera like most of his work is carefully written and scored but doesn't have his topmost memorable material, perhaps as the case with all his operas; it pursues again the theme of sexual transcendence, but instead of the girl being asleep this time she's blind. Wish I was in NYC too...

Quote from: Sean on February 07, 2015, 12:38:09 PM
Wish I was in NYC too...

For those of us not in NYC, it'll be transmitted to movie theatres "Live in HD" on Valentine's Day.

Piotr Beczała is the Vaudémont in the Met's Iolanta.

I thought I would revive this thread from the ashes...

I've acquired many recordings of Bluebeard's Castle over the years. Here are the ones I own:

- Zhidkova/White/Gergiev (LSO Live)
- Ludwig/Berry/Kertész (Decca)
- Otter/Tomlinson/Haitink (EMI)
- DeYoung/Relyea/Gardner (Chandos)
- Norman/Polgár/Boulez (DG)
- Troyanos/Nimsgern/Boulez (Sony)
- DeYoung/Tomlinson/Salonen (Signum Classics)
- Hellwigh/Koréh/Süsskind (Praga Digitals)
- Elias/Hines/Ormandy (Sony)
- Marton/Ramey/A. Fischer (Sony)
- Kasza/Melis/Ferencsik (Hungaroton)
- Szendrenyi/Struckmann/Inbal (Denon)
- Kallisch/Fried/Eötvös (Hänssler)
- Töpper/Fischer-Dieskau/Fricsay (DG)
- Varady/Fischer-Dieskau/Sawallisch (DG)
- Szönyi/Székely/Dorati (Mercury Living Presence)
- Kováts/Sass/Solti (Decca)
- Komlosi/Polgár/I. Fischer (Philips)
- Charbonnet/Tomlinson/Saraste (Warner Classics)

The ones in highlighted are my favorites and ones I couldn't live without.

I tried to enjoy BC several times, unsuccessfully. Then I saw an old George Solti performance on video--dated style, but great singers. Finally, it made sense! No doubt the best approach for opera in general, but maybe even better for this one. (BTW, I don't recommend watching the 2015 Opera National de Paris version).   

Quote from: Mookalafalas on January 28, 2021, 04:24:30 AM
I tried to enjoy BC several times, unsuccessfully. Then I saw an old George Solti performance on video--dated style, but great singers. Finally, it made sense! No doubt the best approach for opera in general, but maybe even better for this one. (BTW, I don't recommend watching the 2015 Opera National de Paris version).   

Glad that Solti version did the trick. I like it, quite a bit, but it's also a hoot. Solti and the LPS are excellent, as are Kolos Kovats and Sylvia Sass, but it's the production itself that gives the occasional chuckle. E.g., behind the "garden" door, the flowers look a bit fake, and in general, the contents behind each door kept reminding me of old 1950s sci-fi movies. But never mind, it all comes together to get the job done.

I have seen 3 productions live. Two were from the Met (the more recent is the better one, and shows up in regular rotation on the Met's streaming schedule, coupled with a one-act Tchaikovsky opera, Iolanta), and a decent, if haplessly produced version by the Hungarian State Opera, when the company came to NYC a few years ago. Some writers have commented that the opera works better in concert (i.e., unstaged) than many, which may be true.

--Bruce

Quote from: Mookalafalas on January 28, 2021, 04:24:30 AM
I tried to enjoy BC several times, unsuccessfully. Then I saw an old George Solti performance on video--dated style, but great singers. Finally, it made sense! No doubt the best approach for opera in general, but maybe even better for this one. (BTW, I don't recommend watching the 2015 Opera National de Paris version).   

I'm glad that Bluebeard's Castle has finally clicked with you. The work itself is steeped in symbolism and I think, although this is just my own interpretation of it, that Bluebeard is actually Bartók himself. He is showing the listener the trials and tribulations of what it means to live the life as an artist. Each door reveals a side of the artist. Of course, I could be far off the mark as this is just what I've gathered from the text. Anyway, not even worrying about the text, the music itself is without a doubt incredible in every way. I've read a mini-book (and I say 'mini-book' because it was only a section within a larger book) on Bluebeard and it really didn't tell me much. I think each listener will come away with their own interpretation and all the better if you do. I thought the Solti video performance was 'okay'. I thought it would've been a bit better if they could have made it more medieval and gothic. There were parts that looks futuristic and some of the effects were tacky beyond belief, but the performance itself is quite good. I've got a recording of it.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA1MzAwNS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MTgyMjEzMzZ9)

I used to have this version as an LP. The organ (fifth door) was thunderingly effective....Possibly the Russian soloists were a bit ... heavy....? I don't remember.
However, I discovered the work on DGG, in German,  with Fricsay/Fischer Dieskau and Hertha Töpper.
I definitely need a recent recording, in Hungarian, with a good sounding organ!

In Antwerp I saw it in a very discreet, yet very effective setting: light effects (from small lamps on the music stands to sophisticated spots) changed the concert hall into a castle. The soloists were Andrea Melath and Alexandru Agache .   

Quote from: pjme on January 28, 2021, 06:40:34 AM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA1MzAwNS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MTgyMjEzMzZ9)

I used to have this version as an LP. The organ (fifth door) was thunderingly effective....Possibly the Russian soloists were a bit ... heavy....? I don't remember.
However, I discovered the work on DGG, in German,  with Fricsay/Fischer Dieskau and Hertha Töpper.
I definitely need a recent recording, in Hungarian, with a good sounding organ!

In Antwerp I saw it in a very discreet, yet very effective setting: light effects (from small lamps on the music stands to sophisticated spots) changed the concert hall into a castle. The soloists were Andrea Melath and Alexandru Agache .

Any of the four highlighted in John's list above would probably fill the bill. (They are among my favorites, too.) Though that said, now I need to listen to all of them again, keeping the organ in mind!

That Antwerp production sounds quite interesting, and underlines the idea that you don't need much in the way of sets or props. At a NY Philharmonic concert a few years ago, led by Esa-Pekka Salonen with Michelle DeYoung and Gabor Bretz, the singers stood in front of the orchestra, with no other staging. There was a single, dramatic effect: When the fifth door opened, the hall's house lights came on, full blast, and after a minute or two were dimmed again. Great example of "less is more."

--Bruce

Quote from: pjme on January 28, 2021, 06:40:34 AM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA1MzAwNS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MTgyMjEzMzZ9)

I used to have this version as an LP. The organ (fifth door) was thunderingly effective....Possibly the Russian soloists were a bit ... heavy....? I don't remember.
However, I discovered the work on DGG, in German,  with Fricsay/Fischer Dieskau and Hertha Töpper.
I definitely need a recent recording, in Hungarian, with a good sounding organ!

In Antwerp I saw it in a very discreet, yet very effective setting: light effects (from small lamps on the music stands to sophisticated spots) changed the concert hall into a castle. The soloists were Andrea Melath and Alexandru Agache .

I would say for your first Hungarian-sung Bluebeard, Kertész on Decca should be your first. It's one of my favorites, but finding a copy of it will prove easier than the other three favorites I highlighted in the list I posted of the recordings I own.

Browsing YouTube, I found a number of the versions mentioned here, including the Solti film, the Kertész, Boulez/Troyanos, and what looks like the Met's old version with Jessye Norman, Samuel Ramey, and James Levine.

But this one below was new to me, and is a treasure. Directed by Sándor Silló in 2005, its black-and-white photography sets a magnificently eerie tone. (From a comment online: "Bergman-esque") Singing is excellent. My sole criticism is a bit of white noise, like an old record, perhaps due to high recording level during the transfer.

Bluebeard / Kékszakállú - István Kovács
Judith / Judit - Klára Kolonits
Bard / regös - Tamás Jordán

Conductor / vezényel - György Selmeczi
Director / Sándor Silló

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5r1soNdUpo

--Bruce

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 28, 2021, 06:23:50 AM
I'm glad that Bluebeard's Castle has finally clicked with you. The work itself is steeped in symbolism and I think, although this is just my own interpretation of it, that Bluebeard is actually Bartók himself. He is showing the listener the trials and tribulations of what it means to live the life as an artist. Each door reveals a side of the artist. Of course, I could be far off the mark as this is just what I've gathered from the text. Anyway, not even worrying about the text, the music itself is without a doubt incredible in every way. I've read a mini-book (and I say 'mini-book' because it was only a section within a larger book) on Bluebeard and it really didn't tell me much. I think each listener will come away with their own interpretation and all the better if you do. I thought the Solti video performance was 'okay'. I thought it would've been a bit better if they could have made it more medieval and gothic. There were parts that looks futuristic and some of the effects were tacky beyond belief, but the performance itself is quite good. I've got a recording of it.

  I love the female lead in the Solti--both as a singer and a performer. Brewski's comment that it occasionally looked "like a 50s Sci-fi film" is a good call, though. No doubt it seemed impressive when it first came out...
  The 2015 Paris version IS done like sci-fi--or at least, with huge flickering monitors all over. The female lead, far from being winning but inquisitive young bride seems like a character from Sartre's "No Exit". After just a few minutes I was thinking "Hurry up, Blue-Beard, kill her already..." ???

Quote from: Mookalafalas on January 29, 2021, 05:13:34 AM
  The 2015 Paris version IS done like sci-fi--or at least, with huge flickering monitors all over. The female lead, far from being winning but inquisitive young bride seems like a character from Sartre's "No Exit". After just a few minutes I was thinking "Hurry up, Blue-Beard, kill her already..." ???

Of course, now I'm really curious to see this, even though you advised otherwise. (Your last sentence made me laugh.  ;D )

--Bruce

Quote from: Mookalafalas on January 29, 2021, 05:13:34 AM
  I love the female lead in the Solti--both as a singer and a performer. Brewski's comment that it occasionally looked "like a 50s Sci-fi film" is a good call, though. No doubt it seemed impressive when it first came out...
  The 2015 Paris version IS done like sci-fi--or at least, with huge flickering monitors all over. The female lead, far from being winning but inquisitive young bride seems like a character from Sartre's "No Exit". After just a few minutes I was thinking "Hurry up, Blue-Beard, kill her already..." ???

:D

I'm actually one of those people who doesn't enjoy watching an opera and prefers listening at home to a recording. I find the experience more immersive and it's easier for me to follow the action (if I want to do this --- most of time I don't even follow the libretto).

Although I've been acquainted with this work for years, I seem to be on the verge of a deep dive, or perhaps already dove in today.  Fortunately, it's not that a deep a dive nor a particularly expensive one.

I've been familiar with the Solti and Fricsay. A few years ago I incidentally purchased a live Fricsay in a Birgit Nilsson box set.

So that's three, a number I doubled today with Boulez, Kertesz and, based on some reviews, Canellakis from 2025.

Quote from: KevinP on July 21, 2025, 11:17:38 PMAlthough I've been acquainted with this work for years, I seem to be on the verge of a deep dive, or perhaps already dove in today.  Fortunately, it's not that a deep a dive nor a particularly expensive one.

I've been familiar with the Solti and Fricsay. A few years ago I incidentally purchased a live Fricsay in a Birgit Nilsson box set.

So that's three, a number I doubled today with Boulez, Kertesz and, based on some reviews, Canellakis from 2025.

Kertesz is a must have!

Quote from: Tsaraslondon on July 22, 2025, 04:14:21 AMKertesz is a must have!

Totally agree!

I've only ever seen it once, about 20 years ago, semi staged with Rattle and Thomas Hampson or John Tomlinson I think. Could be wrong about the musicians, all I remember is that the barytone was a famous Wotan. It was an enjoyable evening out, I'd imagine this opera could work fine on CD because not much actually happens.

Quote from: KevinP on July 21, 2025, 11:17:38 PMAlthough I've been acquainted with this work for years, I seem to be on the verge of a deep dive, or perhaps already dove in today.  Fortunately, it's not that a deep a dive nor a particularly expensive one.

I've been familiar with the Solti and Fricsay. A few years ago I incidentally purchased a live Fricsay in a Birgit Nilsson box set.

So that's three, a number I doubled today with Boulez, Kertesz and, based on some reviews, Canellakis from 2025.

I don't see this one mentioned very often, but after Norman - this one is easily my favorite: Marton and Ramey

(https://i.discogs.com/wVXaXUVuOmSUwtFAKNl4WGcE0ln3iWBRnaaIf0itmfk/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:531/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTgyNTg2/MzMtMTQ1ODEzMjIy/Ny0yMjkzLmpwZWc.jpeg)

Quote from: hopefullytrusting on July 23, 2025, 03:36:20 AMI don't see this one mentioned very often, but after Norman - this one is easily my favorite: Marton and Ramey

(https://i.discogs.com/wVXaXUVuOmSUwtFAKNl4WGcE0ln3iWBRnaaIf0itmfk/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:531/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTgyNTg2/MzMtMTQ1ODEzMjIy/Ny0yMjkzLmpwZWc.jpeg)

Marton can hit that high C, I wouldn't have kept the disc otherwise, but I remember her voice having a metallic edge.  Time for another listen, and I also want to get to the new Canellakis recording. 

Quote from: Daverz on July 23, 2025, 03:21:28 PMMarton can hit that high C, I wouldn't have kept the disc otherwise, but I remember her voice having a metallic edge.  Time for another listen, and I also want to get to the new Canellakis recording. 

That is the exact reason I have kept the recording - she is perfectly piercing.

The Canellakis recording is excellent, at least when it comes to production values, but it feels ... too smooth for my tastes - I like my Bartok with jagged edges, but for 5 bucks or so (Presto download), well worth the price, in my opinion. :)

The Kertesz is emerging as my favourite of the ones I have.

The Fricsay has the best Bluebeard (Fischer-Dieskau). It's in German rather than Hungarian. But to be fair, the score was originally published with both (from what I can tell, this was the publisher's decision and Bartok signed off on it), so I won't poo-poo the recording on those grounds, but I still prefer the Hungarian.

The Boulez (and I should have mentioned it's the later one) is good. It's a case where it's one of my favourite singers (Norman) so I enjoy it on those grounds, but I don't think she's particularly suited for the role of Judith--too powerful and confident. The singers are also closely miked, whereas on the Kertesz, you can hear Judith's voice get closer in the first few moments when the character enters the castle--nice touch for a studio recording.

I need to spend more time with the Canellakis recording. I wasn't as blown away as other reviewers were, but it seemed to do everything a good recording should do.

I haven't heard a bad recording of this work, nor have I heard of any that really gets it wrong.

Need to spin the Solti (been many years) and the live Fricsay with Nilsson (one cursory listen a couple years ago).

Aaaaaand guess who just bought four more recordings?

After a little research, I found out that Fischer-Dieskau left us four complete recordings, so I had to get the other three. (The Haitink was already in my cart, and in retrospect, I probably should have saved it for later, but whatever.)

I am officially in an obsessive phase.

Quote from: Mandryka on July 23, 2025, 12:51:41 AMI've only ever seen it once, about 20 years ago, semi staged with Rattle and Thomas Hampson or John Tomlinson I think. Could be wrong about the musicians, all I remember is that the barytone was a famous Wotan. It was an enjoyable evening out, I'd imagine this opera could work fine on CD because not much actually happens.

Probably Tomlinson, since he appears in at least two recordings, one of them in Chandos' Opera in English series, the other a recording from the Proms conducted by Saraste (could that be the performance you were remembering?).

My own favorite is Kertesz, but I do have a soft spot for this one (sung in Hungarian)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71sENL9bjmL._AC_SX296_SY426_FMwebp_QL65_.jpg)

Quote from: JBS on July 27, 2025, 06:05:01 PMProbably Tomlinson, since he appears in at least two recordings, one of them in Chandos' Opera in English series, the other a recording from the Proms conducted by Saraste (could that be the performance you were remembering?).

My own favorite is Kertesz, but I do have a soft spot for this one (sung in Hungarian)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71sENL9bjmL._AC_SX296_SY426_FMwebp_QL65_.jpg)

Maybe - vague memory that it transferred to Birmingham and I saw it there.

Quote from: JBS on July 27, 2025, 06:05:01 PMProbably Tomlinson, since he appears in at least two recordings

... and Hampson never sang Wotan. According to his website, his Wagner roles are Gunter, Wolfram, Amfortas, and the Lohengrin Herald. It doesn't list Bluebeard among his roles, either.