I've been enjoying Ives' symphonies, overtures, and the Emerson concerto lately. What other composers' works might I enjoy?
Quote from: OzRadio on February 28, 2011, 05:27:08 PM
I've been enjoying Ives' symphonies, overtures, and the Emerson concerto lately. What other composers' works might I enjoy?
John Adams
Quote from: OzRadio on February 28, 2011, 05:27:08 PM
I've been enjoying Ives' symphonies, overtures, and the Emerson concerto lately. What other composers' works might I enjoy?
In terms of style, no other composer really sounded like Ives. But if you're looking for a composer with an American aesthetic, then the following composers might be right up your alley:
Copland, Barber, Adams, Bernstein, Roy Harris, Piston, Creston, Virgil Thomson, William Grant Still, William Schuman, Gershwin
Of course there are more, but these should keep you busy for awhile.
QuoteJohn Adams
Couldn't agree more!
John Foulds, the english Ives
Matthijs Vermeulen, the dutch Ives
Ljubica Maric, the yugoslavian Ives
;D
Ma dov'è il Ives italiano?
try this one
[asin]B000005IZ3[/asin]
Ruggles, Crawford Seeger
I think only Guido's come close to what else an Ives fan might also like.
Aesthetically, Ruggles is the closest pick so far.
Otherwise, you might find Ursula Mamlock interesting, too. Carter, of course, though he's quite precise and strict where Ives is neither. But some of that same "do lots of different things at once" sensibility.
Of the more straightforward Americans, I would think that Sessions would be a better choice than any of the others aside from Ruggles. Schuman's a fine composer, of course, as is Piston. And Thomson can do some pretty good things when he puts his mind to it. But Mr. I was born in France Varèse is very possibly more along the lines of what an Ives fan would favor.
I also like escher's idea of going outside the U.S. Henry Brant, especially some of the earlier ensemble extravaganza's like Kingdom Come and Machinations. And maybe some Zimmermann (Bernt Alois). His Requiem for a Young Poet, particularly. And Luc Ferrari's Société II (Et Si Le Piano Était Un Corps De Femme). Though, come to think of it, there's maybe quite a lot of other Zimmermann and Ferrari that you'd like. I'm just going by my own love of Ives and where it's led me.
And, to bring us back to the U.S., the one man who seems to have been silently banned from polite conversation (irony) online, John Cage. Who, if nothing else, carried on and expanded the Ivesian tradition of multiplicity, of opening up the world of music to the world of sound.
Finally, I'd like to thank OzRadio for mentioning the Ives' Emerson Concerto. I had no idea that that had been whipped into shape and recorded. That's going on as soon as I click the "Post" button. (I also picked up the Concord Symphony just now. That's an orchestration of the sonata by Henry Brant. I never even knew. And I call myself a fan. Pfffft.)
(http://www.humanitiesweb.org/images/h104/h104g.jpg)
Oh, Ives... ;D
John Adams's The Chairman Dances (Foxtrot for Orchestra)
http://www.youtube.com/v/7pRLyyFdDjg&feature=related
Charles Ives comes in various flavors!
If you want the non-hymn-folksong-collage Ives, I would think you would find the microtonal music of Ivan Wyschnegradsky and Ben Johnston and Easley Blackwoodof interest, since they went well beyond experimental etudes.
If you like the Ives of the Robert Browning Overture, you should find Karl Amadeus Hartmann
a kindred spirit.
But one of the best composers following the spirit of the collage-style of Ives was Carl Stalling!
http://www.awn.com/mag/issue2.1/articles/goldmark2.1.html (http://www.awn.com/mag/issue2.1/articles/goldmark2.1.html)
Not even in My Father Knew Charles Ives (which is his most Ivesian piece by a long way, and not just in a titular way)?
I was just chekcing the 'Who's Online' and I saw a guest looking at the Michael Finnissy thread here, so I clicked on it for old time's sake. Good fun - that was back in the days when I had time to write long posts!
Anyway, in some of his pieces there is something Ivesian in Finnissy - in the inner complexity and in the bringing together of layers of sonic types. I wouldn't be surprised, for instance, if someone who responded to the Three Places in New England found something to like in Finnissy's Red Earth, with its deep overlapping layers of Australian outback, heat haze, scorching sand, insect buzz, searing sun, mirage, didg drones, mystery clicks and thwacks and evocatively twangling harps...
Quote from: James on March 02, 2011, 06:21:21 PM
is Adams really a bold & pioneering spirit like Ives was ? Is it music with real 'balls'? Listening to his music, like the stuff just posted, I'd say hell no - it's pretty tame & dull in comparison.
It's funny to hear someone even talking about
any classical music having "real balls" ;D Stylistic or formal adventurousness maybe, but balls no. I love classical music and have listened to it for decades, but compared to a lot of the more aggressive rock music or blues or soul or funk I've heard, it's all pretty tame, restrained, cerebral--and some would say effeminate.
Quote from: Cato on March 02, 2011, 06:36:10 PM
But one of the best composers following the spirit of the collage-style of Ives was Carl Stalling!
http://www.awn.com/mag/issue2.1/articles/goldmark2.1.html (http://www.awn.com/mag/issue2.1/articles/goldmark2.1.html)
Quote from: James on March 03, 2011, 02:45:33 AM
You're equating Ives with cartoon music.
Fatal error. Try again, James.
Quote from: Luke on March 03, 2011, 04:04:32 AM
Not even in My Father Knew Charles Ives (which is his most Ivesian piece by a long way, and not just in a titular way)?
Do you know, I've liked the title so well, I have feared to listen to the actual piece, lest I be disappointed . . . .
Quote from: Apollon on March 03, 2011, 06:54:25 AM
Do you know, I've liked the title so well, I have feared to listen to the actual piece, lest I be disappointed . . . .
Hesitate no longer. Ives is obviously one of Adams's major influences and this homage is a fine piece...as is the electric violin concerto it's coupled with in the Nonesuch recording,
The Dharma at Big Sur.
Quote from: http://www.americancomposers.org/rel20070427.html"But for a few years and only a little distance to the north," writes Adams, "[My father and Charles Ives] might well have met...I imagine them exchanging a wry comment in front of the town post office, or, rake in hand, lending each other some help after the first October frost." Adams describes My Father Knew Charles Ives, composed in 2003, as "a musical autobiography, an homage and encomium to a composer whose influence on me has been huge." In it, Adams paints a vivid musical picture of his personal roots as a native of rural New England, as well as his poetic roots as a son of the same quintessentially American soul as Charles Ives.
The Dharma at Big Sur is a much better work. My Father Knew Charles Ives is a rather aple immitation of the real thing - atmospheric like Ives but without the life... The vernacular elements are all phoney - both literally (they're not real folk/band tunes) and musically. And the whole thing is flatter than Ives' "furious silence"...
I do like Adams (maybe a quarter of the oeuvre is superb, half good, and a quarter is junky) and the piece is not bad, I just don't think it's that good either. Maybe I'm just hurt that Adams takes any oportunity to comment negatively on Ives' musical structures, which he says are weak and inneffectual. Obviously I disagree. Strongly.
Quote from: Guido. on March 03, 2011, 08:02:47 AM
. . . I do like Adams (maybe a quarter of the oeuvre is superb . . . .
Say, Guido, what three Adams pieces would you rank as crème de la crème? TIA
Quote from: Guido. on March 03, 2011, 08:02:47 AMI do like Adams (maybe a quarter of the oeuvre is superb, half good, and a quarter is junky) and the piece is not bad, I just don't think it's that good either. Maybe I'm just hurt that Adams takes any oportunity to comment negatively on Ives' musical structures, which he says are weak and inneffectual. Obviously I disagree. Strongly.
Why would you be hurt that Adams said those things about Ives' music? It's just an opinion. I disagree with Adams, who has composed a lot of s*** compared to Ives, but you can't fault somebody for their opinion. I enjoy both composers music regardless of what they both thought of other composers.
Quote from: Apollon on March 01, 2011, 02:45:29 AM
Ma dov'è il Ives italiano?
Scelsi?
Quote from: Grazioso on March 03, 2011, 04:49:43 AM
It's funny to hear someone even talking about any classical music having "real balls" ;D Stylistic or formal adventurousness maybe, but balls no. I love classical music and have listened to it for decades, but compared to a lot of the more aggressive rock music or blues or soul or funk I've heard, it's all pretty tame, restrained, cerebral--and some would say effeminate.
cerebral it's ok, and if you say that a lot of classical music have not "groove" i'm with you (though there are exceptions). But tame, restrained, effeminate... i mean, there are stooges, new york dolls, slayer, swans, monoshock, feedtime and whoever you want but if you think that any of these pieces (few examples of the thousand possibles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLq8h66oGt0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLq8h66oGt0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq1-_UPwYSM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq1-_UPwYSM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLR21wbcSnU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLR21wbcSnU)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWtHGk9ameg&feature=fvst (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWtHGk9ameg&feature=fvst)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvELcETEtQg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvELcETEtQg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6soFlEZAMYw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6soFlEZAMYw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS0x3u6pH3w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS0x3u6pH3w)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpH8H-ZuI0g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpH8H-ZuI0g)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMvOLepoBO8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMvOLepoBO8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWm7GHRvKdo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWm7GHRvKdo&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3gWZE-AZ5s&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3gWZE-AZ5s&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix_WD3GixBo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix_WD3GixBo&feature=related)
are tame, restrained or effeminate, well, i don't know what rock music you know
Quote from: escher on March 03, 2011, 11:34:40 AM
cerebral it's ok, and if you say that a lot of classical music have not "groove" i'm with you (though there are exceptions). But tame, restrained, effeminate... i mean, there are stooges, new york dolls, slayer, swans, monoshock, feedtime and whoever you want but if you think that any of these pieces (few examples of the thousand possibles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLq8h66oGt0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLq8h66oGt0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq1-_UPwYSM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq1-_UPwYSM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLR21wbcSnU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLR21wbcSnU)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWtHGk9ameg&feature=fvst (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWtHGk9ameg&feature=fvst)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvELcETEtQg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvELcETEtQg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6soFlEZAMYw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6soFlEZAMYw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS0x3u6pH3w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS0x3u6pH3w)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpH8H-ZuI0g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpH8H-ZuI0g)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMvOLepoBO8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMvOLepoBO8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWm7GHRvKdo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWm7GHRvKdo&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3gWZE-AZ5s&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3gWZE-AZ5s&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix_WD3GixBo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix_WD3GixBo&feature=related)
are tame, restrained or effeminate, well, i don't know what rock music you know
I don't personally think it's either effeminate or feminine (in the broad, symbolic sense applied to art), though in some quarters it carries the stigma of the former.
I've heard lots of classical music that is loud, fast, atonal, and/or marked by machine-like ostinati, including many of the pieces/composers you reference. I still believe that classical music on the whole is essentially rarefied and restrained, more a music of the heart and head than emanating from or arousing our "base" (think lower Chakras in Eastern philosophy) emotions. I've still yet to hear any classical music that evokes or elicits, for instance, the same exact sort of martial, frenetic aggression you can hear in, say, Slayer, to use one of your examples.
http://www.youtube.com/v/G0AGUywHntw
I'd also recommend some of the music of Henry Cowell, who actually edited some of Ives music. There are two great Cowell chamber discs on Naxos which I'd recommend. Some of the works are atonal & have tone clusters (like Ives), while others have a Neo-Classical feel and are not so much like Ives. BTW, Cowell influenced Bartok, the Hungarian actually wrote to him asking permission to use "Cowell's" tone clusters in his own music (& of course, Cowell was happy to give "permission"). Maybe Bartok didn't know about Ives & his earlier use of such techniques. Anyway, I digress. Cowell's The Banshee & Irish Suite are on those discs above, and they definitely give a sense of the experimentation of Ives, imo...
Quote from: James on March 03, 2011, 02:45:33 AM
You're equating Ives with cartoon music. Dear me, he's rolling in his grave. The impetuous behind all your recommendations is doubtful too. I'd say great American musical pioneers like Conlon Nancarrow & Elliott Carter are closer to the spirit of what Ives was about, and both are undeniably & uniquely American.
Dear me, I am not equating
Ives with any such thing! Please read carefully the following quote:
"But one of the best composers
following the spirit of the collage-style of Ives was Carl Stalling!"
And I am not sure what you mean by "impetuous," an adjective meaning "rash."
Charles Ives used quarter-tone tuning not only for the famous piano pieces, but also in his
Fourth Symphony. We know he experimented with and meditated quite a bit on microtonal music:
http://www.newmusicbox.org/article.nmbx?id=4461 (http://www.newmusicbox.org/article.nmbx?id=4461)
Lou Harrison would be another composer linked to
Ives via these ideas.
Quote from: James on March 03, 2011, 05:17:36 PM
Reading that ... you obviously have a VERY narrow understanding of what the phrase can mean. All your posts that follow in this thread show us in spades. Empty vessels making lots of loud primitive noise isn't "balls" ... and art music is a wide wide breadth of music, we're not referring to the 'soft pleasurable easy' stereotypes.
If by "art music," you're incorporating genres beyond classical, then sure, it has tremendous breadth. I'm fully aware that there's breadth within classical music, too, though by and large it tends, to my ears, to be things I described it as. And to be fair, I think anyone who knows the overall course of classical music would have to say that the pieces referred to by Escher are if anything the exceptions that prove the rule.
As for "ballsy" or "having real balls," the former, in the sense of "daring," applies well to Ives and many other classical composers who turned received ideas on their heads. The latter, in the sense of "macho" or "tough and aggressive/assertive," not so much. There we move into the realm of those things that are instigated by, elicit, satisfy, or allow ready sublimation of male aggression, dominance-seeking, and/or sexual desire. I really don't see Mozart or Ives or Bartok whipping guys into a violent frenzy. Classical music has little, if anything, to do with fucking and fighting.
Quote from: James on March 03, 2011, 05:05:12 PM
sorry it's still just a flimsy & very ill thought connection/recommendation.
:o ::) :o ::) :o ::) :o ::) :o ::) :o ::) :o ::) :o ::) :o ::)
Quote from: Grazioso on March 04, 2011, 04:35:35 AM
The latter, in the sense of "macho" or "tough and aggressive/assertive," not so much. There we move into the realm of those things that are instigated by, elicit, satisfy, or allow ready sublimation of male aggression, dominance-seeking, and/or sexual desire. I really don't see Mozart or Ives or Bartok whipping guys into a violent frenzy. Classical music has little, if anything, to do with fucking and fighting.
under this aspect, it does make sense to me. Classical music is not the most physical music, that's true.
Quote from: James on March 03, 2011, 05:05:12 PM
sorry it's still just a flimsy & very ill thought connection/recommendation.
For those who disagree with the above, and for those who agree:
Quote
John Zorn, the avant garde composer-musician, noted in an interview with Philip Brophy that appeared in the Cartoon Music Book that Stalling was not the first composer to undertake composition in this manner. "Although he used elements and melodies from Scott, it's not unlike the way Charles Ives used American folk themes. Stalling's sense of time, his sense of narrative, completely revolutionized the idea of musical development. This was before the post-modern experiments. He created something completely new."
See:
http://www.answers.com/topic/carl-stalling (http://www.answers.com/topic/carl-stalling)
Cato, I don't get it. I mean, if James — James, I mean to say — pronounces something flimsy, or someone clueless . . . it cannot be argued with! It must be so! After all, he's the only one here who uses his ears right. I read him claim so himself.
ROFL
Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 08:44:40 AM
Sad. Does anyone around here have a thought of their own? Or is it all just cross-referenced tidbit shit they've read elsewhere? Despite what you read elsewhere, I still think recommending loony tunes cartoon music or even putting it into the same vector at all with what Ives was about is way off the mark.
Why, yes I do have a thought of my own, at least now and then! 0:)
I,
Cato, immediately thought of
Stalling as a descendant of
Ives. Only today did I find that John Zorn (there are others as well) happens to agree with me about
Stalling being connected ideationally to
Ives.
At no time have I ever written that Loony Tunes music is on "the same vector" as
Ives.
Please recall the purpose of the topic: I recommended
Carl Stalling to someone looking for enjoyment via the catalyst of
Ives.
And heavens be praised, I am having another thought of my own right now, and it is about YOU,
James! 0:)
Quote from: Cato on March 04, 2011, 09:10:56 AM
And heavens be praised, I am having another thought of my own right now, and it is about YOU, James! 0:)
That may be an original thought, Cato, but I suspect it's neither unique nor new!
You do teach junior high aged kids, don't you?
Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 08:44:40 AM
Sad. Does anyone around here have a thought of their own? Or is it all just cross-referenced tidbit shit they've read elsewhere? Despite what you read elsewhere, I still think recommending loony tunes cartoon music or even putting it into the same vector at all with what Ives was about is way off the mark.
(http://demotivate.me/mediafiles/full/4162010103910AM_doublefacepalm.jpg)
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on March 04, 2011, 09:22:03 AM
That may be an original thought, Cato, but I suspect it's neither unique nor new!
You do teach junior high aged kids, don't you?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Oh yes! So the context at least is new! 8)
Love that "Next Generation" poster too!
(* Makes a note confirming his already-established tendency never to cross-reference any tidbit shit that James writes *)
Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 10:27:27 AM
Zorn pffff ...
Warning: never reference experts, like actual professional composer-musicians, because James will always know more.
***
And just because this thread needs a little more Slayer:
(http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/365438/god-listens-to-slayer.jpg)
Oh no, it's the Pink Carp!
Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 11:09:00 AM
and have you actually listened to that looney tunes soundtrack stuff first before reading 'stuff' about it .. ?!?! there isn't much there ..
;D ;D :D :D ;D :D ;D :( ??? ::) :-[ :-X :-\ :'( :-* :) >:D
Why yes, I actually
have listened to that "stuff," and did so probably well before you were born! In the 40's and 50's it was in fact what introduced me to Classical Music: yes,
Carl Stalling was a bridge for me into..
.Ives!!! And
Wagner, and
Mendelssohn and other composers he wove into his scores...not unlike
Ives quoting hymn tunes! :o
"Now it is COMPLETE!" $:)
Quote from: Grazioso on March 04, 2011, 09:23:06 AM
(http://demotivate.me/mediafiles/full/4162010103910AM_doublefacepalm.jpg)
Love it!
May I quote you? ;)
Check it out: if you play both these YouTube clips at the same time, you get Ives's 2nd symphony :)
http://www.youtube.com/v/fhHb-62BfpI
http://www.youtube.com/v/noYptXPHiAE
And speaking of cartoons and Camptown Races, that of course brings us to
NSFW!
http://www.youtube.com/v/0H2W1lK7P-I
Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 04:40:01 PM
this fuckin' garbage .. , young adolescent kiddie fodder
Heavy metal: proudly upsetting uptight people since 1984 ;D
http://www.youtube.com/v/WT1LXhgXPWs
Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 05:20:49 PM
... all of which is a lot of noise and typically empty.
"If the reader were so rash as to purchase any of Bela Bartok's compositions, he would find that they each and all consist of unmeaning bunches of notes, apparently representing the composer promenading the keyboard in his boots. Some can be played better with the elbows, others with the flat of the hand. None require fingers to perform or ears to listen too." --Frederick Corder
Quote from: Apollon on March 03, 2011, 08:06:44 AM
Say, Guido, what three Adams pieces would you rank as crème de la crème? TIA
Hmm, well I think earlier is better in general, though recently there seems to be a resurgence in quality after the relative dearth of good scores from the 90s... Narrowing it down to 3 is too hard and will inevitably just be a rather personal choice - I'll go for Harmonielehre, Shaker Loops and a very personal third choice, Road Movies, a rare chamber work from this orchestral composer; but Harmonium, Phrygian Gates, The Dharma at Big Sur, The Chairmen Dances, and many of the operas would be equally fine!
Quote from: James on March 05, 2011, 04:14:47 AM
another meaningless googled turd ... coming from a slayer & twisted sister fan ..
If Google isn't acceptable, where do you get
your turds? ;D
You missed the point: music styles come and go, but willful ignorance remains constant. Calling music "empty" or "noisy" is the lazy route taken by "critics" who either lack musical ability and genuinely can't tell the difference, or who actively refuse to take the time to study and understand.
Back to our regularly scheduled programming:
To answer the OP, Gloria Coates's 14th symphony might fit the bill: old New England hymn tunes laid over a bed of microtonal dissonance, with some polyrythms thrown in for good measure.
http://www.youtube.com/v/wQH17p-zGv8
Quote from: James on March 05, 2011, 05:50:10 AM
Hot air. You can't tell the difference between Ives, Bartók etc and the utter low level kiddie poop you have been posting, that's clear.
Quote from: James on March 05, 2011, 05:43:27 AM
Ives was a real stern individual you know .. suggesting that trash won't cut it Grazioso.
Now, now. You're in such a hurry to be angry and right that you're jumping to all kinds of silly conclusions. You assume that I in some way conflate Ives, Bartok, and heavy metal. Further, you assume I actually like Slayer et al.
You also rush in to call a respected composer's work "trash" and imply she's not individualistic. That's not very charitable. A little background info: http://www.sai-national.org/home/ComposersBureau/CoatesGloria/tabid/287/Default.aspx
C'mon, everybody! You know he must be putting us on!Quote... you obviously have a VERY narrow understanding of what the phrase can mean.
Quote from: Grazioso on March 03, 2011, 12:19:24 PM
I've heard lots of classical music that is loud, fast, atonal, and/or marked by machine-like ostinati, including many of the pieces/composers you reference. I still believe that classical music on the whole is essentially rarefied and restrained, more a music of the heart and head than emanating from or arousing our "base" (think lower Chakras in Eastern philosophy) emotions. I've still yet to hear any classical music that evokes or elicits, for instance, the same exact sort of martial, frenetic aggression you can hear in, say, Slayer, to use one of your examples.
http://www.youtube.com/v/G0AGUywHntw
http://www.youtube.com/v/oQ8kcRi4upA
Done.
Though if I want that type of stuff, there is nothing quite like the sound of the 8 string electric guitar:
http://www.youtube.com/v/6J4Ye7nRT0s
Ahhh...
music.... :)
Quote from: Greg on March 05, 2011, 05:17:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/oQ8kcRi4upA
Done.
(http://www.salon.com/entertainment/movies/film_salon/2010/06/25/psycho_shower_scene_anniversary/md_horiz.jpg)
Interesting. I've heard some Xenakis before, but not that piece. It doesn't really speak to the sort of thing I was trying to describe, but it does remind me of the
Psycho soundtrack at the beginning, more indirectly of Peter Brötzmann's infamous free jazz aural assault
Machine Gun:
http://www.youtube.com/v/HWiO5SFoh8g
Crank it up and the neighbors will think Satan and his minions are partying by your pool ;D
I think to really be helpful on this thread we need to know what it is you like about Ives. The experimentation? The Modernism? The polystylism? The quotation? The nostalgia and beauty? The gawky humour?
If all of the above, then fairly predictably one would have to say that no one is quite like Ives. But if you want to focus on one or two aspects that you like, then recommendations would be much easier to make.
Quote from: Greg on March 05, 2011, 05:52:50 PM
Though if I want that type of stuff, there is nothing quite like the sound of the 8 string electric guitar:
http://www.youtube.com/v/6J4Ye7nRT0s
Ahhh...
music.... :)
The technical death metal equivalent of Rimsky-Korsakov's forays into Eastern exoticism:
http://www.youtube.com/v/WKqTn2A9ZH4
I'm always left exhausted after listening to that one...
Quote from: Guido. on March 05, 2011, 06:18:34 PM
I think to really be helpful on this thread we need to know what it is you like about Ives. The experimentation? The Modernism? The polystylism? The quotation? The nostalgia and beauty? The gawky humour?
If all of the above, then fairly predictably one would have to say that no one is quite like Ives. But if you want to focus on one or two aspects that you like, then recommendations would be much easier to make.
Some of those elements make me think of Schnittke, actually.
Quote from: James on March 06, 2011, 04:21:17 AM
Physically ill from sampling all of this total garbage ... and why is it being posted even?
(http://www.sharpdimensions.com/photos/Zane_barf.jpg)
Quote
and Grazioso, further reading your comments illustrate to me just how clueless you are. trivial young adolescent logic ..
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Quote from: Grazioso on March 05, 2011, 06:04:43 PM
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Interesting. I've heard some Xenakis before, but not that piece. It doesn't really speak to the sort of thing I was trying to describe, but it does remind me of the Psycho soundtrack at the beginning, more indirectly of Peter Brötzmann's infamous free jazz aural assault Machine Gun:
http://www.youtube.com/v/HWiO5SFoh8g
Crank it up and the neighbors will think Satan and his minions are partying by your pool ;D
Well, what I had in mind were the moments in the Xenakis piece where the timpani is pounding and all the instruments are rhythmically pulling each other apart hehe ;D.
As for that Machine Gun track... I've never heard completely avant-garde jazz like that- interesting! :o
Quote from: Grazioso on March 05, 2011, 06:21:06 PM
The technical death metal equivalent of Rimsky-Korsakov's forays into Eastern exoticism:
http://www.youtube.com/v/WKqTn2A9ZH4
I'm always left exhausted after listening to that one...
Some of those elements make me think of Schnittke, actually.
Cool... I've heard of Nile before but never got around to listening to anything by them. Thanks for posting.
Quote from: James on March 06, 2011, 04:21:17 AM
Physically ill from sampling all of this total garbage ... and why is it being posted even?
James, no one takes you seriously, so we really don't care what you think.
Quote from: Greg on March 06, 2011, 02:21:44 PMAs for that Machine Gun track... I've never heard completely avant-garde jazz like that- interesting! :o
Try to hear Brötzmann live if you can. I heard him live for the first time in 2009 (In Fresne-en-Woevre). There are some bits of my skull still embedded in the back wall of the room there.*
*hyperbole
Quote from: Greg on March 06, 2011, 02:21:44 PM
As for that Machine Gun track... I've never heard completely avant-garde jazz like that- interesting! :o
It's a tad intense. We surrender!
(http://www.euro-webonline.com/world_cultures/images/wwII_stalingrad.jpg)
If you dig that, you may want to check out one of his American influences, Albert Ayler:
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Well, in response to the post "If I like Ives" my response is this: If I like Ives, a miracle must have happened.
Quote from: John of Glasgow on March 07, 2011, 06:21:33 AM
Well, in response to the post "If I like Ives" my response is this: If I like Ives, a miracle must have happened.
Hmmm...have you heard
Three Places in New England? Or
Central Park after Dark?
If you like the pastiche aspect of Ives would recommend Schnittke, George Rochberg or John Zorn
Carter is sort of Ives's successor - taking alot of his ideas and abstracting them
Quote from: John of Glasgow on March 07, 2011, 06:21:33 AM
Well, in response to the post "If I like Ives" my response is this: If I like Ives, a miracle must have happened.
Such wit.
Ok, I Spotify-ed Ives for another blast of Central Park after dark. It seems to be as I remember. Lots of interesting textures and goings on, reflections of daytime in the night, etc. But it DOESN'T speak to me. It is like trying to tag along with someone whose language you do not understand. I can hear him speak, but I don't know what he is talking about.
So...on to his New England trilogy, which DOES speak to me from the beginning - and then it goes a bit peculiar. His musical allusions are well set, but I'm afraid if he were on Facebook, I would not press the "like" button.
Quote from: John of Glasgow on March 07, 2011, 09:05:27 PM
Ok, I Spotify-ed Ives for another blast of Central Park after dark. It seems to be as I remember. Lots of interesting textures and goings on, reflections of daytime in the night, etc. But it DOESN'T speak to me. It is like trying to tag along with someone whose language you do not understand. I can hear him speak, but I don't know what he is talking about.
So...on to his New England trilogy, which DOES speak to me from the beginning - and then it goes a bit peculiar. His musical allusions are well set, but I'm afraid if he were on Facebook, I would not press the "like" button.
John, I appreciate both your willingness to give Ives a fresh go, and your earnest not-quite-engagement with the music.
If you can sample this disc, it may (or may not) be a different texture of Ives experience for you: (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004SDRG.01.L.jpg)
Quote from: toucan on March 08, 2011, 06:07:44 AM
Any chance The Answered Question was inspired by Taps - you know, that piece for buggle they play when Marines have died?
Only one g in bugle, you born misspeller, you ; )
Quote from: Apollon on March 08, 2011, 04:25:45 AM
John, I appreciate both your willingness to give Ives a fresh go, and your earnest not-quite-engagement with the music.
If you can sample this disc, it may (or may not) be a different texture of Ives experience for you:
[asin]B00004SDRG[/asin]
To follow up on this, John, here is what our own Joe B had to say about this disc:QuoteI finished listening to this CD a little while ago and I'm still glowing. It's a creative bit of programming in a well-performed, well-engineered reaslization. First come Ives's pieces for chamber orchestra, grouped as he intended into his idiosyncratic "sets." Then come the same pieces again, in the same order, in their versions for voice and piano. Some of the orchestral music. such as "Evening" was unknown to me. Others, like "Charlie Rutledge," I knew only as songs. (The orchestral arrangement of "Rutledge" is an eye-opener--it's like Copland by way of Varese.) Loveliest of all is the voice of the soprano Susan Narucki. Her interpretation of the Se'er (Set No. 1) seemed rather strident on first hearing, but in the softer, slower songs she gave me chills, esp. "Like a Sick Eagle" and "The Indians." The CD also includes a fine rendition of the Set for Theater Orchestra. Conductor Richard Bernas and his ensemble do well by the broken, sad-yet-happy ragtime of "In the Inn." The only omission in the collection is a vocal performance of "In the Cage"--the first of the three pieces. The other two don't have vocals counterparts, but "In the Cage" does, and one wonders why Bernas and company decided not to include it.
I have always believed that some of Ives's best music can be found in his pieces for chamber orchestra, in which, surprisingly, he uses his signature quotation technique only sparingly. Most of the tunes are original. The music is undiluted Ives, and it is wonderful.
I learned some crucial ideas about Ives from this, and I think it's really great!
https://youtu.be/DPypnrXR8iQ (https://youtu.be/DPypnrXR8iQ)