Genesis

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I just bought my first Genesis album (second-hand) called 'Selling England by the Pound' recommended to me by someone in a second-hand record shop. Haven't played it yet.

Awesome, Jeffrey! Please tell me it's the newer 2007 (?) remix/remaster of the album. What a glorious album that is. There's one piece I don't care much for on that otherwise solid album and it's The Battle of Epping Forest. My problem with it stems from the lack of instrumental interplay and sections that are found in their other pieces of the same kind of duration. I just felt the material doesn't sustain it's length. Now, The Cinema Show, Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, and Firth of Fifth, on the other hand, are musical gold. Enjoy and please come back here and share your thoughts.

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Separately, I am absolutely wowed by the remastering of Selling England by the Pound.

Not only is it a remaster, but the album has been remixed as well with the band members' assistance and, yes, it sounds remarkably good.

[Karl Henning]

Awesome, Jeffrey! Please tell me it’s the newer 2007 (?) remix/remaster of the album. What a glorious album that is. There’s one piece I don’t care much for on that otherwise solid album and it’s The Battle of Epping Forest. My problem with it stems from the lack of instrumental interplay and sections that are found in their other pieces of the same kind of duration. I just felt the material doesn’t sustain it’s length.

OTOH, the elegiac epilogue, "After the Ordeal," is one of my very favorite tracks.

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[Mirror Image]

OTOH, the elegiac epilogue, "After the Ordeal," is one of my very favorite tracks.

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Indeed it is, Karl.

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What I particularly love about The Cinema Show from Selling England by the Pound is the extensive improv of keyboardist Tony Banks. On previous albums, we haven't really heard him to much extended soloing, so this was a real treat. The melodic invention of Banks is really something else.

[vandermolen]

Awesome, Jeffrey! Please tell me it's the newer 2007 (?) remix/remaster of the album. What a glorious album that is. There's one piece I don't care much for on that otherwise solid album and it's The Battle of Epping Forest. My problem with it stems from the lack of instrumental interplay and sections that are found in their other pieces of the same kind of duration. I just felt the material doesn't sustain it's length. Now, The Cinema Show, Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, and Firth of Fifth, on the other hand, are musical gold. Enjoy and please come back here and share your thoughts.

Will do John,
I'll play it in the car today - although I bet it's an older version.

[Karl Henning]

Will do John,
I'll play it in the car today - although I bet it's an older version.

No harm, that's the form in which we came first to love the album 

[Mirror Image]

Will do John,
I'll play it in the car today - although I bet it's an older version.

That's perfectly fine. It's the music I hope you enjoy the most. If you do like the music, then I can only urge you to buy the new remix/remaster of the album. As Karl said, it's amazing.

[vandermolen]

I'm enjoying 'Selling England by the Pound' although I'm only two-thirds of the way through it. Oddly enough it was recommended to me by the proprietor of a second-hand record shop following a discussion about Vaughan Williams although I doubt whether Ralph would have appreciated it! Of course he died in 1958 before the pop music explosion in the UK. However I do recall with amusement an interview with Sir William Walton in which, when asked about his views on pop music,  replied, in a very posh upper-class English accent: 'Well, I don't like The Whooooo'.
As I thought my copy of the Genesis album is a non-digital version from 1985. Why do I need the remastered version? I'm tempted to get it as I have very much enjoyed what I've heard so far.

[Mirror Image]

I'm enjoying 'Selling England by the Pound' although I'm only two-thirds of the way through it. Oddly enough it was recommended to me by the proprietor of a second-hand record shop following a discussion about Vaughan Williams although I doubt whether Ralph would have appreciated it! Of course he died in 1958 before the pop music explosion in the UK. However I do recall with amusement an interview with Sir William Walton in which, when asked about his views on pop music,  replied, in a very posh upper-class English accent: 'Well, I don't like The Whooooo'.
As I thought my copy of the Genesis album is a non-digital version from 1985. Why do I need the remastered version? I'm tempted to get it as I have very much enjoyed what I've heard so far.

Glad you're enjoying Selling England by the Pound so far, Jeffrey. Yeah, I don't think RVW would like Genesis' music too much, but you never know! I think it's important to remember that while Genesis are indeed classified as a 'pop band,' they're earlier work (which is their best work IMHO) doesn't aim to please people who looking for dumbed down, three-chord rock music. They're approach, as you've probably heard so far, is far more complicated and the arrangements are quite intricate. I would say get the newest 2007 remix/remaster, because a lot of has been cleaned up from the original tape and since it has also been completely remixed as well, we get to hear even greater separation between the instruments. Also, Hackett's guitar work, which has always been kind of low in the overall mix sounds as if a veil has been lifted off. These new remix/remasters really blew me away.

[vandermolen]

Glad you're enjoying Selling England by the Pound so far, Jeffrey. Yeah, I don't think RVW would like Genesis' music too much, but you never know! I think it's important to remember that while Genesis are indeed classified as a 'pop band,' they're earlier work (which is their best work IMHO) doesn't aim to please people who looking for dumbed down, three-chord rock music. They're approach, as you've probably heard so far, is far more complicated and the arrangements are quite intricate. I would say get the newest 2007 remix/remaster, because a lot of has been cleaned up from the original tape and since it has also been completely remixed as well, we get to hear even greater separation between the instruments. Also, Hackett's guitar work, which has always been kind of low in the overall mix sounds as if a veil has been lifted off. These new remix/remasters really blew me away.

VMT (very many thanks) John, that is really helpful. 

[Karl Henning]

In revisiting ... And Then There Were Three..., I'm experiencing polar opposites. There are wonderful things I had forgotten about, because I hadn't listened to the album in decades (such as the marvelously moving chorus in "Undertow," and the surprisingly successful "Many Too Many") and several IMO sub-par songs which, well, I was perfectly content to have forgotten (YMMV, but for me, "Scenes from a Night's Dream," "Burning Rope," "The Lady Lies," e.g.).

All that said, "Follow You, Follow Me" is sheer magic.

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VMT (very many thanks) John, that is really helpful. 

My pleasure, Jeffrey.

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In revisiting ... And Then There Were Three..., I'm experiencing polar opposites. There are wonderful things I had forgotten about, because I hadn't listened to the album in decades (such as the marvelously moving chorus in "Undertow," and the surprisingly successful "Many Too Many") and several IMO sub-par songs which, well, I was perfectly content to have forgotten (YMMV, but for me, "Scenes from a Night's Dream," "Burning Rope," "The Lady Lies," e.g.).

All that said, "Follow You, Follow Me" is sheer magic.

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... And Then There Were Three... is a decent album. Down And Out, Undertow, and Deep in the Motherlode are my favorites from that album. I always had problems with all of the other songs and find them to be forgettable (if I can apply such an adjective to a once great progressive rock band). Follow You, Follow Me is a good pop song, though. For me, after Hackett left, a lot of the tension and lyricism that made the albums he played on so enthralling is gone. They truly became a pop rock band after Hackett's departure even though there are still some proggy bits on other albums.

[vandermolen]

My pleasure, Jeffrey.

I've enjoyed the whole album now. Definitely want to listen again. Interestingly on Amazon UK there is a discussion about the CD and some say 'hang on to the 1985 CD release' but I'm still tempted to go for the digital remastering.

[NorthNYMark]

I've enjoyed the whole album now. Definitely want to listen again. Interestingly on Amazon UK there is a discussion about the CD and some say 'hang on to the 1985 CD release' but I'm still tempted to go for the digital remastering.

I'm actually going to respectfully disagree with John and Karl above about the remixes (which is far more radical of a change than a mere remastering), and agree with those urging folks to hang onto the earliest CD masterings. As always, these things depend on personal tastes. Basically, the early (1980s) CD masterings are relatively straightforward presentations of the original mixes, which I enjoy greatly. They are warm and organic sounding, with lots of atmosphere. Some of the US versions were a bit too trebly, but the US Selling England luckily didn't suffer from that.. As a recording, Selling England gave up some of the churchy atmosphere of the band's earlier material in exchange for a more clean and clear production style (for example, replacing mellotrons and organs with moogs, and having fewer 12-string guitars and mysterious backing vocals); nevertheless, it still has a remarkably warm, analogue sound, with a particularly rich midrange (moog and guitar solos positively glow). The best way to experience it is on original UK vinyl mastered by George Peckham, IMHO, but as that is somewhat rare and pricey, those first CD pressings come reasonably close. The first round of CD remastering in the '90s produced what were called the "Definitive Edition" remasters. They aren't terrible, but use typical remastering methods of the period, including digital noise reduction and digital dynamic range compression. Aside from being possibly more easy to find, there's almost no reason to get these over the original CD masterings.

As to the most recent versions, they are complete remixes, and rather radical ones. A lot of folks love them, usually citing increased clarity. They certainly do offer that, but at a great cost, IMHO. First, they use even more dynamic range compression and smiley-face EQ (jacking up the bass and treble and hollowing out the midrange) then even the Definitive Edition remasters. (The worst offenders are the middle period [1976-1981] remixes, which are so compressed and screechy as to be nearly unlistenable, IMHO). Moreover, the remixing tends to focus on bringing the vocals and drums to the foreground, and deemphasizing the atmospheric keyboard and backing vocal layering, making the '70s albums sound more clinical, like they were recorded instead in the late '80s. If you like that, the remixes are the way to go. If, like me, you actually enjoy the more atmospheric '70s layered mixing style, the remixes are kind of horrifying. That said, the Selling England one is far from the worst offender, but since the original mix is so gorgeous, why mess with it?

Just my 2 cents. I'm glad you're enjoying the album, in whatever mix or mastering you end up preferring!

[NorthNYMark]

In revisiting ... And Then There Were Three..., I'm experiencing polar opposites. There are wonderful things I had forgotten about, because I hadn't listened to the album in decades (such as the marvelously moving chorus in "Undertow," and the surprisingly successful "Many Too Many") and several IMO sub-par songs which, well, I was perfectly content to have forgotten (YMMV, but for me, "Scenes from a Night's Dream," "Burning Rope," "The Lady Lies," e.g.).

All that said, "Follow You, Follow Me" is sheer magic.

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I enjoy this album more than most Genesis fans seem to, though I understand why they find it disappointing. I too love "Undertow," as well as the glorious "Snowbound." Unlike you, I think "Burning Rope" is great as well, along with "Down and Out."  I'm less enamored with the more gimmicky tracks like "Ballad of Big," "Scenes from a Night's Dream," "Say It's All Right, Joe," etc. I very much miss Hackett's presence, and it would have been nice if Banks had used a wider variety of keyboard sounds; still, to me, this is the last Genesis album where they have that atmospheric folk/classical emphasis (traditionally their main calling card) to any significant degree, though I enjoy random individual tracks from their later albums.

[vandermolen]

I'm actually going to respectfully disagree with John and Karl above about the remixes (which is far more radical of a change than a mere remastering), and agree with those urging folks to hang onto the earliest CD masterings. As always, these things depend on personal tastes. Basically, the early (1980s) CD masterings are relatively straightforward presentations of the original mixes, which I enjoy greatly. They are warm and organic sounding, with lots of atmosphere. Some of the US versions were a bit too trebly, but the US Selling England luckily didn't suffer from that.. As a recording, Selling England gave up some of the churchy atmosphere of the band's earlier material in exchange for a more clean and clear production style (for example, replacing mellotrons and organs with moogs, and having fewer 12-string guitars and mysterious backing vocals); nevertheless, it still has a remarkably warm, analogue sound, with a particularly rich midrange (moog and guitar solos positively glow). The best way to experience it is on original UK vinyl mastered by George Peckham, IMHO, but as that is somewhat rare and pricey, those first CD pressings come reasonably close. The first round of CD remastering in the '90s produced what were called the "Definitive Edition" remasters. They aren't terrible, but use typical remastering methods of the period, including digital noise reduction and digital dynamic range compression. Aside from being possibly more easy to find, there's almost no reason to get these over the original CD masterings.

As to the most recent versions, they are complete remixes, and rather radical ones. A lot of folks love them, usually citing increased clarity. They certainly do offer that, but at a great cost, IMHO. First, they use even more dynamic range compression and smiley-face EQ (jacking up the bass and treble and hollowing out the midrange) then even the Definitive Edition remasters. (The worst offenders are the middle period [1976-1981] remixes, which are so compressed and screechy as to be nearly unlistenable, IMHO). Moreover, the remixing tends to focus on bringing the vocals and drums to the foreground, and deemphasizing the atmospheric keyboard and backing vocal layering, making the '70s albums sound more clinical, like they were recorded instead in the late '80s. If you like that, the remixes are the way to go. If, like me, you actually enjoy the more atmospheric '70s layered mixing style, the remixes are kind of horrifying. That said, the Selling England one is far from the worst offender, but since the original mix is so gorgeous, why mess with it?

Just my 2 cents. I'm glad you're enjoying the album, in whatever mix or mastering you end up preferring!

Thank you very much Mark for that extremely helpful analysis. I certainly won't be giving my 1985 transfer to the charity shop even if I go ahead and get the digital remix. I can always keep one in the car and one in the house. One other question to the Genesis fans here: which album should I listen to next?

[Karl Henning]

Thank you very much Mark for that extremely helpful analysis. I certainly won't be giving my 1985 transfer to the charity shop even if I go ahead and get the digital remix. I can always keep one in the car and one in the house. One other question to the Genesis fans here: which album should I listen to next?

I'll vote for The Lamb Lies Down on B'way, Jeffrey, which was actually the first Genesis album I got to know.

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[Mirror Image]

Thank you very much Mark for that extremely helpful analysis. I certainly won't be giving my 1985 transfer to the charity shop even if I go ahead and get the digital remix. I can always keep one in the car and one in the house. One other question to the Genesis fans here: which album should I listen to next?

What Mark doesn't mention is, while there is a warmth to the original issues and I agree that they do sound very good indeed, Nursery Cryme is plagued with problems such as distortion/clipping in The Return of the Giant Hogwood and The Fountain of Salmacis. Very unfortunate. This problem even persists in the 1994 Definitive Remaster issue (my least favorite remaster of the two I own). The 2007 remixes/remasters fix this problem in these Nursery Cryme pieces. Also, the original mix of The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway as well as it's 1994 remaster is quite dull sounding. Foxtrot, Selling England by the Pound, A Trick of the Tail, and Wind & Wuthering sound great in their original mixes with no remastering. Quite warm and excellent atmosphere as Mark points out. I still highly recommend the newer remixes/remasters, though. The original recordings are more difficult to track down, but I'm sure you can find them in the used market. Just be aware of the persistent problems in Nursery Cryme in original mix and 1994 remaster.

Where should you go next? Karl suggested The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and I'll have to disagree that this isn't the way to go just yet (even though The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is my favorite Genesis album). I would check out Foxtrot next.