Basically self-explanatory. However, please include why you feel the way you do. ;)
My music, because it's mine! ;D
In general I feel most all chamber music is underrated. Orchestral warhorses get performed and recorded much more often than smaller chamber works, and it is usually in chamber music where composers make their most innovative artistic statements.
Quote from: hornteacher on August 03, 2007, 04:53:35 PM
... and it is usually in chamber music where composers make their most innovative artistic statements.
Examples of which would be?
QuoteWhat is, in your opinion, the most underrated piece of music?
Why,
Chausson's Concert for Violin, Piano and String Quartet, of course. :D
Quote from: Mark on August 03, 2007, 04:55:36 PM
Examples of which would be?
Beethoven's late string quartets and violin sonatas, Mozart's clarinet quintet, Shostakovich's string quartets, Brahms Horn Trio and string sextets. All of these are famous chamber works but are not nearly as recorded or performed as the "Eroica", "Emperor", "New World", or Brandenbergs.
Now if you'd like an example of a lesser known underrated piece of chamber music, I nominate the "Kegelstatt" Trio for Clarinet, Viola, and Piano by Mozart. It was written around the same time as the more famous Clarinet Concerto and Quintet and is of the same high quality but for some reason is lesser known.
Quote from: hornteacher on August 03, 2007, 06:24:04 PM
Beethoven's late string quartets and violin sonatas, Mozart's clarinet quintet, Shostakovich's string quartets, Brahms Horn Trio and string sextets. All of these are famous chamber works but are not nearly as recorded or performed as the "Eroica", "Emperor", "New World", or Brandenbergs.
The question was underrated. I don't think any of those works could be called "underrated". They are famous as you said, and, at least from my experience, regarded very highly. Sure, chamber music may not be performed as often as orchestral music but I don't see anyone saying that these works are particularly worse than their orchestral counterparts.
OK, then - how about Satie's Socrate? Everyone who writes about it knows it is a unique and very important masterpiece of twentieth century music; everyone who listens to it immediately knows the same. But given its quality and importance, a disproportionately small number of people know it and talk about it is rare.
I'll go for Strauss's Sinfonia domestica.
I don't know Socrate Luke, but Janacek's piano music also came to mind.
Well, of course, I'd always promote certain of Janacek's works. And I'd argue that the finest of his works belong not near the front rank but right at the front rank of the repertoire. But I've argued that enough before... ;D
But, honestly, Socrate is one of 'those' seminal pieces - always described in the most glowing terms when it is described (it is, pretty unequivocally, Satie's masterpiece), and held up by musicians who do know it (like Cage) as a major influence. But outside that small circle, it is never discussed - the fact that you, Sean, (with your extensive listening history) haven't heard it rather bears out my point! Of course Satie's 'musique pauvre' by its very nature will never be pushed into the limelight; it will always be sidelined under by showier, more 'expressive' works (ugh)
Quote from: Symphonien on August 03, 2007, 08:33:13 PM
Sure, chamber music may not be performed as often as orchestral music...
Not even that - for logistical reasons I imagine there are plenty more chamber performances than orchestral ones. But, partly because they are more of a logistical feat, and because the public tend to assume that bigger=better (the media tend to collude with this, of course), orchestral performances are higher profile, and orchestral pieces (above all anything called 'symphony' ::)) become more the focus of general attention than chamber pieces. This board has proof enough of that itself - what else prompts a thread called 'That one symphony you never get tired of' which makes an unwritten but implied presumption that symphonies per se are a class apart. It's not surprising, of course, but on musical grounds it isn't supportable.
Luke, oh don't mention the listening history, there are still quite a few important works I've never got hold of, for instance I have on my desk only now after 24 years, Sibelius's Kullervo symphony. I read however Grove says Socrate is a particularly sensitive and moving piece, and I'll seek it out at the earliest opportunity at the library.
Also many of Faure's works, another Frenchman, are also very subtle and civilized: it's been said he'll never be a really popular composer, but works like the Piano quartets are in a special category I think.
Getting a little off topic, here's a few of those works I've yet to get hold of, which I read are key listening:
Danzi Wind quintets
Diamond Rounds for string orchestra
D'Indy String quartet No.2
Dvorak Biblical songs
Eisler Die Massnahme & Zeitungsausschnitte
Gesualdo Sixth Book of madrigals
Gluck Alceste
Goetz Piano quartet & Piano quintet
Holmboe Requiem for Nietzsche & String quartets inc 5, 10 & 13
Ives String quartet No.2
Norgard Symphony No.6
Pettersson Symphony No.6
Piston Symphony No.4
Rachmaninov All night vigil
Rimsky-Korsakov The Invisible city of Kitezh
Rouse Flute concerto
Schnittke Piano quintet
Schoenberg Von Heute auf Morgen & Wind quintet
Schumann Scenes from Goethe's Faust
Stockhausen Hymnen
Vaughan Williams Riders to the sea
Wilbye Madrigals
Xenakis Keqrops
Not necessarily underrated, but woefully underappreciated:
Bruckner's masterly, gorgeous string quintet, which gets totally overshadowed by his orchestral and choral works for no right reason.
Zemlinsky's opulent tone poem Die Seejungfrau (The Mermaid), which would surely garner the love of fans of Strauss and early Schoenberg (Zemlinsky's father-in-law) if it were only heard more.
Lili Boulanger's striking and eerie early 20th-century choral work Psaume 130 "Du fond de l'abime". Her entire oeuvre is unjustly unknown to most.
Pettersson's 7th symphony, surely one of the greatest (and darkest) 20th-century symphonies. Anyone who likes Shostakovich needs to hear this immediately. (Indeed it excels most of his symphonic output, to my mind.)
Czech composers Fibich, Novak, and Suk, who wrote some pieces every bit as beautiful and interesting as those by Smetana and Dvorak, yet are known only to die-hard collectors/explorers.
Quote from: Sean on August 04, 2007, 03:13:15 AM
Getting a little off topic, here's a few of those works I've yet to get hold of, which I read are key listening:
Rachmaninov All night vigil
If I may, Sean, I'll make an extremely biased suggestion (I have about 19 versions of this masterpiece) that you hear this work most urgently. An absolutely awesome choral composition that very often leaves me humbled by its brilliance. If you can find Sveshnikov's landmark recording with the USSR State Choir, buy it without a moment's hesitation. If not, Hillier's fairly recent recording on Harmonia Mundi is the second disc of choice (SACD if you have the facilities).
Thanks Mark. Actually I understand this piece is another title for the Vespers, which I do know...
Any Gesualdo. I've been listening to him of late, and he's grown on me. His music is emotionally stirring. It doesn't come across as boring chant or anything like that. I had a silly impression like I think others do (not necessary on gmg but instead the general classical music listener) to think that pre-Bach music is a boring, tedious chore.
I think that I'm not the only one that underrates well, pretty much all pre-Bach music. And the madrigal is a form that I've nearly completely overlooked, associating it all with Dowland.
Quote from: DavidW on August 04, 2007, 07:42:59 AM
I think that I'm not the only one that underrates well, pretty much all pre-Bach music. And the madrigal is a form that I've nearly completely overlooked, associating it all with Dowland.
A very good point. I know I do.
I might still nominate Karl Amadeus Hartmann's Sixth Symphony, not only because it's an almost unplayed great symphony, but also because it's so exciting to listen to that it ought to be a crowd-pleaser live.
Art should not be "rated" in the first place, and, as a consequence, art should not be susceptible to being either overrated or underrated ........
anything by Bruckner, just because people were too impatient to try to listen to it.
Quote from: hornteacher on August 03, 2007, 06:24:04 PM
Now if you'd like an example of a lesser known underrated piece of chamber music, I nominate the "Kegelstatt" Trio for Clarinet, Viola, and Piano by Mozart.
The world is chock full of clarinetists, and they are constantly badgering their violist and pianist friends to play it with them.
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on August 04, 2007, 08:05:45 AM
The world is chock full of clarinetists, and they are constantly badgering their violist and pianist friends to play it with them.
You'd think violists would jump at the chance because the writing is so good for all three parts.
um, the percussion concerto i posted on the "Listen to this" thread that no one is listening to.
after that, Mahler 10 and Prokofiev 2. I would include others but I think they're just more overlooked than underrated....
I'd like to speak in favor of Tchaikovsky's early works, particularly Symphony No. 1 in G minor - undeservedly neglected in favor of his later symphonies. It was, in fact, one of the works by Tchaikovsky that he didn't regret writing later in write and didn't grow to hate. The tranquility of the first movement's opening hooked me the first time I heard it. Also, Nielsen's Saul og David I find good, yet Maskarade is often favored. I love the plot and the use of the chorus. Berlioz's Harold in Italy is also, I think, undeservedly neglected while Symphonie Fantastique is placed in the spotlight. I love the use of the Viola to bring back ideas from earlier movements and such. Plus, there are some very 'catchy' melodies in there.
That's not to say that I think that any of those works that have the spotlight don't deserve to be there, of course. :) In fact, I'd say that all classical music is underrated, and in a sense the pieces that everyone recognizes as great are just as underrated - they are great works that need even more recognition than they have.
Quote from: Sean on August 04, 2007, 02:20:40 AM
I'll go for Strauss's Sinfonia domestica.
You've got my support
Quote from: Sean on August 04, 2007, 03:13:15 AM
Danzi Wind quintets
It's not the only underrated string quintet
QuoteD'Indy String quartet No.2
really? I'm goin to give it a listen again.
QuoteGesualdo Sixth Book of madrigals
Everything before the Vivaldi/Bach/Handel generation, I would say.
QuoteGluck Alceste
Most of non-Mozart 1750-1800 composition.
QuoteSchnittke Piano quintet
i'm surprised you chose that one. I think it's very appreciated, by the GMGers at least. I'm sad we don't hear a lot of comments about his magnificent Cello Sonata.
Sean you must hear that Ives Quartet immediately! I will contact you in about a week or two about it - I am going on holiday now.
Quote from: Sean on August 04, 2007, 02:20:40 AM
I'll go for Strauss's Sinfonia domestica.
I won't. An incoherent mess. Last time I heard it, I thought it deserved every bit of the inattention it has traditionally been given.
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 04, 2007, 01:55:34 AM
OK, then - how about Satie's Socrate? Everyone who writes about it knows it is a unique and very important masterpiece of twentieth century music; everyone who listens to it immediately knows the same. But given its quality and importance, a disproportionately small number of people know it and talk about it is rare.
What's a good recording, Luke?
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on August 04, 2007, 03:52:31 PM
I won't. An incoherent mess. Last time I heard it, I thought it deserved every bit of the inattention it has traditionally been given.
But it's been generously served on recordings - there are about 3 dozen of them.
Novak : Pan, Symphonic Suite & Serenades
Hans Rott : Symphony
Quote from: Don on August 04, 2007, 04:01:25 PM
But it's been generously served on recordings - there are about 3 dozen of them.
None of them in my house.
It's still an incoherent mess. :D
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on August 04, 2007, 03:57:39 PM
What's a good recording, Luke?
I couldn't advise you in all conscience as I only have [heard] the one. But it's pretty idiomatic, I think: of the four vocal parts (all female) the main one (i.e. the singer of the third, longest, most infamous and most beautiful part) is taken by Mady Mesple; the orchestra is the Orchestre de Paris, cond. Pierre Dervaux. The perofmance pushes all the right buttons for me.
However, I can't recommend it wholeheartedly because the EMI double it is included on (called
Les Inspirations Insolites D'Erik Satie) includes all sorts of intruiging oddities, but to be honest (apart from a couple of fine but small pieces) none you'd really want except
Socrate. Not only that but the set as whole is poorly put together - the two
Gymnopedies in Debussy's (ill-advised and I think rather missing-the-point) arrangement are put on the wrong way round (and I've never heard as risible a performance of no 3). Worst of all,
Socrate is messed up - the first 1:10 of its first track
must for all sorts of reasons be the end of the previous piece (as I've heard no other recording I can't say 100%); and for that reason the end of this track spills over 1:10 into the second track. I had to rip the CD and re-edit it to have it make sense.(Funnily enough, my other EMI Saite set also has a cock-up - the disc printed as number 5 is actually disc 1 again >:( )
The most striking thing about
Socrate - unless you know your Satie, especially the long sequences of chords that make up the early Sarabandes,or some of the Rosicrucian music, or the 'Furniture Music' (world's first Muzak) or particularly the other subtle masterpiece of Satie's later years, the five Nocturnes for piano - is the cool, uninflected and distanced tone. Quite deliberately, Satie doesn't impose himself on the text, and explicitly treats his singing parts as quasi-spoken. The extremely rare and very gentle moments at which Satie allows his music to refer to the text (perhaps two or three times in the whole 35 minutes or so) are the more affecting for that. The accompaniment wends its way along quietly and impassively, and the voices (one in each of parts 1 and 3, two in the central part) simply spin out long syllabic lines above it. There hadn't been anything like this before...
I've taken about a minute of the beginnings of each of the first and third parts to give you a flavour of the thing. I've had to reduce quality to fit them here as an attachment, but you will get the drift.
Quote from: hornteacher on August 04, 2007, 10:04:49 AM
You'd think violists would jump at the chance because the writing is so good for all three parts.
They often do jump at the chance, judging by the great number of performances I've heard of it.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on August 04, 2007, 04:38:04 PM
None of them in my house.
Nor mine, but I haven't yet caught the Strauss bug.
Quote from: Don on August 04, 2007, 05:33:03 PM
Nor mine, but I haven't yet caught the Strauss bug.
Neither have I, though I've been exposed often enough. With the exception of perhaps 4-5 tone poems*, no more than 2 complete operas** (though I enjoy portions of several others***), one early piano-orchestra work (the Burleske), and a few of the very late works****, I have little liking or use for Richard Strauss, that bloated beached whale of early 20th-century music.
*Don Juan, Don Quixote, Till Eulenspiegel, Tod und Verklärung, Also sprach Zarathustra
**Salome, Elektra
***Rosenkavalier, Ariadne, Frau ohne Schatten
****Metamorphoses, Four Last Songs
I'm not kidding when I say the very thought of Richard Strauss creates in me an almost physical feeling of revulsion, which is matched only perhaps by - Messiaen.
1. 1812 overture - Tchaikovsky (in case your precious sarcasm sensor failed to work, I'll even provide you with one here)
2. Rage over a lost penny - LvB
3. any song for piano and voice - Bruckner
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on August 04, 2007, 04:58:07 PM
They often do jump at the chance, judging by the great number of performances I've heard of it.
That's nice. I wish I could find a great outlet for chamber music here. We have a great symphony orchestra in Charlotte but not as many outlets for smaller works.
Quote from: D Minor on August 04, 2007, 08:01:25 AM
Art should not be "rated" in the first place, and, as a consequence, art should not be susceptible to being either overrated or underrated ........
Ideally, yes, art should not be "rated," but it will always be susceptible to valuations. If people could overcome their personal tastes and transcend all value judgments, this world would be an infinitely more enlightened (and peaceful) place...though it might make discussions of music dull.
As for underappreciated pieces of music, I would suggest Prokofiev's The Gambler, perhaps the most thematically and motivically inventive opera I know. Its deliberate talkiness is usually perceived as a flaw, but I've never heard prosaic dialog handled so deftly...it's an astounding work.
Schoenberg's "tonal" works, amazing stuff! like this one:
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9607
Fanny Mendelssohn-Hensel's lieder because although amongst the finest ever composed they are still not performed often enough.
Quote from: MahlerTitan on August 05, 2007, 01:58:25 PM
Schoenberg's "tonal" works, amazing stuff! like this one:
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9607
oh, that reminds me.... it's not tonal (though not strikingly atonal, either), but Schoenberg's
Book Of Hanging Gardens, too 8)
Quote from: greg on August 06, 2007, 05:36:32 AM
. . . but Schoenberg's Book Of Hanging Gardens, too 8)
(* pounds the table *)
quintett
Sinfonia domestica doesn't quite have the logic of the earlier poems but is much much stronger than Alpinesinfonie and the Karajan recording is essential listening, unlikely ever to be surpassed.
Guido
Ives is someone I have definitely not quite worked out yet.
Do you know Variations on America for organ? How peculiar, comical and profound is that?
While I don't really know of a single piece that could be awarded "most underrated," I do think Martinů is off the radar for most listeners, especially his larger works. (Certainly that is the case on concert programs.) His ballet Špalíček is charming, and ditto La Revue de Cuisine, and the few operas I've heard are full of interesting material. Last year I finally heard Hlas lesa (The Voice of the Forest), originally designed for radio, and wondered why this engaging score is just sitting around waiting for someone to program it.
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on August 06, 2007, 08:37:26 AM
While I don't really know of a single piece that could be awarded "most underrated," I do think Martinů is off the radar for most listeners, especially his larger works. (Certainly that is the case on concert programs.) His ballet Špalíček is charming, and ditto La Revue de Cuisine, and the few operas I've heard are full of interesting material. Last year I finally heard Hlas lesa (The Voice of the Forest), originally designed for radio, and wondered why this engaging score is just sitting around waiting for someone to program it.
--Bruce
Thanks for the recommendations. I've been listening to his symphonies a lot lately — much masterful music there. It's a wonder his 1st is almost never programmed — it's a real barn-burner!
Quote from: Kullervo on August 06, 2007, 08:40:45 AM
Thanks for the recommendations. I've been listening to his symphonies a lot lately — much masterful music there, especially in the 6th.
Yes, I completely agree (and you don't see those programmed, either).
--Bruce
Quote from: karlhenning on August 06, 2007, 05:41:38 AM
(* pounds the table *)
;D
i hope you were done eating all of your lunch when you did this...
Late Stravinsky. Mass, Cantata, Threni....
Frank Martins major scores (the oratorios, der Cornet, the symphony)
Ludwig van Beethoven's 9th symphony, "Choral" in D minor, op.125. It should be made the national anthem of every single country throughout the entire history of mankind.
I'm dead serious.
Quote from: Bonehelm on August 07, 2007, 07:11:12 AM
Ludwig van Beethoven's 9th symphony, "Choral" in D minor, op.125. It should be made the national anthem of every single country throughout the entire history of mankind.
I'm dead serious.
Ludwig 9th is already universal patrimony of the UNESCO.
Well, judging some other topics around, I'd have to say Mozart chamber music as a whole. Quite sad indeed.
Quote from: erato on August 07, 2007, 06:02:55 AM
Frank Martins major scores (der Cornet)
Totally agree! What a wonderful work!
Also, I would nominate Glinka's viola sonata and Veinberg's cello sonatas.
Quote from: Bonehelm on August 07, 2007, 07:11:12 AM
Ludwig van Beethoven's 9th symphony, "Choral" in D minor, op.125. It should be made the national anthem of every single country throughout the entire history of mankind.
I'm dead serious.
(imagining a crowd of no less than 500 Chinese elementary students singing in German)
Quote from: Bonehelm on August 07, 2007, 07:11:12 AM
Ludwig van Beethoven's 9th symphony, "Choral" in D minor, op.125. It should be made the national anthem of every single country throughout the entire history of mankind.
I'm dead serious.
the day that happens is the day i shoot myself
I would say Stanley Wolfe's orchestral music. I just know his name because I person in another forum mentioned him and I spent one and a half year to get his orchestral music on CD, but it was worth it!
After that time his name came across my eyes again, so does anyone of you know him?
Quote from: springrite on August 07, 2007, 07:57:10 AM
Totally agree! What a wonderful work!
I'm on record as stating that my favorite record is the Orfeo record of Martin's der Cornet, and that the work is one of my ten favorite works ever. I am considering purchasing the new MDG recording of it -anybody heard it?
Quote from: Sean on August 06, 2007, 08:21:29 AM
quintett
Sinfonia domestica doesn't quite have the logic of the earlier poems but is much much stronger than Alpinesinfonie and the Karajan recording is essential listening, unlikely ever to be surpassed.
You're certainly answering Larry's post.
I love Sinfonia domestica.
Franz Schmidt. Das Buch mit sieben Siegeln.
Schmidt was politically naïve and made some really bad decisions, which came to affect him personally - as his wife was "liquidated." Still, Das Buch is a wonderful oratorio and - probably - the greatest oratorio (in my book) since Ein deutsches Requiem or Das klagende Lied.
I hope the Mitropoulos recording from Salzburg makes its way back onto the record shelves.
Quote from: Bonehelm on August 07, 2007, 07:11:12 AM
Ludwig van Beethoven's 9th symphony, "Choral" in D minor, op.125. It should be made the national anthem of every single country throughout the entire history of mankind.
I'm dead serious.
Well, Ode to Joy IS the official European hymn.
Today, "Beethoven's Ninth" belongs not only to the classic works in the concert business. The famous choral part in the final movement, with the text from poet Friedrich Schiller's "An die Freude" (Ode to Joy), has also been the European Union's official hymn since 1985.
Quote from: PSmith08 on August 07, 2007, 02:24:06 PM
Franz Schmidt. Das Buch mit sieben Siegeln.
Schmidt was politically naïve and made some really bad decisions, which came to affect him personally - as his wife was "liquidated." Still, Das Buch is a wonderful oratorio and - probably - the greatest oratorio (in my book) since Ein deutsches Requiem or Das klagende Lied.
I hope the Mitropoulos recording from Salzburg makes its way back onto the record shelves.
'
him and Wetz too! well, maybe no, because Schmit's music is a little easier on the ears than Wetz's.
Quote from: Bonehelm on August 07, 2007, 07:11:12 AM
Ludwig van Beethoven's 9th symphony, "Choral" in D minor, op.125. It should be made the national anthem of every single country throughout the entire history of mankind.
I'm dead serious.
What about the ancient country of
Babylon, which ceased to exist long before LvB wrote his 9th Symphony?
I agree with the whole chamber music thing. People just seem to associate classical music with choirs or orchestras, which are great and all, but so's chamber. Also I agree with the whole Janacek thing. Aside from my beloved Schubert, he's tops.
Specifically, I'd say Schubert's Arpeggione Sonata (played by 'cello these days) and Janacek's Pohadka (also played by cello, but not just these days...).
Another few: the L'Arlesienne suites by Bizet, Schuberts orchestral works, Schuberts der Hirt auf dem Felden (I... think I got the title right) for soprano, clarinet and piano, and I'm about done.
I also think that although they are generally exalted and all, Tchaikovsky's 6th symphony and Janacek's 2nd string quartet still don't get the recognition they deserve :P
Oh, and Colin Mawby's Ave Verum Corpus. That should be world-famous for sure based on quality. And us (2nd) basses get to do low D's!
Stefan Wolpe - Piece for Trumpet and Seven Instruments
Quote from: quintett op.57 on August 07, 2007, 01:14:11 PM
You're certainly answering Larry's post.
I love Sinfonia domestica.
Nah. If SD is stronger than AS, that just proves that AS is even worse. :D
In case anyone haven't noticed, my previous post wasn't serious, despite the last sentence. But seriously though, I reg
LarryQuote from: Larry Rinkel on August 04, 2007, 03:52:31 PM
I won't. An incoherent mess. Last time I heard it, I thought it deserved every bit of the inattention it has traditionally been given.
It's not at all as bad as that, and certainly Karajan finds both much sense and much vigour, not to mention virtuosity and precision, that others (eg Jarvi) don't. It's an amazingly exultant four movement quasi-symphony which though not quite carrying the day as the earlier poems do remains one of his greatest works, as indeed K says. Indulge in it...
Quote from: Sean on August 08, 2007, 07:52:44 AM
Larry
It's not at all as bad as that
Oh, yes it is. :D
Quote from: Sean on August 08, 2007, 07:52:44 AM
LarryIndulge in it...
Thanks, but only if you treat.
Muzio Clementi's Gradus ad Parnassum--an endlessly fascinating collection of 100 piano pieces, written between (roughly) 1817 and 1826, in a style that blends baroque counterpoint and richly complex classical harmonies. IMO, the greatest single piece of 19th century piano music. The fact that it hasn't been mentioned by anyone in this erudite forum confirms my conviction that it is woefully underrated.
Quote from: loudav on August 18, 2007, 09:14:21 PM
Muzio Clementi's Gradus ad Parnassum--an endlessly fascinating collection of 100 piano pieces, written between (roughly) 1817 and 1826, in a style that blends baroque counterpoint and richly complex classical harmonies. IMO, the greatest single piece of 19th century piano music. The fact that it hasn't been mentioned by anyone in this erudite forum confirms my conviction that it is woefully underrated.
Do you know if this is in print? Schirmer had an incomplete edition, which I suppose I ought to have acquired but yes, I have continued to neglect this work.
Bruckner's motets and masses are pretty overshadowed by the composer's own symphonies...I strongly recommend the Mass no.3 with Celly/MPO on EMI.
I normally don't post to these threads, as I don't think it really goes anywhere. But I realised I possibly have something I'd put forward: Joachim Raff's Symphony #9 in E minor, Op.208, Im Sommer.
Quote from: JoshLilly on August 20, 2007, 07:04:14 AM
I normally don't post to these threads, as I don't think it really goes anywhere. But I realised I possibly have something I'd put forward: Joachim Raff's Symphony #9 in E minor, Op.208, Im Sommer.
How is this disc?
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/61M26VW3T3L._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: JoshLilly on August 20, 2007, 07:04:14 AM
I normally don't post to these threads, as I don't think it really goes anywhere. But I realised I possibly have something I'd put forward: Joachim Raff's Symphony #9 in E minor, Op.208, Im Sommer.
I created this thread not really to open a can of worms. I simply wanted to find some music to look into that isn't as commonly talked about.
Quote from: LaciDeeLeBlanc on August 20, 2007, 07:15:25 AM
I created this thread not really to open a can of worms.
Welcome to GMG .......... :D
Corey,
Of the recordings of Raff's symphonies 8 - 11, I think those performances are the worst. And not by a small margin, but just really, really bad. In general, I prefer the Tudor label performances of Raff symphonies, with the possible sole exception of the 9th. At least in the first movement, I think the Marco Polo performance is best. Luckily, with the magic of computers, I can rip the 1st movement of the 9th from my Marco Polo disc, and the other 3 movements from the Tudor disc, and "build" my own, favourite performance.
Anyway, for the cpo CDs, I think all the Raff symphonies they've done are bad, and especially the 9th and 8th. That's just my opinion. I'm definitely not alone in it, but I have seen some people praise them; however, as far as I know, all the people I've seen praise it have heard only those versions of the symphonies and no other, so they have no comparison.
Quote from: JoshLilly on August 20, 2007, 07:36:45 AM
Corey,
Of the recordings of Raff's symphonies 8 - 11, I think those performances are the worst. And not by a small margin, but just really, really bad. In general, I prefer the Tudor label performances of Raff symphonies, with the possible sole exception of the 9th. At least in the first movement, I think the Marco Polo performance is best. Luckily, with the magic of computers, I can rip the 1st movement of the 9th from my Marco Polo disc, and the other 3 movements from the Tudor disc, and "build" my own, favourite performance.
Anyway, for the cpo CDs, I think all the Raff symphonies they've done are bad, and especially the 9th and 8th. That's just my opinion. I'm definitely not alone in it, but I have seen some people praise them; however, as far as I know, all the people I've seen praise it have heard only those versions of the symphonies and no other, so they have no comparison.
Thanks, I'll avoid it.
Quote from: LaciDeeLeBlanc on August 20, 2007, 07:15:25 AMI created this thread not really to open a can of worms. I simply wanted to find some music to look into that isn't as commonly talked about.
I think it is serving your intended purpose well... I have added about a dozen works to my Amazon wish list and plan on purchasing them after I explore them a little more and see what the library has to offer.
Quote from: JoshLilly on August 20, 2007, 07:36:45 AM
Corey,
I prefer the Tudor label performances of Raff symphonies, with the possible sole exception of the 9th. At least in the first movement, I think the Marco Polo performance is best.
I've got the Naxos CD with Symphonies Nos 3 and 10. I'm not fully at ease with sound quality. I had the entire set from Symphony 6 to 10, which I was liking indeed, but I had to throw it into the bin because it was messed up in the audio. So I'm doomed not to have these symphonies in normal conditions.
I was interested in the Tudor recordings as well, nice covers too, but price is definetely too high for me to pay. (19€ one CD).
The question is: when is Naxos going to re-print the Marco Polo Raff's Serie?
Quote from: Ten thumbs on August 20, 2007, 01:54:30 AM
Do you know if this is in print? Schirmer had an incomplete edition, which I suppose I ought to have acquired but yes, I have continued to neglect this work.
My two copies are LP sets, but there's this set on CD, which I haven't heard:
http://cgi.ebay.com/CLEMENTI-GRADUS-AD-PARNASSUM-CD-Boxset-NEW_W0QQitemZ110153071730QQcmdZViewItem
http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/6754167/a/Clementi:+Gradus+ad+Parnassum.htm
http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?r=1&ean=600554768724
Quote from: loudav on August 20, 2007, 07:11:36 PM
My two copies are LP sets, but there's this set on CD, which I haven't heard:
http://cgi.ebay.com/CLEMENTI-GRADUS-AD-PARNASSUM-CD-Boxset-NEW_W0QQitemZ110153071730QQcmdZViewItem
http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/6754167/a/Clementi:+Gradus+ad+Parnassum.htm
http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?r=1&ean=600554768724
There's also a complete recording by Danielle Laval, in Accord.
Quote from: Gabriel on August 21, 2007, 12:07:54 AM
There's also a complete recording by Danielle Laval, in Accord.
That is my favorite on LP. Is it also on CD?
Haydn op. 20
Mozart's excellent "Haydn Quartets" were mostly modeled off of this set (as well as op.33). WaM succeeded in what he aimed for: duplicating their feel and most of their compositional techniques, whilst adding just enough of himself to make them stand apart.
But, nothing ever beats the original eh ;)?
We've been here before, I think.
Most of that listed is underplayed rather than underrated.
1812 is, on the other hand, merely taken for granted.
I would suggest something like Lalo's Symphony in G that does not conform to what is expected of a French composer in that it is very Germanic, Schumannesque in fact, but it is a fine work and recorded by Beecham who didn't record any old shit!
Come to think of it French opera tends to be seriously underrated.
Quote from: loudav on August 21, 2007, 06:34:36 AM
That is my favorite on LP. Is it also on CD?
It is; I bought it some months ago.
http://www4.fnac.com/Shelf/article.aspx?PRID=1258653&OrderInSession=1&Mn=23&SID=c0b7bff2-be5e-0cb2-7714-3f47cefde88a&TTL=220820071738&Origin=FnacAff&Ra=-29&To=0&Nu=1&UID=09A7741CF-105F-59C9-F4E2-2C2433E7C7BA&Fr=0 (http://www4.fnac.com/Shelf/article.aspx?PRID=1258653&OrderInSession=1&Mn=23&SID=c0b7bff2-be5e-0cb2-7714-3f47cefde88a&TTL=220820071738&Origin=FnacAff&Ra=-29&To=0&Nu=1&UID=09A7741CF-105F-59C9-F4E2-2C2433E7C7BA&Fr=0)
Quote from: Hector on August 21, 2007, 07:00:28 AM
Most of that listed is underplayed rather than underrated.
There is another list of pieces 'under-known' for one reason or another. For instance Fanny Hensel's lied for piano in Eb of 24.11.1846 was lost in archive for nearly 150 years. Yet if it were to become widely known I believe it would quickly find its way to the top of many people's wish list.
Quote from: Gabriel on August 21, 2007, 07:40:56 AM
It is; I bought it some months ago.
http://www4.fnac.com/Shelf/article.aspx?PRID=1258653&OrderInSession=1&Mn=23&SID=c0b7bff2-be5e-0cb2-7714-3f47cefde88a&TTL=220820071738&Origin=FnacAff&Ra=-29&To=0&Nu=1&UID=09A7741CF-105F-59C9-F4E2-2C2433E7C7BA&Fr=0 (http://www4.fnac.com/Shelf/article.aspx?PRID=1258653&OrderInSession=1&Mn=23&SID=c0b7bff2-be5e-0cb2-7714-3f47cefde88a&TTL=220820071738&Origin=FnacAff&Ra=-29&To=0&Nu=1&UID=09A7741CF-105F-59C9-F4E2-2C2433E7C7BA&Fr=0)
Thanks for pointing that out. I'll stick with my LPs, but my .02 to anyone who's reading: that's a great set and is well worth getting if you like classical era piano music. Clementi expanded the classical harmonic range before Beethoven, then expanded it further as a contemporary and admirer of Beethoven. Laval's performances are solid and seemingly effortless. The recording has a warm slightly-echoey quality but is plenty well defined for my ears. Again and again listening to the GadP I find myself thinking that if I wrote music I'd want it to be exactly like that.
Quote from: JoshLilly on August 20, 2007, 07:36:45 AM
Corey,
Of the recordings of Raff's symphonies 8 - 11, I think those performances are the worst. And not by a small margin, but just really, really bad. In general, I prefer the Tudor label performances of Raff symphonies, with the possible sole exception of the 9th. At least in the first movement, I think the Marco Polo performance is best. Luckily, with the magic of computers, I can rip the 1st movement of the 9th from my Marco Polo disc, and the other 3 movements from the Tudor disc, and "build" my own, favourite performance.
Anyway, for the cpo CDs, I think all the Raff symphonies they've done are bad, and especially the 9th and 8th. That's just my opinion. I'm definitely not alone in it, but I have seen some people praise them; however, as far as I know, all the people I've seen praise it have heard only those versions of the symphonies and no other, so they have no comparison.
That's too bad, as I just picked up this disc (but haven't slit the plastic yet). But what's so bad about it? You provide no reasons, and in fact others on rmcr have commented very favorably on this set:
Quote> > As for the Raff, I can sympathize. I'm starting to like his music more
> > now that I picked up more of his symphonies, on CPO.
> Do you have the CPO 2 cd set of Raff's "seasons' symphonies, 8-11?
> Very impressive music and performances.
> Marc Perman
Yes. Before that I had some on Hyperion and one or two other labels,
which were good but not as impressive. I liked everything about the CPO
discs--the music seemed surprisingly individual and sophisticated
considering how much garbage was written during that period, and the
playing was of the highest caliber from the Philharmonia Hungarica. One
of these days I'm going to want to get their recording of the 7th.
--Jeff
I just don't like the tempi they use, the playing. I don't know how to explain it, I just don't like the performances. If we were to sit in a room and play them side by side, I could verbally point out where and what I don't like. It's not a problem with sound quality, as cpo seems pretty universally good on that. I just don't like what the conductor and/or orchestra do compared to the Tudor versions, and especially compared to the Marco Polo 9th.
Quote from: JoshLilly on August 23, 2007, 06:00:11 AM
I just don't like the tempi they use, the playing. I don't know how to explain it, I just don't like the performances. If we were to sit in a room and play them side by side, I could verbally point out where and what I don't like. It's not a problem with sound quality, as cpo seems pretty universally good on that. I just don't like what the conductor and/or orchestra do compared to the Tudor versions, and especially compared to the Marco Polo 9th.
All right, that's a start. Are the tempi too fast, too slow? are the balances too thick, too transparent? is the phrasing less detailed and articulated than in other versions? Not knowing this music at all, before I think about taking this back unopened, I'd like to know a bit more why you find this set so unsatisfactory. And perhaps also you can list your favorite versions of the Raff works you most admire.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on August 23, 2007, 06:20:08 AM
All right, that's a start. Are the tempi too fast, too slow? are the balances too thick, too transparent? is the phrasing less detailed and articulated than in other versions? Not knowing this music at all, before I think about taking this back unopened, I'd like to know a bit more why you find this set so unsatisfactory. And perhaps also you can list your favorite versions of the Raff works you most admire.
You ought to access the Raff Society website for reviews of all recordings. As I recall the Tudor recordings, mainly under Stadlmair, are seen as complimentary to Albert's CPO recordings.
It was a broadcast of the CPO 10th that persuaded me into buying Albert/CPO's set.
By this time the now defunct Philharmonia Hungarica was not the same orchestra that recorded the complete Haydn symphonies under Dorati and the plug was finally pulled by Chancellor Kohl's government when funding was withdrawn.
Sometimes too fast, sometimes too slow. I don't think the opening of the 9th is beautiful enough how it is handled on the cpo CD, and find both the Tudor and especially Marco Polo versions better. I just like them more. For the most part, I prefer Tudor versions: Symphonies 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11. I prefer Marco Polo versions for 8 and 9. For the 2nd symphony, it's about a tie I guess. And for cpo discs, I've only heard the 8-11 box, but I think they've also recorded the 7th. I don't hate their renditions of the 10th or 11th, but I think they're inferior to either of the others I've heard. In the case of the 9th, the other three versions I've heard are all better, in my opinion. It's not much about the sound quality at all, it's just my taste for how these symphonies are performed. I first heard Marco Polo CDs of all his symphonies, I bought the complete set before ever hearing the Tudor ones, but most of the Raff fans I know kept recommending them, so I got them (mostly used) finally. And I ended up switching to preferring those, with the exceptions I outlined above. At last, I listened to the cpo 8-11 set, and liked those the least. I almost wish that set didn't exist, mainly because of how they do the 9th, I feel that it might make some people that would be swept away by it from hearing another version just go "eh" and forget Raff.
Other than the symphonies, there aren't usually multiple versions of the same work available. For example, if you want his awesome Cello Concerto #1, you've got to go Tudor, I don't think there's anything else out there. The Piano Concerto is the major exception, there are like 6 or more recordings of that. The string quartets I think are coming out at the same time by two labels, one of them Tudor; the other might be cpo, I forget. cpo redeems itself toward Raff in my view with their coming out of Raff's complete music for violin and piano, including the highly melodic Violin Sonata #1.
Quote from: bhodges on August 06, 2007, 08:37:26 AM
While I don't really know of a single piece that could be awarded "most underrated," I do think Martinů is off the radar for most listeners, especially his larger works. (Certainly that is the case on concert programs.) His ballet Špalíček is charming, and ditto La Revue de Cuisine, and the few operas I've heard are full of interesting material. Last year I finally heard Hlas lesa (The Voice of the Forest), originally designed for radio, and wondered why this engaging score is just sitting around waiting for someone to program it.
--Bruce
What non-vocal ( >:D) works by
Martinů should be on every listener's playlist?
Quote from: Dm on January 13, 2008, 05:08:56 PM
What non-vocal ( >:D) works by Martinů should be on every listener's playlist?
Double Concerto
Quote from: Dm on January 13, 2008, 05:27:50 PM
Thanks, Corey! 8)
Assuming you weren't being sarcastic, you can listen to some samples here (http://www.amazon.com/Martinu-Symphony-No-Double-Concerto/dp/B00118YRJA/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1200277831&sr=8-6).
Quote from: Corey on January 13, 2008, 05:34:30 PM
Assuming you weren't being sarcastic, you can listen to some samples here (http://www.amazon.com/Martinu-Symphony-No-Double-Concerto/dp/B00118YRJA/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1200277831&sr=8-6).
Thanks. Does anyone have thoughts on Martinu's cello concertos or symphonies?
Quote from: Dm on January 13, 2008, 06:00:30 PM
Thanks. Does anyone have thoughts on Martinu's cello concertos or symphonies?
Haven't heard any of the cello concertos but the symphonies are all good. The Thomson/Royal Scottish National Orchestra set on Chandos is cheap enough that you won't be irked if you end up not liking them, but judging by what I know of your tastes, I think you'll find it worthwhile.
Quote from: Corey on January 13, 2008, 06:10:20 PM
Haven't heard any of the cello concertos but the symphonies are all good. The Thomson/Royal Scottish National Orchestra set on Chandos is cheap enough that you won't be irked if you end up not liking them, but judging by what I know of your tastes, I think you'll find it worthwhile.
I have that set and can't get past the first symphony--not because I dislike it, but because I like it so much, I keep replaying it :)
Quote from: Grazioso on August 04, 2007, 04:29:21 AM
Lili Boulanger's striking and eerie early 20th-century choral work Psaume 130 "Du fond de l'abime". Her entire oeuvre is unjustly unknown to most.
I would have said that too. :) I really love her works! And I checked the recordings...there only exists a very few. :o Some of her largest and greatest orchestra works are only recorded once or twice I think.
Try his string quartets. I have it all and like them very much.
Luke, I was taken by your suggestion of Satie's Socrate. I have pre-ordered this recording.........
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516xsOowRUL._SS500_.jpg)
No idea when it will arrive. Most of the recordings of the piece are NLA.
Mike
Quote from: carlos on January 17, 2008, 01:16:32 PM
Try his string quartets. I have it all and like them very much.
Whose?
Quote from: Corey on January 17, 2008, 07:06:13 PM
Whose?
I'm 99.9% positive Carlos was referring to the Martinu's string quartets.
Quote from: Don on January 17, 2008, 07:08:52 PM
I'm 99.9% positive Carlos was referring to the Martinu's string quartets.
That's what I thought too, but I wanted to hear it from him.
Quote from: Corey on January 17, 2008, 07:11:25 PM
That's what I thought too, but I wanted to hear it from him.
Looks like you'll have to wait till tomorrow.
Quote from: Don on January 17, 2008, 07:24:09 PM
Looks like you'll have to wait till tomorrow.
Drat, what will I do 'til then!?
Tchaikowsky's second piano concerto easily beats his first. That triple concerto in the slow movement is just so beautiful.
Quote from: knight on January 17, 2008, 01:43:07 PM
Luke, I was taken by your suggestion of Satie's Socrate. I have pre-ordered this recording.........
Hope it doesn't disappoint! Did you listen to the tiny samples I posted (more representative than tiny samples usually are, as the work is pretty static!)? As for me, I'm planning to listen to the piece again tonight.
So I'm a dweeb: I love the music that Barry Manilow wrote for the Disney Classic Thumbelina.
Yes, i was refering to Martinu's SQ
and Miaskovsky' SQ
and Glazunov's SQ
and Simpson's SQ
and Cherubini's SQ
and Stevenhagen's SQ
and Suk's SQ
and Smetana second SQ
and all Taneyev's chamber
and Strauss SQ
and Paul Juon's,Hindemith's,Reger's,Bazzini's,Salmanov's,
Saint-Saën's,Goldmark's SQ
and......
Quote from: Dm on January 13, 2008, 06:00:30 PM
Thanks. Does anyone have thoughts on Martinu's cello concertos or symphonies?
Just saw the above...
The cello concertos are beautifully structured virtuoso vessels and are just bursting with invention.
I have this recording:
Quote from: donwyn on January 18, 2008, 05:20:29 PM
The cello concertos are beautifully structured virtuoso vessels and are just bursting with invention.
...and may just (come to think of it) take the crown for most underrated piece(s)...
Quote from: Ten thumbs on January 18, 2008, 12:17:41 PM
That triple concerto in the slow movement is just so beautiful.
Yes. I love that movement more than any other slow movement in Tchaikovsky's concertos ... check that ... it's one of my 4 or 5 favorite slow movements from any piece, ever. Achingly beautiful, especially in the uncut version (I refuse to listen to cut versions now), when the extraordinary dialog and the violin and cello parts are all in full bloom.
And listening to Konstantin Scherbakov play that unbelievable first movement cadenza is one awe-inspiring experience :o
Quote from: carlos on January 18, 2008, 02:42:21 PM
Yes, i was refering to Martinu's SQ
and Miaskovsky' SQ
and Glazunov's SQ
and Simpson's SQ
and Cherubini's SQ
and Stevenhagen's SQ
and Suk's SQ
and Smetana second SQ
and all Taneyev's chamber
and Strauss SQ
and Paul Juon's,Hindemith's,Reger's,Bazzini's,Salmanov's,
Saint-Saën's,Goldmark's SQ
and......
Mel Bonis's PQs
and......
Quote from: LaciDeeLeBlanc on August 03, 2007, 01:54:02 PM
Basically self-explanatory. However, please include why you feel the way you do. ;)
Here's one no one would ever think of mentioning.
Kurt Weill's sym1, discovered 4 or 5 yrs ago, and as of today's revisit of Weill's syms, i will include his equally incredible sym2.
Arkiv re-released the EMI which was rare/OOP for some yrs now.
i have 3 recordings of the 1st and 2nd sym. The 4th copy i find just "adequate", the Naxos release.
Not sure why the Weill 1st just sweeps me its sound world of colors and textures, but never fails to do so.
masterful ,short but economical (no dull parts to wade through), powerful emotionally toned syms.
The only other work i know to mention in "under-rated" terms, would be the Ruggles Sun-treader, and possibly his other work Men And Mountains. I think others would agree on Sun-treader as being a 'less-known-more deserved" masterpiece, as i've seen this same opinion expressed on other relevant topics.
Ruggles took some yrs to write the 15 minute work, but he "delivered the goods".
I think Hindemith's Sonata for Horn is one of his greatest works. Unlike almost all the chamber music I've heard, this can actually sound strong and not thin. But so few recordings of the piece exist. The only two I have are, in my opinion, awful. At least, the pianist is, for the most part. But neither recording pays much mind to the dynamics. The differences in volume are not exaggerated enough. And there's too much liberty taken with the tempo. Too much slowing down. Other tempos are either too fast or slow. I think the piece can be great if interpreted properly.
Quote from: LaciDeeLeBlanc on August 03, 2007, 01:54:02 PM
Basically self-explanatory. However, please include why you feel the way you do. ;)
Scriabin/Nemptin: Mysterium. A few enthusiasts compare it to Brian's "Gothic" Symphony #1
Quote from: hornteacher on August 03, 2007, 04:53:35 PM
In general I feel most all chamber music is underrated. Orchestral warhorses get performed and recorded much more often than smaller chamber works, and it is usually in chamber music where composers make their most innovative artistic statements.
Chamber music originally thrived partly because it could be published and sold to skilled amateurs living in the suburbs and the country, who could not usually attend city concerts. They could make their own music. This situation still holds today, as I've observed living in suburbs for most of the last 30 years or so. There has generally been much more live chamber music available in my areas than orchestral concerts. The difference is that the skilled amateurs have been replaced either by well-known soloists picking up a few extra bucks, or unknown and underemployed orchestral musicians.
Max Bruch's late Concerto for Clarinet and Viola. A truly superlative work, generally softer and more contemplative than the two or three works, including the Violin Concerto, for which Bruch is remembered.
Quote from: dm on August 04, 2007, 08:01:25 AM
Art should not be "rated" in the first place, and, as a consequence, art should not be susceptible to being either overrated or underrated ........
This daring and indeed communistic assertion flies in the face not only of all tradition but also of Sir Edward Elgar.
Consider this interview recorded by Gerald Cumberland in his "Set Down in Malice":
Gerald Cumberland: " But suppose," I urged, "a new work of yours were so universally condemned by the critics that performances of it ceased to take place. Would you not then read their criticisms in order to discover if there was not some truth in their statements?"
Sir Edward Elgar: "It is possible, but I do not think I should. But your supposition is an inconceivable one: there is never universal agreement among musical critics. I think you will notice that many of them are, from the æsthetic point of view, absolutely devoid of principle; I mean, they are victims of their own temperaments. They, as the school-girl says, 'know what they like.' The music they condemn is either the music that does not appeal to their particular kind of nervous system or it is the music they do not understand. They have no standard, no norm, no historical sense, no . . ."
He stammered a little and waved a vague arm in the air.
Cumberland: "There are exceptions, of course," I ventured. "Newman, for example."
Elgar: "No; Ernest Newman is not altogether an exception. He is an unbeliever, and therefore cannot understand religious music - music that is at once reverential, mystical and devout."
(Note especially the expressions "principle," "temperaments," "standard," "norm," "historical sense," "religious" and "mystical"!)
In my opinion the most the most underrated is
Keith Emerson's Piano Concerto No. 1.
Jeffrey Biegel will be performing it April 13, the first time it's been performed in 31 years. Mr. Biegel has been the leading exponent of this work, having recorded it with Leonard Slatkin conducting the BBC Concert Orchestra for the Naxos label.
On Youtube - Version of the third movement arranged for Piano and Percussion. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGJu55HdOhw)
On Youtube - Same movement from the Piano and Orchestra version, try to listen around the poor sound. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU0gmE6UJxY&NR=1)
Other compositions that do not get the credit they deserve include:
- Lennox Berkeley: Mont Juic
- Duke Ellington: Harlem for Orchestra
- Jack End: Blues For A Killed Cat for Wind Ensemble
- Michael Gandolfi: The Garden of Cosmic Speculation
- Morton Gould: Latin American Symphonette
- Holst:Beni Mora and Japanese Suite
- Johan de Meij: Symphony No. 1 "The Lord Of The Rings" and Symphony No. 3 "Planet Earth"
- Gian Carlo Menotti: Violin Concerto
- Carl Nielsen: Aladdin Suite
- Respighi: Belkis, Queen of Sheba
- William Russo: The Carousel Suite, Street Music: A Blues Concerto for Harmonica, Piano and Orchestra, and Three Pieces for Blues Band and Orchestra
- Harald Sæverud: Peer Gynt Suite No. 1 (totally different than Greig's version)
- Richard Strauss: Josephs Legende
- Eric Satie: Parade
- Tchaikovsky: Fatum - Symphonic Poem
- Arthur Wills: Fenlands: The Vikings for Brass Band and Organ
One to comes to mind is Enescu's three suites for piano which can be had on a gorgeous Avie disc played by Luiza Borac.
I've always loved the Alpine Symphony, and I think it's probably the most underrated work, although I'm not alone in loving it. I also love the Symphonie Domestica, but comparing the two is comparing apples and oranges.
A great performance,live or recorded of the Alpine symphony is a truly moving and uplifting experience. Every bar of the work is sublime.
Strauss was an atheist or at least an agnostic, but listening to the Alpine symphony
is a religious experience for me,at least.
Other underrate dworks are the lesser-known operas of Strauss, such as Die Schweigsame Frau, which is an amost Rossinian opera buffa and absolutely delightful. If you can find the Janowski/Dresden/EMI recording, grab it!
The Nielsen violin concerto is one of the most unjustly neglected of violin concertos,and more violinists ought to take it up. And I can't understand the neglect of the Myaskovsky cello concerto. Where are you Yo Yo Ma? Please do this and record it!
I also like the thre symphonies of Max Bruch very much,which I got to know from the excellent set with James Conlon and the Cologne Gurzenich orchestra on EMI.
They would make a welcome change at concerts from the same old Brahms symphonies, wonderful as they are. Don't miss this recording if you can find it.
One persons underrated is another persons mediocre work - its all subjective
My choice would be
Liszt Dante Symphony - in particular the Paradise movement has some the most mesmerizing music ever ,,,,imo
Scriabin Symphony 2 - has some great moments too
Not sure Bax is so much underrated nowadays but listening to his 3rd symphony convinced me what a wonderfully passionate work this is but as far as i know never seen in concert hall
must be plenty more if i could only think :-X
Quote from: Bulldog on March 13, 2010, 07:09:28 PM
One to comes to mind is Enescu's three suites for piano which can be had on a gorgeous Avie disc played by Luiza Borac.
Not among Enescu's greatest works, and i don't like Borac's playing too boot (not like there's a whole lot of alternatives).
At any rate, i think Enescu's entire career pretty much fits into the premise of this thread. Probably the most underrated composer that i know of.
Quote from: offbeat on March 14, 2010, 08:31:50 AM
One persons underrated is another persons mediocre work - its all subjective
No its not. One of those two persons is obviously wrong.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 14, 2010, 09:44:24 AM
No its not. One of those two persons is obviously wrong.
No they are both correct as worthiness of a musical composition is personal opinion and personal opinion can NEVER be wrong, it is just different from person to person. Thus Offbeat is totally correct when he said
"One persons underrated is another persons mediocre work - its all subjective."
Quote from: Teresa on March 14, 2010, 10:05:05 AM
No they are both correct as worthiness of a musical composition is personal opinion and personal opinion can NEVER be wrong, it is just different from person to person. Thus Offbeat is totally correct when he said "One persons underrated is another persons mediocre work - its all subjective."
Don't get him started ;)
Quote from: Teresa on March 14, 2010, 10:05:05 AM
No they are both correct as worthiness of a musical composition is personal opinion and personal opinion can NEVER be wrong, it is just different from person to person. Thus Offbeat is totally correct when he said "One persons underrated is another persons mediocre work - its all subjective."
As usual, the only way to be wrong in these issues is to be unequivocal. To say there are no objective criteria that a great work must meet is absurd (otherwise you are compelled to admit that a Motorola cell phone ring tone might be as great a work as a Beethoven symphony). On the other hand, there is no objective criteria which will tell you if a Brahms symphony is superior to a Beethoven String Quartet. These arguments go nowhere.
Pfitzner violin sonata. i wanted once to play it by my partner did not want ; ( maybe people think that Pfitzner was just an old nazi or something... ::)a beautiful piece
Quote from: Scarpia on March 14, 2010, 10:42:43 AM
On the other hand, there is no objective criteria which will tell you if a Brahms symphony is superior to a Beethoven String Quartet. These arguments go nowhere.
Au contraire. Demonstration. Beethoven's Opus131 is greater then Brahms's Opus98. Y/N?
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 14, 2010, 09:43:42 AM
Not among Enescu's greatest works, and i don't like Borac's playing too boot (not like there's a whole lot of alternatives).
What problems do you have with her performances?
Quote from: Bulldog on March 14, 2010, 11:38:39 AM
What problems do you have with her performances?
There's no nuisance in her play. All the notes are there but their meaning is somehow missing.
For instance, compare the Bourree from the Second Suite, first as performed by Borac:
http://rapidshare.com/files/363355586/IV._Bourree__Vivement.mp3.html
And then as performed by Cristian Petrescu:
http://rapidshare.com/files/363358173/04_-_Bourree.mp3.html
Petrescu has his own problems of course (a bit too heavy handed in parts), but his playing just makes more sense to me. Borac just wades through the music like a train freight.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 14, 2010, 12:00:27 PM
There's no nuisance in her play. All the notes are there but their meaning is somehow missing.
For instance, compare the Bourree from the Second Suite, first as performed by Borac:
http://rapidshare.com/files/363355586/IV._Bourree__Vivement.mp3.html
And then as performed by Cristian Petrescu:
http://rapidshare.com/files/363358173/04_-_Bourree.mp3.html
Petrescu has his own problems of course (a bit too heavy handed in parts), but his playing just makes more sense to me. Borac just wades through the music like a train freight.
Since I don't feel that "nuance" counts for much in this Bourree, I prefer the quicker and more exciting performance from Borac. However, I wasn't trying to say that Borac plays the suites better or worse than others, simply that I find her performances more than satisfying.
Quote from: Bulldog on March 14, 2010, 01:03:43 PM
Since I don't feel that "nuance" counts for much in this Bourree, I prefer the quicker and more exciting performance from Borac.
Nuance is
everything. Every note is supposed to have a meaning, every rhythmic phrase a context, particularly so with Enescu, even though this piece is rather tame by the composer's standard. What's the point in playing a sheet of music if you don't even make an effort to interpret it correctly?
I think there are many , both compositions and composers that are underrated.
In my country i think Ilmari Hannikainen is little underrated, at least he was (Leevi Madetoja privately expressed some dismisseve views of him).
He is sometimes called a "poor guys rachmaninov" etc..., but in fact his works for solo piano are quite exceptional and wonderfully written for the instrument. He is also a true melodist as well as a harmonist- and very good in extended forms. I prefer his piano works (and him overall as an composer) rather than those of Selim Palmgren, who is usually regarded as the most important piano- composer of that period. Hannikainen wrote practically the only finnish romantic style piano sonata in grand scale, at about 25minutes in length and in four movements.
And then the Chopin TRIO is another work that is little underrated, it is one of his major works perhaps it has suffered from comparison with the chamber works of Schumann and Mendelssohn from which it is quite different but very good in its own right, an early work composed at proximitely at the same time with the trios of Schubert
Few more;
the Bruckner sixth symphony, is very good and melodic. I never understood why the fourth is so famous and this is hardly heard at all, i always liked it alot!!
The operas of Rachmaninov, real gems 8)
Nobody has mentioned "Sad Movies Make Me Cry" sung by Sue Thompson in the early 1960's. A true tear-jerker that demands a revival.
Quote from: abidoful on March 15, 2010, 01:45:38 PM
the Bruckner sixth symphony, is very good and melodic.
This one screams for attention. Superb, tightly-controlled drama in the opening movement and throughout - extremely classical, one of his most radiant codas to end the first movement, one of his finest adagios, quite an interesting scherzo which is by no means lesser to the 5th or 7th, and a finale more satisfying than the one in, say, his 7th. It is a mystery to me why something as utterly esoteric and formally advanced as the 5th could have so much more popular appeal ???
Just venting ;)
Well, I am glad you have got that out of your system.
It was the 5th that got me into Bruckner when I was a late teen. A customer in an LP shop had asked that a movement from the Jochum be played. I had never heard anything like it. Glad to say the customer left the shop while the movement was playing, I left with the discs under my arm.
But I now love all the Bruckner from No 4 on. So, I am with you about the sixth. In fact I think it is time now to give it a spin.
Mike
I'll join you.
I wonder what it was that prompted Mahler to choose this of the symphonies to introduce to the VPO?
Anyway, it was a good choice this morning. The Adagio has a benedictory quality, especially the ending as peace descends. Then the Scherzo gallops into view. Karajan, can it really be 30 years ago that I bought the LP of it? I had it when it was newly issued and now I have the CD. Time passes, faster and faster.
Mike
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 14, 2010, 01:09:44 PM
Nuance is everything. Every note is supposed to have a meaning, every rhythmic phrase a context, particularly so with Enescu, even though this piece is rather tame by the composer's standard. What's the point in playing a sheet of music if you don't even make an effort to interpret it correctly?
Nuance is
nuance. ;D
There are lots of underrated works because no one has enough time to listen and rate everything.
Two symphonies that are almost never performed and deserve to be a scheduling must for every competent symphony orchestra..
Hindemith Symphony in E Flat..and
Wm.Schuman Symphony # 3.
Can't understand the neglect for these wonderfully rendered works.
I'd like for people to list some of their favorite pieces of music that they feel are not performed as often as they should be.Or said in another way some really great pieces that are underrated. For example I think Allan Petterson's Seventh Symphony is a great symphony not performed often enough. Carl Ruggles' Sun Treader another one.
Maybe it would be easier to list overplayed pieces and the rest would be the underplayed. My point is not as facetious as it may seem. I don't think I know enough good underplayed pieces since the old war horses down them out - starting with Puccini operas.
ZB
Hi, catalani. Welcome the forum. :) Some members have already opined on this topic at a couple (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2468.0.html) of other threads (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16287.0.html). You may want to check them out. :)
Quote from: hornteacher on August 03, 2007, 04:53:35 PMit is usually in chamber music where composers make their most innovative artistic statements.
I disagree. Tell this to Mahler or Bruckner and they'll slap the s*** out of you!
I think most Latin American classical music is underrated or better yet neglected. The question is why? These composers' music bare an unmistakable stamp of individuality on it. Are people afraid of taking a risk with music they're unfamiliary with? Also, why is Canada or Australia so neglected?
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 03, 2010, 08:34:20 PM
Also, why is Canada or Australia so neglected?
Because most of their music is post WWII and most of the music of that period is (relatively) neglected?
Why do you neglect US composers? One of my favorite fields of interest, just in the last few weeks I've received magnificent discs of music by Morton Gould and Quincy Porter.
Listening to Harry Partch now BTW.
Quote from: erato on December 03, 2010, 10:40:03 PMWhy do you neglect US composers? One of my favorite fields of interest, just in the last few weeks I've received magnificent discs of music by Morton Gould and Quincy Porter.
I don't neglect American composers, erato. I have many favorite American composers: Bloch, Piston, Copland, Ives, Diamond, Barber, Gerswhin, Bernstein, Thomson, Reich, Adams, Creston, Griffes, McKay, Hovhaness, Schuman, Harris, among others.
Surely, you can't talking to me when you say I neglect American composers? ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 04, 2010, 07:07:59 AM
I don't neglect American composers, erato. I have many favorite American composers: Bloch, Piston, Copland, Ives, Diamond, Barber, Gerswhin, Bernstein, Thomson, Reich, Adams, Creston, Griffes, McKay, Hovhaness, Schuman, Harris, among others.
Surely, you can't talking to me when you say I neglect American composers? ;)
Yeah; I'm talking to you but probably mixing you up with somebody else.....
Bloch American? Surely no more than Stravinsky, Schoenberg or even Hindemith?
Quote from: erato on December 04, 2010, 08:54:24 AM
Yeah; I'm talking to you but probably mixing you up with somebody else.....
Bloch American? Surely no more than Stravinsky, Schoenberg or even Hindemith?
Well, each time I read about Bloch the critic or musicologist or whatever calls him a Swiss-born American. He lived most of his life in the United States (since 1916 I believe). He was born in 1880 and died in Oregon in 1959. I don't think Stravinsky, Schoenberg, or Hindemith lived that long in the States or long enough to have gained the status of an "American" composer.
Bloch is certainly more American than he was Swiss.
I don't think to be an "American" composer, one has to be born in the US or has to quote Shaker hymns in his or her music.
Underrated music? Bruckner String Quintet is quite underrated. Mozart k 499 (expecialy the first movement), Bach Musical Offering (one of the greatest works ever) and many others...
Quote from: laredo on December 27, 2010, 05:32:56 AM
Underrated music? Bruckner String Quintet is quite underrated. Mozart k 499 (expecialy the first movement), Bach Musical Offering (one of the greatest works ever) and many others...
How do you calculate that? Do you mean underrated by yourself? The Bruckner is a student work, interesting but far from great. The other two are very highly thought of by everyone I know. Just curious. :)
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2010, 07:16:27 AM
How do you calculate that? Do you mean underrated by yourself? The Bruckner is a student work...
Gurn, you're probably thinking of Bruckner's String Quartet, which was a student work. The Quintet was written in 1879, between the 5th and 6th Symphonies, I believe.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 27, 2010, 07:34:47 AM
Gurn, you're probably thinking of Bruckner's String Quartet, which was a student work. The Quintet was written in 1979, between the 5th and 6th Symphonies, I believe.
Sarge
It is modern in scope. Only 5 years after I was born! ;D
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 27, 2010, 07:36:29 AM
It is modern in scope. Only 5 years after I was born! ;D
The guy was enchanted. Lived almost forever :D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 27, 2010, 07:34:47 AM
Gurn, you're probably thinking of Bruckner's String Quartet, which was a student work. The Quintet was written in 1979, between the 5th and 6th Symphonies, I believe.
Sarge
No, that's when you got your first recording of it, Sarge... :D No, you're right, I was underrating it myself, since it sounded like a student work to me... great rambling thing... :)
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2010, 07:39:10 AM
No, that's when you got your first recording of it, Sarge... :D No, you're right, I was underrating it myself, since it sounded like a student work to me... great rambling thing... :)
8)
GO wash your mouth out! You are a naughty, naughty, naughty boy.
Mike
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 04, 2007, 02:49:21 AM
Well, of course, I'd always promote certain of Janacek's works. And I'd argue that the finest of his works belong not near the front rank but right at the front rank of the repertoire. But I've argued that enough before... ;D
But, honestly, Socrate is one of 'those' seminal pieces - always described in the most glowing terms when it is described (it is, pretty unequivocally, Satie's masterpiece), and held up by musicians who do know it (like Cage) as a major influence. But outside that small circle, it is never discussed - the fact that you, Sean, (with your extensive listening history) haven't heard it rather bears out my point! Of course Satie's 'musique pauvre' by its very nature will never be pushed into the limelight; it will always be sidelined under by showier, more 'expressive' works (ugh)
Suk"s "Asrael Symphony," another great Czech work; Almendar Maranov's "Piano Concerto;" Joseph Marx's" Autumn" Symphony; and, to repeat my earlier posting, Scriabin/Nemptin's "Mysterium."
I read "underrated" as distinct from "less well known than it deserves to be IMHO." Beethoven's 4th Symphony came first to mind, as a magnificent work fully equal to those surrounding it but which seems unfairly neglected.
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 27, 2010, 08:42:37 AM
I read "underrated" as distinct from "less well known than it deserves to be IMHO." Beethoven's 4th Symphony came first to mind, as a magnificent work fully equal to those surrounding it but which seems unfairly neglected.
This.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 27, 2010, 08:45:08 AM
This.
And add the Eigth to list...it's only fault: bad luck coming between Seven and Nine.
Sarge
Well of Beethoven's less acclaimed symphonies I actually like his 1st the most. I love the last two movements virtually as much as the first two, such great melody. I'm not sure I like the last movement of the 8th or the third movement of the 4th as much.
When asked by his pupil Carl Czerny why the Eighth was less popular than the Seventh, Beethoven is said to have replied, "because the Eighth is so much better."
--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._8_%28Beethoven%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._8_%28Beethoven%29)
D'Indy's Symphony No. 2 (more Mahler than Mahler plus before Mahler, I believe)
Quote from: Philoctetes on December 29, 2010, 09:59:10 AM
D'Indy's Symphony No. 2 (more Mahler than Mahler plus before Mahler, I believe)
That is interesting and intriguing. I will have to check it out. I've only heard some of D'Indy's great chamber music.
A pedant writes
Quote from: schweitzeralan on December 27, 2010, 08:37:30 AM
Almendar Maranov's "Piano Concerto"
Alemdar Karamanov?
QuoteScriabin/Nemtin's "Mysterium."
Prefatory Action rather than Mysterium?
Works by middle of the century non-avangarde American composers such as Peter Mennin, William Schuman, Paul Creston, Walter Piston, Vincent Perishcetti, etc.
Quote from: catalani on November 14, 2010, 01:39:48 PM
I'd like for people to list some of their favorite pieces of music that they feel are not performed as often as they should be.Or said in another way some really great pieces that are underrated. For example I think Allan Petterson's Seventh Symphony is a great symphony not performed often enough. Carl Ruggles' Sun Treader another one.
Hi, catalani, and welcome to the GMG forum!
How about: All the symphonies (except perhaps #2), the tone poems (except for Finlandia), the string quartet, songs, and incidental theatre music of Sibelius? (for starters)
David: the Sibelius SQ? I believe he had 4. The last, "Voces Intimae", at least had been recorded many times, but the earlier 3 are almost absolutely unknown and never played.
Quote from: Taneyev on January 13, 2011, 12:32:50 PM
David: the Sibelius SQ? I believe he had 4. The last, "Voces Intimae", at least had been recorded many times, but the earlier 3 are almost absolutely unknown and never played.
The first three are juvenilia. The only mature quartet is
Voces Intimae and it is underperformed. Even folks who are aware of Sibelius often don't know that he wrote a great quartet.
That's because for every 100 listeners who know some famous composer symphonic works, there are maybe 20 who also listen and know his chamber.
Dag Wiren's Serenade for Strings
1. Steinhammar - Midvinter
2. Rangstrom - Symphonies
3. Sibelius - Snofrid
4. Bruckner - String Quartet
5. Beethoven - Consecration of the House!
1. Steinhammar - Midvinter
- something when I first heard, I knew I'd heard it before, but didn't!
2. Rangstrom - Symphonies
- the whole set can be played on a single night.
3. Sibelius - Snofrid
- strength, courage and resolution.
4. Bruckner - String Quartet
- I wish he'd written as many as his Symphonies.
5. Beethoven - Consecration of the House
- my favourite Beethoven ornament, because of the bassoons, any suggested good versions?
I would say Antichrist and Music of Spheres by Rued Langgaard. Don't even know if his music is played outside of Scandinavia? :(
Quote from: Dunstable on January 19, 2011, 01:55:27 PM
I would say Antichrist and Music of Spheres by Rued Langgaard. Don't even know if his music is played outside of Scandinavia? :(
Are you sure he's played
inside Scandinavia? Never seen him on any Norwegian concert programme. Lot's of stuff on him on this site, though. Just search.....; and welcome, by the way.
Quote from: erato on January 20, 2011, 12:04:48 AM
Are you sure he's played inside Scandinavia? Never seen him on any Norwegian concert programme. Lot's of stuff on him on this site, though. Just search.....; and welcome, by the way.
How sad. :( I have heard his music both in Sweden and Denmark though.
And by the way - thank you ;D
Quote from: Dunstable on January 19, 2011, 01:55:27 PM
I would say Antichrist and Music of Spheres by Rued Langgaard. Don't even know if his music is played outside of Scandinavia? :(
Music of the Spheres was played at last year's Proms, with Dausgaard and the Danish Radio Symphony Orchestra...
Quote from: catalani on November 14, 2010, 01:39:48 PM
I'd like for people to list some of their favorite pieces of music that they feel are not performed as often as they should be.Or said in another way some really great pieces that are underrated. For example I think Allan Petterson's Seventh Symphony is a great symphony not performed often enough. Carl Ruggles' Sun Treader another one.
I'd agree with these two.
Braga Santos: Symphony 4
Lilburn: symphonies 1 and 2
Bax: Symphony 3
Miaskovsky: Symphony 27
Egge: Symphony 1
Goossens: Symphony 1
Tubin: symphonies 2 and 4
Atterberg: Symphony 8
Lo Presti: The Masks
I immediately thought of Elgar's In The South - it's described as an "overture" but in fact it's a substantial tone-poem about Italy. The orchestration is masterly; the "Italian popular song" violin solo at its heart is wonderfully wistful and poignant; and the surging, uplifting final pages are superbly life-affirming. It's perhaps the least-known and least-performed of EE's major orchestral works - maybe because of that totally inappropriate "overture" designation.
Quote from: Klaatu on January 21, 2011, 09:11:37 AM
I immediately thought of Elgar's In The South - it's described as an "overture" but in fact it's a substantial tone-poem about Italy. The orchestration is masterly; the "Italian popular song" violin solo at its heart is wonderfully wistful and poignant; and the surging, uplifting final pages are superbly life-affirming. It's perhaps the least-known and least-performed of EE's major orchestral works - maybe because of that totally inappropriate "overture" designation.
Nice call!
Quote from: Klaatu on January 21, 2011, 09:11:37 AM
I immediately thought of Elgar's In The South - it's described as an "overture" but in fact it's a substantial tone-poem about Italy. The orchestration is masterly; the "Italian popular song" violin solo at its heart is wonderfully wistful and poignant; and the surging, uplifting final pages are superbly life-affirming. It's perhaps the least-known and least-performed of EE's major orchestral works - maybe because of that totally inappropriate "overture" designation.
Recently listened to this work. I agree it is a wonderful piece, but I must say it sounds more British than Italian to my ears.
Quote from: Scarpia on January 21, 2011, 10:37:10 AM
Recently listened to this work. I agree it is a wonderful piece, but I must say it sounds more British than Italian to my ears.
I quite agree - it's an Englishman's rather romantic impressions of Italy (inspired by EE's holidays in Alassio), rather than any attempt to write in an Italian idiom. As such it is distinctly English in sound, apart from that lovely wistful
canto populare.
Just want to add my voice in praise of Elgar's In the South - what a marvellous piece! I have two recordings - one by Barbirolli and the other by Sinopoli, both very good.
That's my favourite Elgar overture, as well (although Cockaigne - the overture - is not half bad, either).
Quote from: Wanderer on January 31, 2011, 08:09:06 AM
That's my favourite Elgar overture, as well (although Cockaigne - the overture - is not half bad, either).
I have listened to it 10 times already today... It's sublimely inspired and I can't get enough of it at the moment. (Which performance(s) do you know?) And yes,
Cockaigne is an exciting piece, too.
Dvorak's symphonic poems. Seriously, listen for ex. Golden spinning wheel, it's magnificent!
Quote from: Jezetha on January 31, 2011, 08:12:58 AM
Which performance(s) do you know?
I have several, but the one I keep returning to is the
VPO/Gardiner.
Quote from: Wanderer on January 31, 2011, 11:41:34 PM
I have several, but the one I keep returning to is the VPO/Gardiner.
Don't know that one, yet. Sinopoli, Barbirolli (historic), Barenboim and Weldon (historic) are the ones I have. They're all good in their own way. But it's the Barbirolli that made me 'hear' the work for the first time, and it's this first love I keep returning to...
Quote from: knight on January 17, 2008, 01:43:07 PM
Luke, I was taken by your suggestion of Satie's Socrate. I have pre-ordered this recording.........
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516xsOowRUL._SS500_.jpg)
No idea when it will arrive. Most of the recordings of the piece are NLA.
Mike
It's two years later but thanks for the suggestion of Satie's Socrate.
Quote from: LaciDeeLeBlanc on August 03, 2007, 01:54:02 PM
Basically self-explanatory. However, please include why you feel the way you do. ;)
Joseph Marx "Autumn Symphony."
http://image.musicimport.biz/sdimages/upc02/034061001003.jpg
Ok, here's another..........
Poor old George Lloyd gets a lot of stick for his anachronistic style. He was over-rated by musical conservatives when he was first "re-discovered" 20 years ago. This has led to him being under-rated now - indeed he's often regarded as a bit of a joke. But I think the Symphonic Mass may be his masterpiece; it's certainly a work of considerable passion and skill, even though it's stylistically about a century behind the times. Built around a plainsong-like "motto theme", this is a big, late-romantic work that sounds contemporary with the Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony or Elgar's Gerontius. It builds to a tremendous climax in the penultimate movement but - unusually for Lloyd - the final movement resolves the Mass in quietude and peace.
The trick with this is to forget the date of composition - just pretend it was composed around 1905-1925, turn up the volume and enjoy a tuneful, colourful choral/orchestral blockbuster!
George Lloyd's 4, 7th and 8th symphonies are all worth revival - I even heard him conduct the 11th in London many years ago.
Ruth Gipps Symphony No 4 is a wonderful score but never performed at all - sad.
Quote from: vandermolen on February 13, 2011, 05:58:56 AM
Ruth Gipps Symphony No 4 is a wonderful score but never performed at all - sad.
I've heard her 2nd Symphony recorded on the Classico series - not any sort of masterpiece but tuneful and enjoyable. I've heard others enthuse about her later symphonies and I'd love to hear them - a job for the English Music Festival and/or Dutton Vocalion!
The Britten Violin Concerto. It's a moving and beautiful work. I think I prefer Ida Haendel's performance (on EMI) to the new one by Janine Jansen on Decca, though I applaud the latter's staunch advocacy of the piece.
Violin concerto by Richard Strauss. I can't believe how he was able to compose such a great work in his youth. I guess one reason why they don't play it more often is because they can't believe 17-18 year old boy could have really composed a great concerto and won't even listen the damn concerto.
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 14, 2011, 01:15:44 PM
The Britten Violin Concerto. It's a moving and beautiful work. I think I prefer Ida Haendel's performance (on EMI) to the new one by Janine Jansen on Decca, though I applaud the latter's staunch advocacy of the piece.
Not Lubotsky/Britten?
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on February 22, 2011, 12:30:32 PM
Not Lubotsky/Britten?
I have just acquired that one. I have listened only the once, which isn't enough. I'll report back in due course...
Quote from: DavidRoss on January 13, 2011, 01:28:23 PM
The first three are juvenilia. The only mature quartet is Voces Intimae and it is underperformed. Even folks who are aware of Sibelius often don't know that he wrote a great quartet.
he did indeed, David... and here it is, in one of its finest recorded performances...
(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Scandinavian/StringAcademy.jpg)
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 22, 2011, 12:33:16 PM
I have just acquired that one. I have listened only the once, which isn't enough. I'll report back in due course...
it's still the recognised standard bearer for this piece... coupled with the Richter piano concerto, it provides for a dynamic and powerful interpretative pairing, indeed!
Quote from: Klaatu on January 21, 2011, 09:11:37 AM
I immediately thought of Elgar's In The South - it's described as an "overture" but in fact it's a substantial tone-poem about Italy. The orchestration is masterly; the "Italian popular song" violin solo at its heart is wonderfully wistful and poignant; and the surging, uplifting final pages are superbly life-affirming. It's perhaps the least-known and least-performed of EE's major orchestral works - maybe because of that totally inappropriate "overture" designation.
Well, Froissart is an "overture" and it's not much played. Actually at least in the US, very little Elgar is played beyond the two string concertos. I'll agree with you about South, however. But I think the most striking and original passage is the highly dissonant section about sx minutes in depicting the ancient Roman ruins.
Etienne Mehul's 4 symphonies, and the overture Le Jeune Henri available on this set would seem to fit this topic:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_S2YlWGdmEo0/SP8iAP_D_1I/AAAAAAAABzg/gJbjJcHcgFo/s320/folder+%5B800x600%5D.jpg)
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 17, 2011, 05:48:21 AM
Well, Froissart is an "overture" and it's not much played. Actually at least in the US, very little Elgar is played beyond the two string concertos. I'll agree with you about South, however. But I think the most striking and original passage is the highly dissonant section about sx minutes in depicting the ancient Roman ruins.
Yes, that's very original, I agree. Harsh and uncompromising. There is a late echo (to my ears) in the opening of his Third Symphony, as finished by Payne.
Quote from: Cato on April 17, 2011, 06:22:42 AM
Etienne Mehul's 4 symphonies, and the overture Le Jeune Henri available on this set would seem to fit this topic:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_S2YlWGdmEo0/SP8iAP_D_1I/AAAAAAAABzg/gJbjJcHcgFo/s320/folder+%5B800x600%5D.jpg)
Personally, I think the first two symphonies are stronger than the third and fourth, and the overture is rather average... I think they are underrated only in the sense that hardly anyone knows about them today when perhaps they should, but Mozart or Haydn, they certainly ain't.. ::)
Quote from: Jared on April 17, 2011, 12:15:14 PM
Personally, I think the first two symphonies are stronger than the third and fourth, and the overture is rather average... I think they are underrated only in the sense that hardly anyone knows about them today when perhaps they should, but Mozart or Haydn, they certainly ain't.. ::)
Agreed: the
Second Symphony is the best of the four. And the overture is great fun! 8)
The question is: are they great underrated works? I believe so. Are they
Mozart or
Haydn? A different question, and not undebatable.
Quote from: Elnimio on January 13, 2011, 11:58:06 AM
Works by middle of the century non-avangarde American composers such as Peter Mennin, William Schuman, Paul Creston, Walter Piston, Vincent Perishcetti, etc.
The almost willful neglect of so much great mid-20th Century American music by American orchestras is rather disheartening.
Hello, I'm new here. Thanks to Haydnfan for recommending it to me.
WF Bach Sinfonie in D minor(Adagio and Fugue for orchestra) There is something so haunting and catchy about this one, its dead simple in the beginning and then breaks out into a wild fugue with classical elements.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMpgEmTPT7A
Oh that is beautiful. For some reason I've never head WF Bach's music before. Seems silly, he is obviously a gifted musician if his father's trio sonatas were meant for him as practice. :D
Just about anything by Déodat de Séverac.
Sample here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WE0ySTLDgpwJ:www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dm0d4qNXnCFM+Debussy+Deodat+de+Severac&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.ca