GMG Classical Music Forum

Unfortunately world events are making an effect on the classical scene.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/01/russian-conductor-gergiev-fired-munich-putin/

Gergiev has been removed from his upcoming Munich, Rotterdam, Verbier, and La Scala work as well as a Vienna Philharmonic tour of the USA. Verbier asked for his resignation and received it; Munich fired him outright after asking him to denounce the current war. He refused to reply.

The NY Metropolitan Opera has said they won't maintain relations with any pro-Russian state artists; that may possibly include future Bolshoi Ballet collaborations and Anna Netrebko, although for now it's intentionally vague. Bolshoi performances in London have been cancelled.

I can only assume Valentina Lisitsa is blacklisted everywhere already. Denis Matsuev was meant to tour with Gergiev and his Carnegie Hall appearances have been dropped.

I have more than a few of Gergiev's recordings.  Some are meh, some are good, but the only extra special one in my list is the Shostakovich 4 he did for what was still Philips, with the combined Rotterdam/Kirov (as it was still known then) orchestras.

Good. These artists should be denounced for showing favoritism for a murdering batshit crazy dictator.

The wry irony is that he participated in a documentary about Shostakovich, whom it pained so deeply to be associated with the murdering autocrats.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 01, 2022, 05:49:59 PM
The wry irony is that he participated in a documentary about Shostakovich, whom it pained so deeply to be associated with the murdering autocrats.

Indeed and, in my mind, Shostakovich was one of the greatest Russians of them all! Not only for his music, but his learning how to write what he wanted under such an oppressed system.

Gergiev is a scumbag. He gets what he deserves and so should every Russian conductor / performer / singer who doesn't speak out loud against the war crimes of Putin and his minions. Enough is enough.

Our orchestra music director, Daniel Raiskin, vehemently denounced Putin and Russia for going to war with Ukraine.

I'm very glad he did, but I wasn't surprised. I knew he would. He is a man of integrity.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 01, 2022, 05:49:59 PM
The wry irony is that he participated in a documentary about Shostakovich, whom it pained so deeply to be associated with the murdering autocrats.

Further irony is how Russians stood their ground defending their homeland against an unjust military invasion from another powerful army.  They stood defiantly and suffered tremendous losses (562,000 civilian deaths over the course of a three-year siege) and would not surrender. 

Quote from: relm1 on March 02, 2022, 05:36:40 AM
Further irony is how Russians stood their ground defending their homeland against an unjust military invasion from another powerful army.  They stood defiantly and suffered tremendous losses (562,000 civilian deaths over the course of a three-year siege) and would not surrender. 

Exactly.

Time for me to hunt down another 'Nutcracker'

Quote from: relm1 on March 02, 2022, 05:36:40 AM
Further irony is how Russians stood their ground defending their homeland against an unjust military invasion from another powerful army.  They stood defiantly and suffered tremendous losses (562,000 civilian deaths over the course of a three-year siege) and would not surrender.

It must be said, though, that the USSR at the time was very far from being an innocent victim. Two years before the German invasion the Hitler-Stalin pact enabled the latter to: (1) attack and carve up Poland in conjunction with Nazi Germany, perpetrating the Katyn massacre in the process , (2) attack and annex the Baltic States, (3) attack Finland and (4) carve up Romania. Besides, cooperation between USSR and Nazi Germany, including at military level, started many years before. And according to Viktor Suvorov's well documented book M-Day, on June 22, 1941 Hitler simply forestalled an impending Soviet attack.

(Suvorov, an ex-Soviet spy who was sentenced to death in the USSR for defecting to the West, has a whole series of books on the history of the USSR and WW2, all well-worth reading.)

Quote from: Brian on March 01, 2022, 05:05:53 PM
Gergiev has been removed from his upcoming Munich, Rotterdam, Verbier, and La Scala work as well as a Vienna Philharmonic tour of the USA. Verbier asked for his resignation and received it; Munich fired him outright after asking him to denounce the current war. He refused to reply.

I can just imagine Putin in his situation room, as a subordinate timidly knocks on the door and enters.

"Your excellency, Gergiev has been sacked, again.

Putin, wailing in tearful anguish, "What have I done?!?!"

Will the record labels follow suit?  Oh, pity poor record critic Huntley Dent (AKA Santa Fe Listener).  He's a HUGE Gergiev fanboi. 

Quote from: Daverz on March 02, 2022, 10:54:07 AM
Will the record labels follow suit?  Oh, pity poor record critic Huntley Dent (AKA Santa Fe Listener).  He's a HUGE Gergiev fanboi.

I don't know, but his name still sounds like a name if you reverse it: Dentley Hunt.

As a person who's lived in both of the countries currently at war, I'm going to throw in a dissenting note.

Is it really a good idea for ensembles to sack someone because he failed to express an opinion that was demanded of him? This strikes me as contrary to the principles we are supposed to uphold, here in the so-called free world.

Consider a hypothetical. If any prominent American musicians had supported W. Bush's illegal and unjust invasion of Iraq (a war which has a lot of parallels with the present one), would any ensembles that employed them have an obligation to fire them?

Somebody mentioned Shostakovich upthread. Many people here enjoy the work of Soviet-era musicians. Many of these musicians were required to sign denunciations, affirmations, and so on, by the Soviet government. Most of them did so, because they understood that the consequences of not signing might be dire. Shostakovich was one of them. Are you really going to throw out your DSCH recordings because of this?

(for what it's worth, I have no Gergiev recordings, and I've only heard him live once)

Quote from: Daverz on March 02, 2022, 10:54:07 AM
Will the record labels follow suit?  Oh, pity poor record critic Huntley Dent (AKA Santa Fe Listener).  He's a HUGE Gergiev fanboi.

Screw that guy!

Firstly, I'm unaffected because I own no Gergiev recordings. Read his rapturous press coverage in NYT and elsewhere back in the '90s, but saw Gergiev conduct live a couple of times (high energy but really sloppy) and concluded that he was either spreading himself too thin or benefiting from an adept PR agent.

I agree that "blacklisting" Russian artists is debatable. But IMO if one's been taking dirty money (and I'm sure Gergiev has been well-compensated for regime support), tough s**t.

Well, there's this, from this article:

https://datebook.sfchronicle.com/music/for-musical-artists-aligned-with-putin-the-ukraine-invasion-brings-a-reckoning (https://datebook.sfchronicle.com/music/for-musical-artists-aligned-with-putin-the-ukraine-invasion-brings-a-reckoning)

Quote
What is happening here represents just the latest, though perhaps the most glaring, iteration of an age-old conundrum. What expectations do we have — should we have — for artists and other ostensibly nonpolitical actors in a time of crisis? Is it incumbent on literally everyone to declare their allegiances?

The problem with that framing, though, is that sitting on the sidelines is also a choice. Silence in the face of injustice represents an acquiescence to that injustice.

To claim, as many do, that art should "transcend" politics — that it exists in a realm where the push and pull of human conflict have no relevance — represents an impoverished view of both politics and art. To the extent that art has any bearing on the world, it's necessarily political.

(Soprano Anna) Netrebko posted a series of statements on her Instagram account, voicing opposition to the war but adding, "forcing artists, or any public figure, to voice their political opinions in public and to denounce their homeland is not right. ... Like many of my colleagues, I am not a political person."

(Pianist Igor) Levit's reply, which named no one but left no doubt about the target, was swift and merciless.

"Being a musician does not free you from being a citizen, from taking responsibility, from being a grown up," he wrote, before adding, "And never, never bring up music and your being a musician as an excuse. Do not insult art."

There will be consequences for all of them, but nothing on the scale of what has befallen Gergiev. For years, he reaped the benefits of his political partnership with Putin. Now that the bill has come due, it will be hard for him to claim he didn't know what he had signed on to

Conductor Vasily Petrenko decided not to perform in his home country (Russia) « until peace has been restored »:  https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-60589271 (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-60589271). Way to go !

The point is, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Going back in time, a conductor active in Germany before September 1939 could well have you believe he was 'apolitical', but after the invasion of Poland, that term can't apply in any way to any person choosing to pursue activities as if nothing had happened.

Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 02, 2022, 06:40:01 AM
Time for me to hunt down another 'Nutcracker'

One of the rare occasions in which the imprint recording didn't remain my favorite concerns this ballet. Back in the '70's, Antal Dorati recorded The Nutcracker with the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra for Philips, and it's remained my favorite ever since.

Quote from: LKB on March 02, 2022, 05:13:45 PM
One of the rare occasions in which the imprint recording didn't remain my favorite concerns this ballet. Back in the '70's, Antal Dorati recorded The Nutcracker with the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra for Philips, and it's remained my favorite ever since.

That might be what I look for, as I love Dorati and RCO recording of The Sleeping Beauty.

I'm not going to throw out my Gergiev recordings as I'm someone who can separate an artist from their personal beliefs/thoughts. Of course, I think Gergiev is one of the most overrated conductors alive. I like his earlier work in his Kirov days like the recording of Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky and Scythian Suite. I also think highly of his Tchaikovsky ballet recordings. His Shostakovich has never done much for me and his Stravinsky is decent, but overall, I could live without any of his recordings as I don't view them as essential or, at least, essential to my own collection.

The only exceptionally good recording I remember hearing from Gergiev is a recording of Szymanowski's Third and Fourth Symphonies with Denis Matsuev. Perhaps an amusing irony that two artists sponsored by one of the world's most homophobic regimes did some of their best work with the music of an openly gay composer.

Artists, in general, are dependent on the ruling classes for patronage, and this often means compromising any personal principles or beliefs, since no one who can afford to pay for the arts has clean hands. As an artist, one can therefore choose (1) to take a completely mercenary attitude, accepting funding from anyone (even if this person may be e.g. the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia) and then immediately jumping ship to another sponsor as soon as something happens (e.g. he is accused of war crimes in Yemen), while being aware that this gives you a reputation for unreliability; (2) take an attitude of loyalty to your chosen sponsor, and gamble that whenever they do something reprehensible, most people will forget about it within a year or two and you'll be back to normal, while being aware that you'll alienate some people permanently; or (3) have principles, and therefore have no artistic career whatsoever, except perhaps as an underground figure who may eventually be rediscovered posthumously by enthusiasts.

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 02, 2022, 12:23:11 PM
Consider a hypothetical. If any prominent American musicians had supported W. Bush's illegal and unjust invasion of Iraq (a war which has a lot of parallels with the present one), would any ensembles that employed them have an obligation to fire them?

Somebody mentioned Shostakovich upthread. Many people here enjoy the work of Soviet-era musicians. Many of these musicians were required to sign denunciations, affirmations, and so on, by the Soviet government. Most of them did so, because they understood that the consequences of not signing might be dire. Shostakovich was one of them. Are you really going to throw out your DSCH recordings because of this?

While you engage in hypotheticals and false equivalencies, the Russian army shells Ukrainian cities, kills and maims civilians, causes a huge wave of refugees and the scelerate Russian dictator Putin and his no less scelerate minion Lavrov threaten the whole word with nuclear war.

Quote from: André on March 02, 2022, 01:29:03 PM
Conductor Vasily Petrenko decided not to perform in his home country (Russia) « until peace has been restored »:  https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-60589271 (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-60589271). Way to go !

Yes, way to go!

I am reminded of what Fritz Busch answered when Goebbels sent him a letter inviting him to return to Germany: I will gladly return the day Hitler and his minions, you included, will be hanged.

As for Netrebko complaining about being forced to denounce "her homeland", she proves she cannot or will not make the difference between a nation and its temporary government.  The scelerate Putin is no more representative of Russian homeland than the scelerate Hitler was of German fatherland. And corroborating this with the fact that hundreds of Russians (including children) are arrested daily for protesting against the regime of the scelerate Putin her stance is all the more disgusting.

Elderly woman arrested in Russian anti-war protest

'What sort of government is scared of a little old lady holding placards?'

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-elderly-woman-anti-war-protest-b2027436.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-elderly-woman-anti-war-protest-b2027436.html)

Scroll down for the video.

I guess she was forced to denounce her homeland. Shame on you, Anna Netrebko, shame on you!

Quote from: Florestan on March 03, 2022, 12:19:14 AM
While you engage in hypotheticals and false equivalencies, the Russian army shells Ukrainian cities, kills and maims civilians, causes a huge wave of refugees and the scelerate Russian dictator Putin and his no less scelerate minion Lavrov threaten the whole word with nuclear war.

I don't need you to tell me what's going on in Ukraine. I know because I have contacts living there, people I've known for ages. I hear directly from them, including a guy now sleeping in the Kiev Metro because it's not safe to be above ground. War hysteria is bad for everyone. Please cool it with the moral grandstanding.

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 03, 2022, 10:17:44 AM
War hysteria is bad for everyone.

Tell that to the scelerate Putin and his no less scelerate minions.

Quote from: Brian on March 01, 2022, 05:05:53 PM
Unfortunately world events are making an effect on the classical scene.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/01/russian-conductor-gergiev-fired-munich-putin/

Gergiev has been removed from his upcoming Munich, Rotterdam, Verbier, and La Scala work as well as a Vienna Philharmonic tour of the USA. Verbier asked for his resignation and received it; Munich fired him outright after asking him to denounce the current war. He refused to reply.

The NY Metropolitan Opera has said they won't maintain relations with any pro-Russian state artists; that may possibly include future Bolshoi Ballet collaborations and Anna Netrebko, although for now it's intentionally vague. Bolshoi performances in London have been cancelled.

I can only assume Valentina Lisitsa is blacklisted everywhere already. Denis Matsuev was meant to tour with Gergiev and his Carnegie Hall appearances have been dropped.

Anna Netrebko is out of the MET:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/03/arts/music/anna-netrebko-met-opera-ukraine.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/03/arts/music/anna-netrebko-met-opera-ukraine.html)

I found this particular blurb interesting:

"It is a great artistic loss for the Met and for opera," Peter Gelb, the company's general manager, said in a statement. "Anna is one of the greatest singers in Met history, but with Putin killing innocent victims in Ukraine there was no way forward."

I think they made a wise decision as I can't stand Netrebko and find her, like Gergiev, extremely overrated. I don't understand all the compliments these artists are getting as if they're somehow irreplaceable.

Much of it is, l suspect, marketing.

We're apparently starting to more-or-less emerge from the pandemic, and for two years  the arts in general have suffered around the world. So now, everyone is going to be fighting to get audiences back in their venues. If you can get a leading singer, marketing him/her as a living legend might get you a few seats which would otherwise be sold next door.

A lot of cultural events in Russia are being cancelled too; even on a purely practical level (flights, payments etc.), things are getting much more difficult to organize. Here are some:

- some classical concerts in Moscow, including with Gerstein, Ades, Bronfman, Eschenbach, Herreweghe, Pavel Kogan, etc.: https://meloman.ru/changes/

- rock concerts: https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/artists-canceled-russia-concerts-list-1235037371/

It's worth mentioning though, that the boycotts are mainly Western initiatives; as regards the rest of the world, the situation is much less strict, and for example, some limited imports of some Western goods etc. are likely to continue via some of the neighbouring countries.

At least before the Duma laws today that gives imprisonment of up to 15 years for critical voices about the war or supporting sanctions, about 10,000 Russian artists and performers had signed at protest against the war. They include Petrenko and Bychkov. You don't reach 10,000 that quickly without a lot of uproar in society about the war.
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/28/1083496491/russian-performers-speak-out-putin-ukraine

Wasn't it Gergiev where rumors were he let his assistant do all the conducting and practicing at rehearsals, and he only showed up for the concerts and recordings?

Quote from: hvbias on March 04, 2022, 08:56:57 AM
Wasn't it Gergiev where rumors were he let his assistant do all the conducting and practicing at rehearsals, and he only showed up for the concerts and recordings?

I've heard the same story from an industry person. I'm not sure I believe it at face value. That's what assistant conductors are for, although perhaps he abuses the practice.

Quote from: Spotted Horses on March 04, 2022, 09:11:59 AM
I've heard the same story from an industry person. I'm not sure I believe it at face value. That's what assistant conductors are for, although perhaps he abuses the practice.

No doubt, also invaluable as centuries long practice of mentorships with getting experience. That's what I meant about Gergiev near exclusively or exclusively doing this, he has also always struck me as the "celebrity" type; not that there is anything wrong with that if you're a great musician, but Gergiev...

Quote from: hvbias on March 04, 2022, 08:56:57 AM
Wasn't it Gergiev where rumors were he let his assistant do all the conducting and practicing at rehearsals, and he only showed up for the concerts and recordings?

That's practically all music directors nowadays, to be honest. It would probably be more exceptional for a music director or a soloist to actually show up to rehearsals prior to the dress rehearsal—assistant conductors handle most of that.

(This is at least true for A/AA/AAA orchestras, in American parlance.)

And the Lucerne Festival joins the chorus:

Performances by the Lucerne Festival Orchestra and the Budapest Festival Orchestra will take the place of the two concerts by the Mariinsky Orchestra and Valery Gergiev on 21 and 22 August, respectively.

Lucerne Festival has cancelled the appearance by Denis Matsuev.

Lucerne, 5 March 2022. As a result of Lucerne Festival's cancellation of the two concerts by the Mariinsky Orchestra and Valery Gergiev, the Lucerne Festival Orchestra and the Budapest Festival Orchestra with Iván Fischer will each perform an additional concert at the Summer Festival. Details of the Lucerne Festival Orchestra's additional program on 21 August will be announced at a later date. On 22 August, the Budapest Festival Orchestra will appear in an all-Beethoven program with the soloist Daniil Trifonov, who had been originally scheduled for that evening. They will perform the Coriolan Overture, the Fourth Piano Concerto, and the Symphony No. 3 in E-flat major (Eroica).

There will additionally be a change of artist for the Lucerne Festival Orchestra's concert with Riccardo Chailly on 13 August. The Russian pianist Denis Matsuev will not perform. During recent years, he has actively supported the politics of Vladimir Putin. "We condemn the attack on Ukraine in the strongest possible terms," explains Executive and Artistic Director Michael Haefliger. "Denis Matsuev has not distanced himself from Vladimir Putin and the Russian government with respect to the current situation. In view of the political position he has taken in the past, this would have been absolutely mandatory." Haefliger adds: "It is important to emphasize that Russian artists will continue to perform at Lucerne Festival provided they do not support the current Russian regime. We do not prejudge anyone." The soloist who will appear in his place  will be announced at a later date

--Bruce

Strange that people just now waking up on Gergiev. A person who conducted in Syria and supported the "traditional family values". 

it was about the union of a man and a woman.

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 02, 2022, 12:23:11 PM
Is it really a good idea for ensembles to sack someone because he failed to express an opinion that was demanded of him? This strikes me as contrary to the principles we are supposed to uphold, here in the so-called free world.

Consider a hypothetical. If any prominent American musicians had supported W. Bush's illegal and unjust invasion of Iraq (a war which has a lot of parallels with the present one), would any ensembles that employed them have an obligation to fire them?

People have responded to you here as if you are an evil Putin fan, with accusations and colorful language, but obviously your question is more philosophical. And it deserves to be answered respectfully.

A more philosophical answer would probably encompass a number of points:
(a) the changing world of media, especially the internet/social media, and its effect on the role of celebrities in society today compared to past decades;
(b) the perception that this is a moral issue with only one "correct" position (i.e. the absence of reasonable disagreement);
(c) the implicit consent which a person gives, when becoming a public figure, to certain responsibilities/obligations expected of a public figure;
(d) the fact that these Russian artists have gained professionally from their association with Putin.

There are certainly some past examples we could discuss. One of them is W. Bush's illegal and unjust invasion of Iraq, because as you remember, the Dixie Chicks band spoke out against that war and had their careers nearly obliterated - they went from a headliner act to box-office poison. This complicates point (b) above, because it is a reminder that "correct" moral positions often aren't. In the United States support for the Iraq war never reached consensus, and often was a sharply divided issue, but shortly after the invasion actually began, polls found that more than 70% of Americans supported it.

Now, I don't think that's a great example, because it is so unlikely that we today will ever decide that actually, Putin was right, or that we will ever believe a million Ukrainians do deserve to be refugees.

I have a little bit of experience with (c) as someone who has recently become a local news media figure in my city. Mostly, I just have to be careful never to say anything really stupid. But the appearance of some public leadership absolutely requires that I speak out occasionally on matters of importance. The question is, where's the line? What's enough? There are a whole lot of injustices in the world and nobody can possibly issue statements on all of them. There also aren't really any rules or Miss Manners etiquette books on how to be famous.

Personally, I try to restrict my "public speaker obligations" to issues in my field (food) and my region (Texas) and don't bother with the rest. In the case of Gergiev, Matsuev, and Netrebko, the war does not have a direct effect on music, but it does have relevance because they all sought out personal friendships with the guy who started the war. Netrebko even once said in an interview that she wished she could have had a romance with the young Putin. They have also gained professionally from their association with Putin. So Putin's actions are directly relevant to their careers.

So let's revisit your hypothetical. What if a prominent American musician supported W. Bush's war in Iraq, and also was best friends with W. Bush, and also received awards and monetary benefits from their association with W. Bush, and also had a majority of their working gigs outside the United States?

Quote from: Brian on March 05, 2022, 08:39:06 AM
What if a prominent American musician supported W. Bush's war in Iraq, and also was best friends with W. Bush, and also received awards and monetary benefits from their association with W. Bush, and also had a majority of their working gigs outside the United States?

Name one such American musician, please.

Quote from: Brian on March 05, 2022, 08:39:06 AM
So let's revisit your hypothetical. What if a prominent American musician supported W. Bush's war in Iraq, and also was best friends with W. Bush, and also received awards and monetary benefits from their association with W. Bush, and also had a majority of their working gigs outside the United States?

You've raised a lot of interesting questions; I'll just deal with this one for now.

On a personal level, it would depend on how much I liked his music. I'm well aware that artists can be human train wrecks, misguided, delusional etc., just like anyone else. Look, I have friends and relatives with whom I often disagree severely on certain matters (such as W's war on Iraq). I'm not going to cut them off because of that.

On a professional level, your third point (awards and monetary benefits) complicates things. Somebody upthread brought up the subject of "dirty money." If there was legally actionable stuff going on, that might be an issue.

Back to the personal level, I've gotta go now because I'm joining a group of Russian, Belarusian and Ukrainian friends and colleagues for dinner at somebody's house, after which we're going to watch the Criterion Collection DVD of La Dolce Vita. Just another day in America's most Slavic metro area.

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 05, 2022, 12:52:35 PM
(...)
Back to the personal level, I've gotta go now because I'm joining a group of Russian, Belarusian and Ukrainian friends and colleagues for dinner at somebody's house, after which we're going to watch the Criterion Collection DVD of La Dolce Vita. Just another day in America's most Slavic metro area.

That's interesting.

Quote from: Florestan on March 05, 2022, 10:59:24 AM
Name one such American musician, please.

Yes, that is my point (that there are few or none such).  :)

I read Brian's longer post to Archaic Torso of Apollo with great interest. I didn't support Bush's invasion of Iraq nor do I obviously support what Putin has done. Both men are wrong and, perhaps not in this life, but both men will pay for what they have done.

Quote from: Yabetz on March 05, 2022, 07:51:38 PM
No, it isn't. It's very much like the anti-German hysteria during World War I.

No. In World War I, at least in America, anti-German sentiment went against all German people everywhere, not just against the Kaiser and his minions. It went so far that most Americans of German descent actively buried their heritages. A German immigrant in Chicago was lynched by a mob. Other Germans were thrown in prison or labor camps because of their identity. Libraries banned or burned German books. At the time, 25% of American students studied in German in school because German was our second-most spoken language. But during the war, almost every German class was permanently cancelled.

To this day, 100 years later, the country has almost no German restaurants, most of them very old fashioned. German is an unpopular school class, too; it's beaten by Spanish, French, Mandarin, and ASL. German culture was essentially permanently cleansed from American society and Germans forced to become "normal" Anglo white people.

Absolutely nothing like that is happening today. Russian books are not being burned. Russian people are not being murdered. On the contrary, I have seen an outpouring of sympathy for ordinary Russian Americans, most of whom are here because they chose to leave Russia. The only documented incident I have heard of is a local Russian grocery here in Texas that removed "Russian" from its sign after getting a threatening phone call. Sad? Yes. Similar to 1917? No way.

Gergiev has been an official personal representative of the Russian President during presidential elections since at least 2012. He's supported all major international acts that were condemned by the West. And now people are outraged? What about the European music industry that supported him up until now, musicians that played under him?

I absolutely agree. But, unfortunately, the political beliefs in Gergiev's case have been homophobia and war for the past decade or so. 

Quote from: Yabetz on March 06, 2022, 06:38:46 AM
Plus I've read that some ensembles are cancelling performances of Russian composers who have nothing at all to do with the current situation. Even poor little Russian cats are being banned from cat shows. It's silly.

I have not heard/read any such news stories (although I did once watch a documentary about Canadian cat shows so I know they are a real thing) but yes, if Tchaikovsky or Russian Blue cats are being canceled, that would be stupid, I agree.

As mentioned repeatedly above, Gergiev is active in Russian politics and government and has personally benefited with awards, appointments, etc. from his political connections. That makes him very different from a cat.

Quote from: Yabetz on March 06, 2022, 10:18:42 AM
Well if that goes against your beliefs, don't listen to him. But saying nobody else can or should listen to what you determine is the work of a war-loving "homophobe" is no less authoritarian in approach than Putin.

I don't have an issue with people listening to him at all, because it is a personal choice. I just think that the reaction against him is a bit late.

Quote from: Artem on March 06, 2022, 11:53:17 AM
I don't have an issue with people listening to him at all, because it is a personal choice. I just think that the reaction against him is a bit late.

Better late than never.

Quote from: Yabetz on March 06, 2022, 10:39:01 AM
So where do you stop? If ultra-conservative Republicans are elected in a massive "red wave" in the US come November, would their followers be justified in rooting out every prominent person who holds to center-left beliefs? Was the blacklisting of suspected (or maybe actual, in some cases) communists in 1950s Hollywood justified? There were Stalin apologists in the US up until Stalin's death and even some now. Was their persecution justified?

I don't understand the question.

I guess what you are saying is that there is a slippery slope between "punish supporters of a violent, murderous dictator" and "punish holders of any political opinion"?

Quote from: Yabetz on March 06, 2022, 03:53:57 PM
Exactly. I remember Trump being regarded a dictator too. Why not target his supporters?

I guess my answer would be that if we are concerned about a slippery slope, a standard comes in handy. Putin has now been here for 20 years. He's actually started two previous wars invading Ukraine and Georgia, and nobody called on Gergiev to condemn those. The entire world's tipping point was, apparently, an unprovoked war of conquest, built on blatant lies, deliberately targeting civilian populations for death.

It seems to me that restraint was applied in the case of this serial warmonger. You might be the only person who has argued that the standard for shunning his allies was met too soon, rather than too late.

Also, you're still, after repeated explanations, missing the distinction between a supporter and an active party.

Quote from: Yabetz on March 06, 2022, 05:18:53 PM
To many there's no difference. To support is to be an active participant. If I'm not mistaken neither Gergiev nor Netrebko are government officials responsible for carrying out policy.

But they've publicly and purposefully supported the Putin regime's actions in the past.
Granted, Netrebko's support was not as flamboyant as Gergiev, and she tried to straddle the fence, which he hasn't.

Meanwhile...
https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2022/mar/07/impossible-bolshoi-music-director-tugan-sokhiev-quits-over-calls-to-denounce-ukraine-invasion

Quote from: Yabetz on March 06, 2022, 03:53:57 PM
Exactly. I remember Trump being regarded a dictator too. Why not target his supporters?

I do not know any serious person who regarded Trump as a "dictator." He openly expressed admiration for ruthless dictators such as Kim Jong-Un and Putin, and perhaps he aspired to be a fascist dictator of sorts, but he was still constrained by Democracy and his own ineptness. But it wouldn't suprise me to learn that performers who blatantly supported his attempt to subvert the election through violence and fraud would find many profession opportunities closed to them. There is nothing new about this. The Dixie Chicks had their careers more or less destroyed when they express political opinions vehemently opposed to George W. Bush's intervention in Iraq. That would have made them heroes in some circles, but not in country music.

I have often heard it said that Gergiev was a an active supporter of Putin, but this is hearsay to me. I have never read any direct political statement of Gergiev. I have heard the unsubstantiated rumor (from industry people) that he is a musical fraud and that he has no involvement in his musical performances except to show up at the concert and wave the baton. I'm not sure that would make a huge difference to me if I liked the performances. If he was a performer of great importance to me I would have to do some due diligence to decide whether his political activities are offensive enough to personally boycott him. I boycott him out of indifference. I assume that the organizations which have fired him have done so mainly because they think their audience expects them to do so, and they don't want to have angry demonstrations at their concerts.

It's fairly easy to find material regarding Gergiev's political views and previous 'politicization of music'. This surely didn't take long:

2022 - no comments on Russia-Ukraine war

2016 - Palmyra propaganda concert, after bombings; Putin on video link https://www.classicfm.com/music-news/valery-gergiev-palmyra-syria-concert/

2014 - backs Crimea annexation https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/la-xpm-2014-mar-12-la-et-cm-putin-ukraine-crimea-valery-gergiev-20140312-story.html

2013 - controversies regarding Russian anti-gay laws https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/nov/06/russian-conductor-antigay-london-symphony

2012 - appears in pro-Putin commercial https://www.wqxr.org/story/190227-valery-gergiev-appears-putin-campaign-commercial

2008 - South Ossetia propaganda concert https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/aug/21/georgia.russia2

Also: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/valery-gergiev-and-the-nightmare-of-music-under-putin

etc. He has been a stern supporter of all of Putin's previous invasions/wars.

Quote from: Yabetz on March 06, 2022, 06:38:46 AM
Do you want to hurt Putin? Stop buying Russian oil.

And Russian gas. I doubt we'll ever see such a move, though.

The Bolshoi Theatre's music director and principal conductor Tugan Sokhiev has announced his resignation, saying he felt under pressure due to calls to take a position on the war in Ukraine.

On Tuesday, star conductor Valery Gergiev, a Kremlin loyalist, was stripped of his role at the Munich Philharmonic for failing to denounce Russia's actions.
Sokhiev comes from the same North Ossetia region of Russia as Gergiev and is considered to be his protege.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pressed-on-ukraine-war-bolshoi-conductor-tugan-sokhiev-resigns/ar-AAUHqRE?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pressed-on-ukraine-war-bolshoi-conductor-tugan-sokhiev-resigns/ar-AAUHqRE?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531)

Quote from: Yabetz on March 07, 2022, 12:51:58 AM
Which was also wrong. What's your point?

My point is only that any entertainer who make a strong political point risks alienating their audience.

Personally I respect the Dixie Chicks for following their consciences regarding the Iraq war. It cost them financially, they lost part of their audience, and they had to endure years of death threats and abuse. They accepted the consequences and found a new way forward.

Gergiev, apparently, was an active booster of Putin, including his most despicable acts, and accepted support and patronage from Putin and his government. If you think Gergiev doesn't deserve to be shunned it can only be because you think his support of Putin is noble and worthy of respect. He cast his lot with Putin, so he will have to make a new way, which will mean retreating to the Marinsky Theater and limiting his activities to Putin's pariah nation.

I don't think Russian performers in general deserve the same treatment if they have not been active in politics.

Well, this is a new one: Delos Productions just sent out an email announcing a new CD with Olga Kern, and it starts with a letter from Kern about the war and her Ukrainian heritage, and then goes straight into PR for the new CD.

"Please stop this madness! Please say NO to war!

- Olga"

followed immediately by album artwork, press materials, a free track download, and the link to request a free promo CD.  ???

It seems clear that your project in this thread is to make "support for Putin's invasion of Ukraine" out to be merely an unpopular political opinion. The content or meaning or moral underpinning of the opinion does not matter to you, so long as it is unpopular, which is why, right now, you're making a direct comparison between people punished for supporting mass violence, and people punished for opposing it.

I assume, since your interest is in supporting free expression of all manner of unpopular opinions, that you are neutral on the opinions themselves.

The problem is that there can be a slippery slope in both directions. You have repeatedly pressed the point that punishing someone for their views is a slippery slope, because one moment we may be punishing people who support violent wars of invasion, and the next moment we may be punishing people who, say, belong to a minority political party. But you have not addressed the other slippery slope, that if we do not condemn wars of invasion, there's no use in ever condemning anything, and we might as well allow free expression to include hate speech, advocacy for mass murder, etc.

Quote from: Yabetz on March 07, 2022, 01:40:29 PM
I can condemn a war of invasion without demanding that anyone be fired, blacklisted, censored or silenced...

Good, now perhaps read up on the artist in question's active involvement in propaganda campaigns, political advertising, acceptance of jobs in occupied territories, acceptance of awards and career assistance from the invader, etc.

Quote from: MusicTurner on March 06, 2022, 10:06:07 PM
It's fairly easy to find material regarding Gergiev's political views and previous 'politicization of music'. This surely didn't take long:

2022 - no comments on Russia-Ukraine war

2016 - Palmyra propaganda concert, after bombings; Putin on video link https://www.classicfm.com/music-news/valery-gergiev-palmyra-syria-concert/

2014 - backs Crimea annexation https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/la-xpm-2014-mar-12-la-et-cm-putin-ukraine-crimea-valery-gergiev-20140312-story.html

2013 - controversies regarding Russian anti-gay laws https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/nov/06/russian-conductor-antigay-london-symphony

2012 - appears in pro-Putin commercial https://www.wqxr.org/story/190227-valery-gergiev-appears-putin-campaign-commercial

2008 - South Ossetia propaganda concert https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/aug/21/georgia.russia2

Also: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/valery-gergiev-and-the-nightmare-of-music-under-putin

etc. He has been a stern supporter of all of Putin's previous invasions/wars.

Quote from: Yabetz on March 07, 2022, 03:27:22 PM
Yeah I should also add that I've never listened to one minute of Gergiev's conducting or Netrebko's singing. That isn't the point. I've listened to Furtwängler, Richard Strauss, Walter Gieseking and Pierre Fournier though. And watched a Maurice Chevalier movie or two.

I think your point has been made at this juncture. How about actually listening to music and discussing with us now?

I mean, I don't think people are going after Valery Gergiev because he's unique in his acceptance of patronage from the Russian government; I think they're going after him because he's an easy target. He's old, not as artistically relevant as he once was, does not have the patronage of many important people other than the Russian government, and is not well liked by other musicians for various reasons. It is therefore easy to appoint him designated scapegoat. Similarly, James Levine could be appointed designated scapegoat for the all-pervasive (and still ongoing) problem of sexual assault and harassment in classical music because he was well past his prime and no longer especially important to more than a handful of donors.

By comparison, if a young, popular, up-and-coming conductor well liked by audiences and connected to a wide variety of different patrons—I'll use Maxim Emelyanychev as an arbitrary example—were to have been accepting an equal amount of patronage and propaganda from the Russian government (which I don't think Maxim has, but I could be wrong) over the course of several years, the establishment would not be taking these steps with him. I can personally think of two relatively young, increasingly famous and critically acclaimed, and broadly connected conductors against whom multiple allegations of sexual abuse, while not publicly known at present, are an "open secret" in the classical music community—nothing whatsoever happened to their careers, and I don't expect anything to happen until they're no longer deemed critically relevant or their sponsors cut ties. (Not disclosing names until accusers come forward publicly, obviously.)

I can personally listen to Gergiev recordings with a clear conscience because I rarely acquire music through legal means. Although I don't find most of them to be very good. I think my point overall is that focusing on Gergiev, or on the (many) other classical musicians who support right-wing or far-right parties and have therefore personally supported all kinds of wars and genocides, ignores the point that the overall industry is almost entirely financed by (a) world governments, few of which have clean hands, and (b) individual billionaires and corporations, whose actions have indirectly led to numerous additional wars, genocides, etc. For example, if you buy any CD from Cedille Records, you're consuming a product created in part through funding provided by a US Supreme Court justice, who was, by the nature of her position, complicit in every US-led war of aggression from Kosovo to Yemen. Would boycotting those CDs have done anything to save Yemeni lives? Of course not. Boycotting Valery Gergiev—at this point, he is very rich, not particularly involved in conducting anyway, will continue to be able to find work in his home country, and will continue to be supported by people who prefer to get their classical music without having to think about politics. More importantly: to have any effect, boycott campaigns have to be conducted (a) at the request of the civil society of the victims (in this case the Ukrainians), (b) with a specific set of demands, (c) with a specific set of targets, to be selected by the victims for maximum effect, and (d) consistently over a long period of time, not just when the conflict happens to be in the news. Without that, all you have are people acting out personal grievances in a disorganised manner.

Quote from: amw on March 07, 2022, 06:56:35 PM
For example, if you buy any CD from Cedille Records, you're consuming a product created in part through funding provided by a US Supreme Court justice, who was, by the nature of her position, complicit in every US-led war of aggression from Kosovo to Yemen.

This is the stupidest thing I've read here in a long time.

QuoteI can personally listen to Gergiev recordings with a clear conscience because I rarely acquire music through legal means.

Easy peasy then.

Quote from: Yabetz on March 07, 2022, 12:43:26 PM
So was that treatment, along with the boycotting and blacklisting, just? That's the question. Was the blacklisting of the 1950s justified?

I should not have muddied the waters by bringing up the Dixie Chicks. We now have three examples that have very little to do with each other.

Gergiev - minion, promotor and beneficiary of a murderous dictator. I think any organization that employs him is justified in dismissing him, because this would be implicit support of the Putin regime.

Dixie Chicks - made ham-handed criticism of George W. Bush (which touring in Europe, aligning themselves with anti-American sentiment in Europe). People were within their rights to boycott her music if they were offended by their political stance and radio stations were within their rights to take the off their play lists. I view their stance as principled and courageous.

1950's blacklist - result of the House Unamerican Activities committee, which was soon after discredited and is now viewed as an abuse of government power - illegitimate.

My personal criteria is that I will not support living artists who are involved in morally objectionable behavior.

Quote from: Spotted Horses on March 08, 2022, 07:28:29 AM
Gergiev - minion, promotor and beneficiary of a murderous dictator. I think any organization that employs him is justified in dismissing him, because [not doing] this would be implicit support of the Putin regime.

You hit the nail on the head.

Quote from: Yabetz on March 08, 2022, 10:01:51 AM
Why was it considered an abuse of government power? And that doesn't say anything about the legitimacy of Hollywood blacklisting. If the studio heads decided that such people were reprehensible and should not be hired, weren't they within their rights not to hire them? Wasn't that a similarly principled thing to do? You see you can't really pick and choose based on which victims you might more likely agree with.

You've already made clear your position as a Putinist troll. It's high time you stop.

Quote from: Yabetz on March 08, 2022, 10:24:11 AM
I'm arguing for freedom of expression and I'm the Putinist? You people cheer a politician demanding a coerced political statement and you're, what, defenders of liberty? You just disagree with this or that specific authoritarian, not with authoritarianism.

You've only made 19 posts to this forum (17 defending the right to support Putin) and you're already the only person on this forum that I have on my ignore list.

Quote from: Yabetz on March 08, 2022, 10:24:11 AM
I'm arguing for freedom of expression and I'm the Putinist? Y

This is first and foremost a classical music forum --- about which you contributed absolutely nothing so far. If you really want to be the hero of freedom of expression, go shout out loud "Down with Putin!" in the Red Square.

Quote from: Florestan on March 08, 2022, 11:11:45 AM
This is first and foremost a classical music forum --- about which you contributed absolutely nothing so far. If you really want to be the hero of freedom of expression, go shout out loud "Down with Putin!" in the Red Square.

+ 1

Quote from: Yabetz on March 09, 2022, 06:55:17 PM
By the same token, if you really want to put a hurt on Putin, go to Ukraine and volunteer your services.

Or how about going to the "Listening" thread or one of the composers' threads and actually talk about music instead of continuing your die-a-tribes on this thread? Should I hold my breath in thinking this will happen? Probably not.

Quote from: Spotted Horses on March 08, 2022, 11:09:47 AM
You've only made 19 posts to this forum (17 defending the right to support Putin) and you're already the only person on this forum that I have on my ignore list.

Took me 2 posts. But I use the ignore list more often.

Quote from: T. D. on March 09, 2022, 08:02:35 PM
Took me 2 posts. But I use the ignore list more often.

You saw my post, which suggests you're not blocking me. :)

Quote from: amw on March 07, 2022, 06:56:35 PM
I can personally think of two relatively young, increasingly famous and critically acclaimed, and broadly connected conductors against whom multiple allegations of sexual abuse, while not publicly known at present, are an "open secret" in the classical music community—nothing whatsoever happened to their careers, and I don't expect anything to happen until they're no longer deemed critically relevant or their sponsors cut ties. (Not disclosing names until accusers come forward publicly, obviously.)

If Julian Wachner was one, an accuser's come forward and he's been suspended from his job as music director of New York's Trinity Church.

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 09, 2022, 07:14:44 PM
Or how about going to the "Listening" thread or one of the composers' threads and actually talk about music instead of continuing your die-a-tribes on this thread? Should I hold my breath in thinking this will happen? Probably not.

Their posting style and only engaging in controversial topics reminds me of at least one or more GMG members that were banned.

Fully expecting this post getting the "muh freedoms"... on a privately owned and operated board.

Quote from: hvbias on March 13, 2022, 03:58:01 PM
Their posting style and only engaging in controversial topics reminds me of at least one or more GMG members that were banned.

Fully expecting this post getting the "muh freedoms"... on a privately owned and operated board.

Yeah, it's quite clear this member is a troll, so its best not to feed him. 0:)

I don't think anyone would be willing to defend Boris Berezovsky.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-pianist-calls-for-power-to-be-cut-to-kyiv/ar-AAV7IXs?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-pianist-calls-for-power-to-be-cut-to-kyiv/ar-AAV7IXs?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531)

I can't think of one single great Russian writer, thinker or composer of the past who would have supported Putin's war on Ukraine save possibly Solzhenitsyn.

Quote from: Florestan on March 16, 2022, 03:32:48 AM
I can't think of one single great Russian writer, thinker or composer of the past who would have supported Putin's war on Ukraine save possibly Solzhenitsyn.

They may well have if they had lived this long. After all, lots of the Soviet dissident generation came out in support of the annexation of Crimea and now the current war, since many people just get soft-headed in old age and they have spent many years now under the brainwashing effect of Channel 1 and other state-run television. Sofia Gubaidulina fairly recently gave an interview where she parroted the Russian government line on Ukrainian "Neo-Nazis" almost word for word – this is what happens when you are a sheltered 90-year-old living in a house where Russian television is probably playing all day long as a link to your native country and language.

Sometimes you have to be grateful that a composer known for his anti-authoritarian stance like Schnittke died pre-Putin, so he couldn't live long enough to eventually betray his own legacy.

Quote from: Szykneij on March 16, 2022, 03:18:25 AM
I don't think anyone would be willing to defend Boris Berezovsky.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-pianist-calls-for-power-to-be-cut-to-kyiv/ar-AAV7IXs?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-pianist-calls-for-power-to-be-cut-to-kyiv/ar-AAV7IXs?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531)

Holy sh!t. That is a whole nother level. That is well beyond.

Quote from: CRCulver on March 16, 2022, 04:04:32 AM
They may well have if they had lived this long. After all, lots of the Soviet dissident generation came out in support of the annexation of Crimea and now the current war, since many people just get soft-headed in old age and they have spent many years now under the brainwashing effect of Channel 1 and other state-run television. Sofia Gubaidulina fairly recently gave an interview where she parroted the Russian government line on Ukrainian "Neo-Nazis" almost word for word – this is what happens when you are a sheltered 90-year-old living in a house where Russian television is probably playing all day long as a link to your native country and language.

Sometimes you have to be grateful that a composer known for his anti-authoritarian stance like Schnittke died pre-Putin, so he couldn't live long enough to eventually betray his own legacy.

This is true as well. Yet I believe that Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Turgenev, Chekhov, Bulgakov, Pasternak, Grossman, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff or Medtner would have never supported this abomination.

Quote from: Brian on March 16, 2022, 04:20:26 AM
Holy sh!t. That is a whole nother level. That is well beyond.

Indeed.

More well-known former-USSR composers of the elder generation, that are still alive (?), besides Gubaidulina, would include

- Rodion Shchedrin
- Vyacheslav Artyomov
- Alla Pavlova (lives in New York)
- Tigran Mansurian (Armenian)
- Vladislav Shoot (lives in the UK)
- Vladimir Martyonov
- Dmitri Smirnov (lives in London)
- Elena Firsova (lives in London)
- Vladimir Tarnapolsky
- Alexander Raskatov
- Alexander Knaifel (Uzbek)

I'm mostly not up to date about their current whereabouts. A lot of them have been pretty avant-garde. I checked Artyomov, but found no political statements.

(Slonimsky, Ovchinnikov, Alexander Vustin and Kapustin died not so long ago).

Quote from: Szykneij on March 16, 2022, 03:18:25 AM
I don't think anyone would be willing to defend Boris Berezovsky.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-pianist-calls-for-power-to-be-cut-to-kyiv/ar-AAV7IXs?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-pianist-calls-for-power-to-be-cut-to-kyiv/ar-AAV7IXs?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531)

Nothing to say about that other than a big wow. Yet another musician I don't find all that interesting outside of the Beethoven Piano Concerti.

Quote from: hvbias on March 16, 2022, 06:51:58 AM
Nothing to say about that other than a big wow. Yet another musician I don't find all that interesting outside of the Beethoven Piano Concerti.

His Liszt concertos etc. and his Balakirev/Mussorgsky/Medtner etc., both on Teldec, were good.

Didn't know he had those attitudes. I know Gavrilov has been in the opposite camp for many years.

Quote from: Florestan on March 16, 2022, 04:38:58 AM
This is true as well. Yet I believe that Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Turgenev, Chekhov, Bulgakov, Pasternak, Grossman, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff or Medtner would have never supported this abomination.

Vladimir Horowitz only drank Polish made Vodka!

Quote from: Que on March 16, 2022, 07:00:42 AM
Vladimir Horowitz only drank Polish made Vodka!

:D

Quote from: Florestan on March 16, 2022, 04:38:58 AM
This is true as well. Yet I believe that Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Turgenev, Chekhov, Bulgakov, Pasternak, Grossman, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff or Medtner would have never supported this abomination.

The great thing about hypothetical history is that it can turn out however you want. We have no idea how the above-mentioned individuals would have reacted to the current situation. My personal opinion is that they would have found the present state of the former Russian Empire/USSR totally alien and incomprehensible. But who knows?

Quote from: Florestan on March 16, 2022, 03:32:48 AM
I can't think of one single great Russian writer, thinker or composer of the past who would have supported Putin's war on Ukraine save possibly Solzhenitsyn.

Really? Based on what I've read, Solzhenitsyn believed two things: 1) Ukraine and Belarus would be better off in some sort of union with Russia, and 2) however, if the Ukrainians decided to be independent, that decision should be respected. At least, that's what he said in his c. 1990 treatise How to Rebuild Russia.

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 16, 2022, 06:57:34 PM
Really? Based on what I've read, Solzhenitsyn believed two things: 1) Ukraine and Belarus would be better off in some sort of union with Russia, and 2) however, if the Ukrainians decided to be independent, that decision should be respected. At least, that's what he said in his c. 1990 treatise How to Rebuild Russia.

It's from Wikipedia so it might not be entirely accurate:

According to William Harrison, Solzhenitsyn was an "arch-reactionary", who argued that the Soviet State "suppressed" traditional Russian and Ukrainian culture, called for the creation of a united Slavic state encompassing Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus, and who was a fierce opponent of Ukrainian independence. It is well documented that his negative views on Ukrainian independence became more radical over the years.[86]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn#Views_on_history_and_politics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn#Views_on_history_and_politics)

If we want a Soviet hero, go for Sakharov. Solzhenitsyn was a piece of s..t.

Quote from: Szykneij on March 16, 2022, 03:18:25 AM
I don't think anyone would be willing to defend Boris Berezovsky.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-pianist-calls-for-power-to-be-cut-to-kyiv/ar-AAV7IXs?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-pianist-calls-for-power-to-be-cut-to-kyiv/ar-AAV7IXs?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531)

He was sacked by his agent following those remarks on Russian TV:
https://www.classical-music.com/news/pianist-boris-berezovsky-dropped-by-agent-following-comments-on-ukraine-conflict/ (has a summary etc. of his remarks).

He also gave this Lebanese TV interview in French, (very poor sound quality) - but basically, his politely expressed attitude there is (I'm quoting him literally): "art changes nothing, a few artist are able to get engaged in what they believe in, but that's not for me; let's enjoy the good things in life  - the arts, eating and sports - and not think too much about it, in 3 years this will be a thing of the past, let the military sector deal with this crisis; there has always been wars, the opinions about it are 50-50; the West put too much pressure on Russia for many years; Putin warned against it; and all those wars by the US have cost destruction and civilian lives. So the question of civilians isn't valid from my point of view. But in the future, people will probably develop more consciousness and solve the problems peacefully".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SSfMs0Z7cU

I'm not sure I get the headline, but it sounds rather ironical: his playing may be 'vehement', but the interview shows total acceptance of Putin's narrative. Or maybe it's meant to tell about a general Russian vehemence.

Quote from: MusicTurner on March 16, 2022, 06:55:13 AM
His Liszt concertos etc. and his Balakirev/Mussorgsky/Medtner etc., both on Teldec, were good.

His (Boris Berezovsky's) Ludus Tonalis isn't that bad either. But now I don't know if I want to listen to it again.

Opinion: Russian athletes and artists have moral obligations, too (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/03/17/russian-athletes-artists-must-denounce-putin-war-ukraine/)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 20, 2022, 09:20:24 AM
Opinion: Russian athletes and artists have moral obligations, too (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/03/17/russian-athletes-artists-must-denounce-putin-war-ukraine/)

There's been interesting debate in the chess world on this point:
https://www.chess.com/news/view/dvorkovich-in-tight-spot-as-fide-president

I believe sportswashing is real and has been shamelessly cultivated / rewarded by organizations like the IOC, FIFA, FIA, UCI, FIDE, ... over the years.

Not so sure about "culturewashing", if only because sports are so much more lucrative and popular.  :'(

Antonio Pappano, Simon Rattle, Barbara Hannigan & Fabio Luisi Among Signatories Petitioning Against the Canceling of Russian Artists (https://operawire.com/antonio-pappano-simon-rattle-barbara-hannigan-fabio-luisi-among-signatories-petitioning-against-the-canceling-of-russian-artists/)

Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2022, 05:34:57 AM
Antonio Pappano, Simon Rattle, Barbara Hannigan & Fabio Luisi Among Signatories Petitioning Against the Canceling of Russian Artists (https://operawire.com/antonio-pappano-simon-rattle-barbara-hannigan-fabio-luisi-among-signatories-petitioning-against-the-canceling-of-russian-artists/)

Quotenot all Russians and Belarusians, and certainly not all cultural figures of these two nations, support this terrible invasion.

Of course they don't. Has anyone claimed they did?

QuoteTherefore, we find it unjust to condemn Russians or Belarusians for the actions of the dictator and his supporters without any direct evidence of their collusion.

AFAIK, the condemnation was nominally directed against Gergiev, Netrebko and Matsuev, who were already known as having publicly avowed ties to Putin. Valentina Lisitsa is in a limbo. But I don't remember any nominal condemnation of any other living Russian musician.

What I do remember is the BBC Wales Orchestra cancelling a Tchaikovsky concert and a certain Italian university cancelling --- better said, trying unsuccesfully to cancel --- lectures on Dostoevsky. Both of which are idiotic in the extreme.

Overall, though, I'd say that the West is much more sympathetic to, and appreciative of, Russian culture than Russia is to, and of, Western culture.

Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2022, 06:54:45 AM
Of course they don't. Has anyone claimed they did?

AFAIK, the condemnation was nominally directed against Gergiev, Netrebko and Matsuev, who were already known as having publicly avowed ties to Putin. Valentina Lisitsa is in a limbo. But I don't remember any nominal condemnation of any other living Russian musician.

What I do remember is the BBC Wales Orchestra cancelling a Tchaikovsky concert and a certain Italian university cancelling --- better said, trying unsuccesfully to cancel --- lectures on Dostoevsky. Both of which are idiotic in the extreme.

Overall, though, I'd say that the West is much more sympathetic to, and appreciative of, Russian culture than Russia is to, and of, Western culture.

As I said before, it's the people in power that are the problem not the innocent people that live in the country. Canceling a concert that features music from Tchaikovsky or Prokofiev is beyond moronic and I don't understand how these composers have anything to do with Putin's madness.

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 29, 2022, 07:14:01 AM
As I said before, it's the people in power that are the problem not the innocent people that live in the country. Canceling a concert that features music from Tchaikovsky or Prokofiev is beyond moronic and I don't understand how these composers have anything to do with Putin's madness.

Yes.

So much so as the 1812 Overture depicts precisely the repelling of a megalomanic dictator's invasion by both the army and the people of the country he invaded.

Yet I still stand by what I said: nowadays the West rejects Russian culture much, much, much less than Russia rejects Western culture.

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 29, 2022, 07:14:01 AM
As I said before, it's the people in power that are the problem not the innocent people that live in the country. Canceling a concert that features music from Tchaikovsky or Prokofiev is beyond moronic and I don't understand how these composers have anything to do with Putin's madness.

I agree with you and Florestan on the matter.  It is unfortunate that civilians in Russia suffer from the sanctions as well as civilians losing their lives and homes.  Such is war.

Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2022, 07:18:55 AM
Yes.

So much so as the 1812 Overture depicts precisely the repelling of a megalomanic dictator's invasion by both the army and the people of the country he invaded.

Over the past month or so I've seen the Nashville Symphony perform Shostakovich's 5th and 1812 Overture, both times the music director, Giancarlo Guerrero, spoke to the audience and explained why after discussions they decided to not replace these with non-Russian composer works. Guerrero mentioned a bit of history for each work but wanted to put more focus on the music rather than a meaning.

Quote from: DavidW on March 29, 2022, 08:11:06 AM
I agree with you and Florestan on the matter.  It is unfortunate that civilians in Russia suffer from the sanctions as well as civilians losing their lives and homes.  Such is war.

Hopefully, it'll be over soon.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 29, 2022, 12:09:09 PM
Over the past month or so I've seen the Nashville Symphony perform Shostakovich's 5th and 1812 Overture, both times the music director, Giancarlo Guerrero, spoke to the audience and explained why after discussions they decided to not replace these with non-Russian composer works. Guerrero mentioned a bit of history for each work but wanted to put more focus on the music rather than a meaning.

I have also read that Western orchestras are considering removing Russian composers from their concerts. I find this stupid! Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich and other Russian composers have nothing to do with the current situation.

Quote from: joachim on April 11, 2022, 02:14:58 AM
I have also read that Western orchestras are considering removing Russian composers from their concerts. I find this stupid! Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich and other Russian composers have nothing to do with the current situation.

+1

Quote from: joachim on April 11, 2022, 02:14:58 AM
I have also read that Western orchestras are considering removing Russian composers from their concerts. I find this stupid! Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich and other Russian composers have nothing to do with the current situation.

I wouldn't be so quick to criticize orchestra management. They have to keep their orchestras afloat financially, and if people are just not in the mood to listen to listen to Russian music at this point, they have to adapt.

Quote from: Spotted Horses on April 11, 2022, 07:14:25 AM
I wouldn't be so quick to criticize orchestra management. They have to keep their orchestras afloat financially, and if people are just not in the mood to listen to listen to Russian music at this point, they have to adapt.

Money > Artistic integrity

Quote from: Spotted Horses on April 11, 2022, 07:14:25 AM
I wouldn't be so quick to criticize orchestra management. They have to keep their orchestras afloat financially, and if people are just not in the mood to listen to listen to Russian music at this point, they have to adapt.

And the fact that people wouldn't be in the mood for Russian music just because of the murderer Putin, shows a great ignorance on their part. The United States has done a lot of fucking stupid things throughout its history (esp. during the Bush presidencies), but this doesn't deter me from listening to Ives or Copland.

Donating his salary for an evening concert in Vienna, Sokolov, now living in Italy, is touring a lot these days; already in mid-March, he started giving money to a German-Red Cross help project for Ukrainian victims of war, "Nachbar in Not / Neighbour in suffering", as announced at the beginning of that Vienna concert.

https://www.wienerzeitung.at/nachrichten/kultur/klassik/2140693-Neues-vom-Weltmeister.html (in German)

Kissin called the invasion a war crime early on, and Putin has qualified for a Nuremberg trial.
Decades ago, Kissin seemed very introvert and fixated only on music; this statement shows something quite different from him.

https://slippedisc.com/2022/02/evgeny-kissin-putins-invasion-is-a-crime-for-which-there-can-be-no-excuse/

Quote from: Spotted Horses on April 11, 2022, 07:14:25 AM
I wouldn't be so quick to criticize orchestra management. They have to keep their orchestras afloat financially, and if people are just not in the mood to listen to listen to Russian music at this point, they have to adapt.

The Swiss Verbier 2022 Festival (where Gergiev was fired and replaced by Noseda) goes the opposite way, changing the original opening concert program with Gergiev (Shostakovich 1st Symphony, Bartok 2nd Concerto and a Shedrin piece):

"While we condemn both the actions of the Russian government and those who support them, we will not turn our backs on Russian musicians nor the great tradition of Russian music. Our festival was built on the value of inclusion. It's in our DNA to bring people together during this difficult time.".

In stead, at that concert, Noseda will now conduct Shostakovich's troubled 4th Symphony; and Shchedrin's 2nd Piano Concerto is played by the Ukrainian pianist Fedorova.

https://www.verbierfestival.com/en/media-release-2022-03-16/
https://www.verbierfestival.com/en/show/mainstage-2022-07-15-1900/

original programme for the festival:
https://verbierfestival.sharepoint.com/VFData/Forms/AllItems.aspx?id=%2FVFData%2FCommunications%20et%20Marketing%2F2022%2FPre%2Dprogramme%2FFinal%2F2021%2012%2008%20Pre%2Dprogramme%20%2D%20Web%2Epdf&parent=%2FVFData%2FCommunications%20et%20Marketing%2F2022%2FPre%2Dprogramme%2FFinal&p=true&ga=1

Quote from: MusicTurner on April 11, 2022, 08:58:47 AM
The Swiss Verbier 2022 Festival (where Gergiev was fired and replaced by Noseda) goes the opposite way, changing the original opening concert program with Gergiev (Shostakovich 1st Symphony, Bartok 2nd Concerto and a Shedrin piece):

"While we condemn both the actions of the Russian government and those who support them, we will not turn our backs on Russian musicians nor the great tradition of Russian music. Our festival was built on the value of inclusion. It's in our DNA to bring people together during this difficult time.".

In stead, at that concert, Noseda will now conduct Shostakovich's troubled 4th Symphony; and Shchedrin's 2nd Piano Concerto is played by the Ukrainian pianist Fedorova.

https://www.verbierfestival.com/en/media-release-2022-03-16/
https://www.verbierfestival.com/en/show/mainstage-2022-07-15-1900/

original programme for the festival:
https://verbierfestival.sharepoint.com/VFData/Forms/AllItems.aspx?id=%2FVFData%2FCommunications%20et%20Marketing%2F2022%2FPre%2Dprogramme%2FFinal%2F2021%2012%2008%20Pre%2Dprogramme%20%2D%20Web%2Epdf&parent=%2FVFData%2FCommunications%20et%20Marketing%2F2022%2FPre%2Dprogramme%2FFinal&p=true&ga=1

That is a more just response to the situation. I trust the management of the Verbier Festival knows their audience and this leads to enhanced success.

"Police raid an antiwar concert at a Moscow cultural center, disrupting a performance by pianist Alexei Lubimov (Lyubimov). But he still managed to finish his last tune."

https://twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1514317529904209929

Schubert as a defiant moment, surrounded by policemen - a grotesque situation.

Reports so far tell of the arrest because either a piece by Silvestrov being played (who is a friend of Lubimov), or at an earlier concert in March with Lubimov, an anti-war poem was recited. Or there was a sabotage message about a possible bomb at the place. Still need more confirmed details, though. Obviously, the public there is protesting about the police interference. Lubimov is 77.

https://444.hu/2022/04/13/rendorok-allitottak-le-egy-ukran-zeneszerzo-elott-tisztelgo-zongorakoncertet-moszkvaban

It turns out that Gergiev has earned very, very well, and his properties in Italy alone are worth more than 100 million Euros, as researched by the Navalny group.

There's a villa close to Rome with 18 rooms and a pool; a coastal ground near Naples; a large compound near Rimini; and several houses/grounds near Milan. Plus the impressive 16th-century Palazzo Barbarigo at the Canale Grande in Venice, which he inherited under some peculiar circumstances.

He also owns several compounds in Russia of course (St.Petersburg, 670 m2 + a summer villa in Repino, and an apartment in Moscow), and a relatively big flat in New York (165 m2).

I knew that for example Rozhdestvensky had a private jet, but Gergiev seems to be in a different league.

Article, in Italian, but translatable:
https://www.ilgiornale.it/news/mondo/ecco-l-impero-direttore-d-orchestra-amico-putin-2026667.html?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1650017888

The Palazzo in Venice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palazzo_Barbarigo

Wow, that's depressing as all hell. I knew sucking up to terrible governments etcetera paid, but evidently it pays far better than not doing so, even (maybe especially?) in our supposedly idealistic classical music world.

Karajan especially, and likely Bernstein, maybe a few others (Levine, Boulez, Toscanini for example?) also earned nicely, but I haven't seen articles describing equally sumptous conditions for other conductors. Such articles might exist though (obviously Gergiev probably didn't want the info to be published).

Some conductors have probably also simply been much less interested in acquiring a lot of material goods.

Quote from: MusicTurner on April 17, 2022, 01:20:29 AMSome conductors have probably also simply been much less interested in acquiring a lot of material goods.

What do you base this statement on? 

Also, is there any indication that Gergiev engaged in criminal behavior?  Or is he just guilty of sucking up to a bad person and holding very bad opinions?

As to conductors who earn nice salaries, ten seconds of googling found these numbers for US orchestras from last year.  Throw in guest conducting, and these conductors are doing quite well, if not Gergiev well.  They all earn top 0.1% incomes in the US, which means they rank even higher in other countries.  I suspect major European orchestras pay something similar.

Riccardo Muti at the Chicago Symphony: $3,420,804
Gustavo Dudamel at the Los Angeles Philharmonic: $2,857,103
Michael Tilson Thomas at the San Francisco Symphony: $2,139,720
Andris Nelsons at the Boston Symphony: $1,787,000
Yannick-Nézet-Séguin at the Philadelphia Orchestra: $1,672,167

There is nothing egalitarian or idealistic about the classical music world.

Seems to me that everyone is right. There is nothing egalitarian or idealistic about the economics of classical music; it's as much a glamor business as sports or acting. The article doesn't seem to explain why Gergiev has amassed such a dazzling hoard of wealth. On the other hand, Gergiev's wealth is clearly an order of magnitude greater than that of his colleagues - 100 million Euros of property just in one of the countries where he lives. Personally, I make the assumption that it derives from kissing the behinds of rich, powerful friends.

It must be nice to know that if the world decides that it doesn't like you anymore and wants you to stop doing your job, at least you have a bunch of fabulous mansions in beautiful places. Certainly not true for me  ;D

As far as this -

Quote from: MusicTurner on April 17, 2022, 01:20:29 AM
Some conductors have probably also simply been much less interested in acquiring a lot of material goods.

Quote from: Todd on April 17, 2022, 07:28:55 AM
What do you base this statement on? 

It's a truism; find any group of people and some will be more or less interested in material wealth. I don't know a lot about the personal histories of conductors and their lives, but the pianist Sergio Fiorentino is an example of a top-tier classical artist who didn't care about acquiring wealth or pursuing the kind of career which would achieve such a goal.

Quote from: Brian on April 17, 2022, 09:45:02 AM
It's a truism; find any group of people and some will be more or less interested in material wealth.

Yes.

Quote from: Brian on April 17, 2022, 09:45:02 AMIt's a truism; find any group of people and some will be more or less interested in material wealth.

Perhaps, but it seems like it would be less common with conductors than soloists.  I can think of several great or extremely fine soloists who clearly didn't or don't like the limelight and consciously took a different path (eg, Sanchez, Block, Attenelle, Kars rather obviously), but conductors necessarily want to be in charge, by the nature of their job.  Less driven conductors would be more likely to end up leading sub-par orchestras and would not really be heard from, but from the outside it would be essentially impossible to know if they shy away from the limelight and do not pursue the trappings of their profession or if they are just mediocre.

Quote from: Todd on April 17, 2022, 09:54:14 AM
it seems like it would be less common with conductors than soloists.  I can think of several great or extremely fine soloists who clearly didn't or don't like the limelight and consciously took a different path (eg, Sanchez, Block, Attenelle, Kars rather obviously), but conductors necessarily want to be in charge, by the nature of their job.

Indeed. A self-effacing conductor is an oxymoron.  ;D

Quote from: Brian on April 17, 2022, 09:45:02 AM
Seems to me that everyone is right. There is nothing egalitarian or idealistic about the economics of classical music; it's as much a glamor business as sports or acting. The article doesn't seem to explain why Gergiev has amassed such a dazzling hoard of wealth. On the other hand, Gergiev's wealth is clearly an order of magnitude greater than that of his colleagues - 100 million Euros of property just in one of the countries where he lives. Personally, I make the assumption that it derives from kissing the behinds of rich, powerful friends.

It must be nice to know that if the world decides that it doesn't like you anymore and wants you to stop doing your job, at least you have a bunch of fabulous mansions in beautiful places. Certainly not true for me  ;D

(...)

The original, much more detailed Navalny team article tells of a lot of dubious circumstances regarding Gergiev's economy, besides his propaganda function - such as Gergiev illegally using foundation means donated by big companies etc. for personal gains and pleasures, a lack of registering his assets, etc. Also, he apparently has a secret (?), Dutch citizenship, the legality of which in Russia is debated. The previously mentioned summary from Il Giornale only lists some of the stuff.

https://navalny.com/p/6621/ (in Russian, but Google translate has improved a lot in relation to that language).

Quote from: MusicTurner on April 17, 2022, 10:20:14 AM
The original, much more detailed Navalny team article tells of a lot of dubious circumstances regarding Gergiev's economy, besides his propaganda function - such as Gergiev illegally using foundation means donated by big companies etc. for personal gains and pleasures, a lack of registering his assets, etc. Also, he apparently has a secret (?), Dutch citizenship, the legality of which in Russia is debated. The previously mentioned summary from Il Giornale only lists some of the stuff.

https://navalny.com/p/6621/ (in Russian, but Google translate has improved a lot in relation to that language).

The piece you linked to is a hatchet job.  One should always be mindful of sources.

Quote from: Todd on April 17, 2022, 10:45:01 AM
The piece you linked to is a hatchet job.  One should always be mindful of sources.

The investigations by the Navalny Foundation, harsh as they are in their criticism, are quite respectable – multiple governments use them as a source for their enforcement of sanctions.

Quote from: CRCulver on April 18, 2022, 04:23:18 PMmultiple governments use them as a source for their enforcement of sanctions.

This assertion does not validate the article.

I haven't got recordings performed by Gergiev; I remember his Tannhäuser at the Bayreuth Festival 2019 and it was fine, though not unforgettable, but anyway I was quite disappointed that he decided not to take position against the war; there's difference between your country and its government, and the love someone can have for the first doesn't mean he has to approve the second.

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 27, 2022, 02:52:18 AM
there's difference between your country and its government, and the love someone can have for the first doesn't mean he has to approve the second.

Amen!

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 27, 2022, 02:52:18 AM
I haven't got recordings performed by Gergiev; I remember his Tannhäuser at the Bayreuth Festival 2019 and it was fine, though not unforgettable, but anyway I was quite disappointed that he decided not to take position against the war; there's difference between your country and its government, and the love someone can have for the first doesn't mean he has to approve the second.

Well said, Ilaria.

IIRC, it was Winston Churchill who said something to the effect that "my country, right or wrong" is equivalent to "my mother, sober or drunk".

Munich Philharmonic concertmaster tours with former chief conductor Gergiev (https://www.thestrad.com/news/munich-philharmonic-concertmaster-tours-with-former-chief-conductor-gergiev/14796.article)

Should Nasturica-Herschcowici's career be demolished as a result of his immoral treachery? 

(Fortunately, the Munich Philharmonic investigated the "legality" of the tour, and concluded it is copacetic.  Whew!)