J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Mandryka]

According to this review of CD 11 of Weinberger's recording

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-6981/

For some, the most interesting thing about this release will be organist Gerhard Weinberger's discussion of the relative merits of Silbermann organs--those constructed by Bach contemporary Gottfried Silbermann--for playing Bach's music. Although for decades it's been assumed that because Bach was the greatest organist of his time and was involved in many aspects of the organ building process, and because Silbermann was regarded as one of the greatest organ builders in the region of Germany where Bach lived and worked, the Silbermann instruments were ideal for Bach's music. Weinberger suggests that these assumptions in many cases are false--that in fact there are fundamental problems with Silbermann's philosophy of organ design, realized in significant structural components, that make performing many of Bach's works difficult if not impossible on at least some of these instruments. Specifically, this has to do with matters concerning lack of tonal independence in the pedal and lack of a "rich palette of foundation stops". No doubt Bach played these magnificent organs--there is well-documented evidence of such events in Dresden and Freiberg, for instance--but Weinberger makes a persuasive case for the likelihood that Bach preferred different instruments for his own music.

I have the booklet for the complete set but I just can't find the discussion alluded to in the review! Maybe it's just available in the release for CD 11 alone. Or maybe I've just overlooked it.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

According to this review of CD 11 of Weinberger's recording

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-6981/

I have the booklet for the complete set but I just can't find the discussion alluded to in the review! Maybe it's just available in the release for CD 11 alone. Or maybe I've just overlooked it.

Interestingly enough, Hans Joerg Albrecht told me a very similar thing just a few days ago, re: Bach not necessarily being overly fond of Silbermann organs.

[Marc]

Interestingly enough, Hans Joerg Albrecht told me a very similar thing just a few days ago, re: Bach not necessarily being overly fond of Silbermann organs.

I realize it sounds a bit boring, but even if Bach did not like certain organs, that would not stop me from liking them.

I.c. the questions of member Forever Electoral College: I think this is a list of organs which he probably likes in Bach.

Silbermanns in Freiberg (Domkirche, but also the Petrikirche)
Silbermann Dresden (Hofkirche, very spatial)
Schnitgers (et al) in Groningen (Martinikerk and Der Aa Kerk), Alkmaar (Laurenskerk), Zwolle (Grote of Michaëlskerk)
Garrels organ, Maassluis, NL
Schnitger in Hamburg (Jakobikirche)
Flentrop reconstructed baroque organ in Hamburg (Katharinenkirche)
Christian Müller organs in Haarlem and Leeuwarden, NL
Treutmann, Stiftskirche in Goslar-Grauhof
Raphaëlis & Lorentz organ in the cathedral of Roskilde (DK)
GoArt project Schnitger reproduction in the Örgryte New Church, Göteborg, Sweden
Ahrend organ in north German baroque style, San Simpliciano, Milan
Trost organ, Residenzschloß in Altenburg
Gabler organ, Basilica, Weingarten
JA Silbermann organ, Église Saint-Thomas, Strasbourg
Flentrop organ (baroque reconstruction), Duke University Chapel, Durham (North Carolina)

Of course, there are dozens and dozens more (especially in Germany) .... but I guess this would be a nice list to start with.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I realize it sounds a bit boring, but even if Bach did not like certain organs, that would not stop me from liking them.

And why should it?! The GDR Silbermann cycle, despite catching these instruments at a fairly low point in their modern lives, is one of my emotional favorites.

But it does dampen the claim or extreme eagerness to claim (as some might) that only Eastern Silbermann organs are proper for use with Bach.

I visited Weingarten on a reasonably recent biking-trip around Lake Constance. I had forgotten (for I must once have known) about the organ and took the substantial detour upon myself and my then-fiancee just because of the basilica. And when I stepped in and turned around it was an amazing revelation: Oh my, THIS is where I am!

[Marc]

And why should it?! The GDR Silbermann cycle, despite catching these instruments at a fairly low point in their modern lives, is one of my emotional favorites.

But it does dampen the claim or extreme eagerness to claim (as some might) that only Eastern Silbermann organs are proper for use with Bach.

Bach loved the North-German Hamburg organ(s), too, for instance. He only wasn't willing to donate a certain amount of Groschen in the church's money box, and therefore didn't get the Hamburg job.

I visited Weingarten on a reasonably recent biking-trip around Lake Constance. I had forgotten (for I must once have known) about the organ and took the substantial detour upon myself and my then-fiancee just because of the basilica. And when I stepped in and turned around it was an amazing revelation: Oh my, THIS is where I am!

Yeah, the Weingarten is a 'exquisite titbit' (for ear AND eye).

Just curious, btw: is the then-fiancee your now-wife, or did you fall in love with the Königin der Instrumente, right before her eyes, which made her go her own way whilst saying: "OK Jenschen, I got it, one of us three has got to go!"

[Harry]

Ha, USVA. The old one, in the Oude Boteringestraat?
Happy memories for me, too. But mainly related to movie-watching and debating about literature (and too much drinking afterwards).

Yes that's the one. Good memories for me too

[Marc]

Stefan Johannes Bleicher playing BWV 989 on the Schnitger (et al) organ of the Jacobi Kirche in Hamburg.
A beautiful display of the many stops and possibilities of this instrument.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYDLZDt9bUE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnitger_organ_(Hamburg)

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Just curious, btw: is the then-fiancee your now-wife, or did you fall in love with the Königin der Instrumente, right before her eyes, which made her go her own way whilst saying: "OK Jenschen, I got it, one of us three has got to go!"

Ha! Her words, precisely. No. As far as I wish to remember she said: "Quite alright, I see why you think her Queen, so long as I may be the princess." And she had no objections that the only music at our wedding party was a Bach Trio Sonata that I had transcribed for Viennese Schramml-music. :-)

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Great. Will look for recordings. Thanks a lot.

I realize it sounds a bit boring, but even if Bach did not like certain organs, that would not stop me from liking them.

I.c. the questions of member Forever Electoral College: I think this is a list of organs which he probably likes in Bach.

Silbermanns in Freiberg (Domkirche, but also the Petrikirche)
Silbermann Dresden (Hofkirche, very spatial)
Schnitgers (et al) in Groningen (Martinikerk and Der Aa Kerk), Alkmaar (Laurenskerk), Zwolle (Grote of Michaëlskerk)
Garrels organ, Maassluis, NL
Schnitger in Hamburg (Jakobikirche)
Flentrop reconstructed baroque organ in Hamburg (Katharinenkirche)
Christian Müller organs in Haarlem and Leeuwarden, NL
Treutmann, Stiftskirche in Goslar-Grauhof
Raphaëlis & Lorentz organ in the cathedral of Roskilde (DK)
GoArt project Schnitger reproduction in the Örgryte New Church, Göteborg, Sweden
Ahrend organ in north German baroque style, San Simpliciano, Milan
Trost organ, Residenzschloß in Altenburg
Gabler organ, Basilica, Weingarten
JA Silbermann organ, Église Saint-Thomas, Strasbourg
Flentrop organ (baroque reconstruction), Duke University Chapel, Durham (North Carolina)

Of course, there are dozens and dozens more (especially in Germany) .... but I guess this would be a nice list to start with.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Reminds me of the people who strongly favor California rollls over Edo-mae sushi, or New York Pizza over Pizza in Rome.
Also, I have a Russian friend who is bilingal. He prefers one of the English translations of Crime and Punishment to its original, Russian version.

And why should it?! The GDR Silbermann cycle, despite catching these instruments at a fairly low point in their modern lives, is one of my emotional favorites.

But it does dampen the claim or extreme eagerness to claim (as some might) that only Eastern Silbermann organs are proper for use with Bach.

I visited Weingarten on a reasonably recent biking-trip around Lake Constance. I had forgotten (for I must once have known) about the organ and took the substantial detour upon myself and my then-fiancee just because of the basilica. And when I stepped in and turned around it was an amazing revelation: Oh my, THIS is where I am!

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Reminds me of the people who strongly favor California rollls over Edo-mae sushi, or New York Pizza over Pizza in Rome Naples.
Also, I have a Russian friend who is bilingal. He prefers one of the English translations of Crime and Punishment to its original, Russian version.

I don't know about Crime & Punishment, but Nabokov's German "Lolita", in a translation supervised by Nabokov, takes the best of his own Russian original and his own English re-creation.

I think it's "The Saint" that was a flop in the original but hugely successful in its irreverent German dubbing?!

Happens, on occasion. And I would say that New York Pizza is probably on par with the original. New Yorkers made it an art; Neapolitans had to re-discover it when they realized that the rest of the world was looking at them as the source of something great. Pizza in regular Italian restaurants, however, is (or used to be, until maybe only 10 years ago) a disaster; it was considered tourist-trap food; a clichee; a poor man's meal.

[Marc]

Great. Will look for recordings. Thanks a lot.

I.c. the Flentrop in Durham, USA: you will probably enjoy this Contrapunctus 11 (from 00:59:28), played by Wolfgang Rübsam (issued on disc by Naxos).
To me, it's one of those many shattering, dramatic, dazzling and cathartic listening experiences that mister Bach's music can deliver... and it's addictive, too: after listening to it, I want to spend the rest of the day with him.
(I 'suffer' from this from about my 13th. )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LgkKgvsUao

Another fine Bach disc with this particular organ can be found in the Gothic catalogue: Joan Lippincott playing free works, a.o. BWV 565 and the ever fascinating 582.

https://www.amazon.com/Toccatas-Fugues-Johann-Sebastian-Bach/dp/B000003J9W/?tag=goodmusicguideco
https://www.gothic-catalog.com/Toccatas_and_Fugues_by_Bach_Lippincott_p/g-49093.htm

[Mandryka]

I don't know about Crime & Punishment, but Nabokov's German "Lolita", in a translation supervised by Nabokov, takes the best of his own Russian original and his own English re-creation.

I think it's "The Saint" that was a flop in the original but hugely successful in its irreverent German dubbing?!

Happens, on occasion. And I would say that New York Pizza is probably on par with the original. New Yorkers made it an art; Neapolitans had to re-discover it when they realized that the rest of the world was looking at them as the source of something great. Pizza in regular Italian restaurants, however, is (or used to be, until maybe only 10 years ago) a disaster; it was considered tourist-trap food; a clichee; a poor man's meal.

When Scott Moncrieff's English translation of A la recherche du temps perdu came out, it was very fashionable in St Germain to say that you preferred it to the original by Proust.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

When Scott Moncrieff's English translation of A la recherche du temps perdu came out, it was very fashionable in St Germain to say that you preferred it to the original by Proust.

I can so imagine it!

"Oh Dahlin', you absolutely must read it in the Moncrieff. It is really so much better, I'm afraid to say."

What a wonderful to humble-brag/lie that you've not only read it in the first place but in fact twice, in different languages.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Excuse me for extending the discussion to an irrelevant matter. There was a famous master of forgery copies of Ukiyoe painting a few centuries ago in Shogunate Japan. His skills of forgery were so respected and admired that some of his forgery works became to have higher prices than the originals, which were copied by them. A few collectors were disappointed when they found that the works they had thought his forgery works and they bought were actually genuine originals.

[Jo498]

And being so well-versed in French to claim that the translation was better. I think only a fairly poorly written book could in principle improve in translation. E.g. Dan Brown (or maybe a notch above Dan Brown) but not Dante, Goethe, Proust etc.
Even in the cases when a genius translates something of very high quality as might be the case by some classics translated by well established poets and writers, possibly the German Shakespeare by Schlegel or some translations of Homer or other antique stuff, it cannot really get "better".
Nabokov is a special case, of course, because both versions would be originals in a sense. I somehow thought that he had already switched to writing in English with Lolita.

As far as organs are concerned, the different building principles and traditions are a beautiful cultural heritage of their own and therefore they have a right to exist and to be continued, even if they are not ideal for Bach (or some other music).
One would also expect that music by Bach that usually does very well in arrangement for totally different instruments would horribly suffer by not being played on the middle/north German instruments it was intended for.

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

I don't know about Crime & Punishment, but Nabokov's German "Lolita", in a translation supervised by Nabokov, takes the best of his own Russian original and his own English re-creation.

I think it's "The Saint" that was a flop in the original but hugely successful in its irreverent German dubbing?!

Happens, on occasion. And I would say that New York Pizza is probably on par with the original. New Yorkers made it an art; Neapolitans had to re-discover it when they realized that the rest of the world was looking at them as the source of something great. Pizza in regular Italian restaurants, however, is (or used to be, until maybe only 10 years ago) a disaster; it was considered tourist-trap food; a clichee; a poor man's meal.

Tell you what--one of the very BEST pizzas I ever had was in St. Petersburg Russia, a restaurant called La Strada two doors down from our hotel (Hotel Aster) on Bolshaya Konnyushenaya. Salmon pizza actually. I could not care less whether this is "authentic" (and yes, I've had it in Rome and NY as well)! 

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

The organ sounds great. I will visit there. Since I am not a big fan of Rubsam, it is difficult to enjoy the music though the organ sound is good. Youtube carries all the songs by Lippincott, and they are wonderful. I will look for a CD. Thanks a lot.

P.s. Is the organ a little bright side? A lot of reverb as well.

I.c. the Flentrop in Durham, USA: you will probably enjoy this Contrapunctus 11 (from 00:59:28), played by Wolfgang Rübsam (issued on disc by Naxos).
To me, it's one of those many shattering, dramatic, dazzling and cathartic listening experiences that mister Bach's music can deliver... and it's addictive, too: after listening to it, I want to spend the rest of the day with him.
(I 'suffer' from this from about my 13th. )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LgkKgvsUao

Another fine Bach disc with this particular organ can be found in the Gothic catalogue: Joan Lippincott playing free works, a.o. BWV 565 and the ever fascinating 582.

https://www.amazon.com/Toccatas-Fugues-Johann-Sebastian-Bach/dp/B000003J9W/?tag=goodmusicguideco
https://www.gothic-catalog.com/Toccatas_and_Fugues_by_Bach_Lippincott_p/g-49093.htm

[Marc]

The organ sounds great. I will visit there. Since I am not a big fan of Rubsam, it is difficult to enjoy the music though the organ sound is good. Youtube carries all the songs by Lippincott, and they are wonderful. I will look for a CD. Thanks a lot.

P.s. Is the organ a little bright side? A lot of reverb as well.

A lot of reverb, yes. A bit too much for me, to be honest... but I can stand it.
I.c. brightness: the organ was built with North European baroque organs as example. In my experience, these organs mostly sound brighter than the Southern instruments.
I'm generalizing now, and maybe other members will think otherwise: the 'strong' points of the northern organs are the bright principal stops (adding a 'bonus' to the clarity), the strong points of the southern organs are the warm and 'granular' reeds.
But, again, this is a very generalizing generalisation.

I only mentioned this one American organ, but there are more well-built (baroque) reconstructions around the country, built by firms like Fisk, Fritts, Brombaugh and Noack.
To check out some of them, here's a nice (limited) integral boxset of 11 cd's, played by George Ritchie.

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Organ-Works-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B000GW8RFC/?tag=goodmusicguideco

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I only mentioned this one American organ, but there are more well-built (baroque) reconstructions around the country, built by firms like Fisk, Fritts, Brombaugh and Noack.
To check out some of them, here's a nice (limited) integral boxset of 11 cd's, played by George Ritchie.

http://a-fwd.to/1b4JFkB

Oh, I do like that set a lot! I don't love it, perhaps, and I certainly don't turn to it often enough... but whenever I do, I am totally charmed by the humble beauty of these modest-yet-very-neat instruments. So everything NOT that one might, at first and admittedly superficially, imagine with a set of "AMERICAN" organs (i.e. some perversely virtuosic blare-fest a la Virgil Fox).