All other composers are inferior to Beethoven

[karlhenning]

Finally somebody who sees the truth.

Perhaps you could speak it out for all us benighted ones?

Most of the things that matter in art, are not the sort of thing for which we have measuring tools.

That, "Josquin," is the truth.  Whether you see it, or no.

[Bonehelm]

Let's try this out.

How do we objectively compare the valuation of the following pairs of musical works?--

1.A. Bach St Matthew Passion
1.B. Brahms German Requiem

2.A. Beethoven Symphony No. 7
2.B. Beethoven Symphony No. 8

3.A. Chopin Prelude in E Minor, Opus 28 No. 4
3.B. Tallis, Spem in alium

4.A. Brahms Double Concerto for Violin and Cello in A Minor, Opus 102
4.B. Nielsen Maskarade

What's your point? I was saying that whether a piece of art is good or not depends on the person you ask. I might like LvB's 7th more than his 8th but you might like the 8th better.

Doesn't "objectively" mean personally? Maybe you misunderstood my post because I used the word incorrectly. In that case, I apologize.

[max]

I am also sick of these "this composer is better than that composer, no?'' threads. Art can only be measured objectively, one's favourite piece could be another's nightmare. One's desert island disc could be another's P.O.S. So you can't say this is superior than that just because you personally like A more than B.



This sentiment only makes sense 'subjectively' through the eyes or ears of the beholder in short.

Reading through even a fraction of the these posts, it's clear that it is subjectivity which rules and boy ain't some of it weird!!




























With that said, though, Elgar is the worst composer next to Dittersdorf. Too vibrationally simple.

[jochanaan]

We accept all that.

All we ask in return is that you accept that Beethoven is the greatest.  Fair enough?

Fair enough--when we've defined "greatest." 

[karlhenning]

What's your point? I was saying that whether a piece of art is good or not depends on the person you ask. I might like LvB's 7th more than his 8th but you might like the 8th better.

Doesn't "objectively" mean personally? Maybe you misunderstood my post because I used the word incorrectly. In that case, I apologize.

No worries;  objectively actually means impersonally, impartially.  (And then, we get into the long discussion over the extent to which artistic matters are ajudged objectively . . . which is to say, neither entirely, nor to no extent at all.)

So, you will now have divined, my point is how do we impersonally determine whether the Bach St Matthew Passion or the Brahms German Requiem is the 'greater' work?  But now, I believe, you are likely on much the same side of this rhetorical question as am I.

[Great Gable]

Doesn't "objectively" mean personally? Maybe you misunderstood my post because I used the word incorrectly. In that case, I apologize.

Wrong way round. Subjectively means from a personal standpoint. Objectively means not influenced by personal opinion but governed by fact.

[Bonehelm]

No worries;  objectively actually means impersonally, impartially.  (And then, we get into the long discussion over the extent to which artistic matters are ajudged objectively . . . which is to say, neither entirely, nor to no extent at all.)

So, you will now have divined, my point is how do we impersonally determine whether the Bach St Matthew Passion or the Brahms German Requiem is the 'greater' work?  But now, I believe, you are likely on much the same side of this rhetorical question as am I.

Ok, sorry for misleading you in the first place, I am on the same boat as you are.

And thanks Great Gable for reminding me of my mistake.

[Great Gable]

Well you did ask

[MN Dave]

Enough about Beethoven already.  It's making me sick.

Then stay out of the thread, genius.

[karlhenning]

Well, that was easy! 

[Haffner]

Then stay out of the thread, genius.

Dave is really good at being helpful.

[MN Dave]

Dave is really good at being helpful.

0:)

[Rod Corkin]

I agree about the (surprising) weakness of Mozart's operas but Mozart is still greater composer than Beethoven imo. Händel is above both.

So you agree Mozart's operas are weak. I ask you then to consider the principle formal music genres where the two are comparable - solo, duo and trio sonatas, string quartets, Symphonies, Masses, concertos, etc. After assessing each one in turn you still think Mozart comes out on top?? As I said before, even just considering Beethoven's works before the age of 36, where is Mozart's Kreutzer, Appassionata, Eroica etc etc? As I also said in my opinion Beethoven was on a clearly higher artistic level with works such as these, works that have never been surpassed since by anyone else of any age. And then what about Beethoven's works from the age of 36 onwards! How can Mozart still be the superior in you mind?? I find this unfathomable.

PS Happy Christmas from all at ClassicalMusicMayhem!

[DavidW]

I agree that all other composers are inferior to Beethoven when it comes to Mercury levels in the body.   Or was that just a rumor about Mercury poisoning?

[longears]

I agree about the (surprising) weakness of Mozart's operas but Mozart is still greater composer than Beethoven imo. Händel is above both.

So you agree Mozart's operas are weak. I ask you then to consider the principle formal music genres where the two are comparable - solo, duo and trio sonatas, string quartets, Symphonies, Masses, concertos, ect. After assessing each one in turn you still think Mozart comes out on top?? As I said before, even just considering Beethoven's works before the age of 36, where is Mozart's Kreutzer, Appassionata, Eroica etc etc? As I also said in my opinion Beethoven was on a clearly higher artistic level with works such as these, works that have never been surpassed since by anyone else of any age. And then what about Beethoven's works from the age of 36 onwards! How can Mozart still be the superior in you mind?? I find this unfathomable.

Please pass the popcorn and bubbly water.  Karl, did you bring the chips?

(I regard both Mozart and Beethoven as towering musical geniuses whose achievements have been equalled by very few and exceeded by none...and I'm scarcely alone in sharing an opinion nearly as universal as holding the earth to be a spherical body revolving in space around a single star.   Anyone who thinks Mozart's operas are weak has by virtue of expressing that one opinion demonstrated unequivocally that he is an utter moron whose views may have entertainment value but otherwise should be completely disregarded.)

Mozart died before reaching the age of 35 and yet left an unexcelled legacy.  Where are Beethoven's G minor symphony, his D minor piano concerto, his Le Nozze, his Requiem, his clarinet concerto?  Could Beethoven have achieved what he did in the symphonies, the quartets, the piano sonatas, without Mozart first blazing the trail?  None of which is to suggest that Beethoven was less than Mozart, any more than the reverse.  Both were artists of the highest order, universal recognition of whose greatness is unlikely to be challenged by the opinions of a couple of dolts with internet access.

Merry Christmas, indeed, and may Santa bring common sense and wit to all in such dire need.

[Haffner]

Please pass the popcorn and bubbly water.  Karl, did you bring the chips?

(I regard both Mozart and Beethoven as towering musical geniuses whose achievements have been equalled by very few and exceeded by none...and I'm scarcely alone in sharing an opinion nearly as universal as holding the earth to be a spherical body revolving in space around a single star.   Anyone who thinks Mozart's operas are weak has by virtue of expressing that one opinion demonstrated unequivocally that he is an utter moron whose views may have entertainment value but otherwise should be completely disregarded.)

Mozart died before reaching the age of 35 and yet left an unexcelled legacy.  Where are Beethoven's G minor symphony, his D minor piano concerto, his Le Nozze, his Requiem, his clarinet concerto?  Could Beethoven have achieved what he did in the symphonies, the quartets, the piano sonatas, without Mozart first blazing the trail?  None of which is to suggest that Beethoven was less than Mozart, any more than the reverse.  Both were artists of the highest order, universal recognition of whose greatness is unlikely to be challenged by the opinions of a couple of dolts with internet access.

Merry Christmas, indeed, and may Santa bring common sense and wit to all in such dire need.

Well put, and Merry Christmas to you!


Beethoven's ultimate achievements in the string quartet, choral, and Symphonic genres are truly staggering. Yet I think I would be impossible to fully comprehend a work like the Eroica without hearing how much Mozart (the "Jupiter") and Haydn (the "London"-era Symphonies) permeate it.

And I hear Mozart in all of Beethoven's Piano Concerto themes...even many of the cadenzas. The 4th movement in LvB's 4th Piano Concerto, and the 4th movement in the 1st Symphony, could most easily fool anyone into believing they were written by Mozart.

Beethoven himself, at a concert playing Mozart's C minor PC, told his fellow composer friend "we'll never write anything like that, will we?"

He never did, at least in that genre.

[Gurn Blanston]

I agree that all other composers are inferior to Beethoven when it comes to Mercury levels in the body.   Or was that just a rumor about Mercury poisoning?

Lead.

But Schubert was full of mercury, they used it to try and cure his syphilis. Yikes! 



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Now playing:
Haydn - Trio 1790 - Hob XV:24 Trio in D 1st mvmt - Allegro

[karlhenning]

Please pass the popcorn and bubbly water.  Karl, did you bring the chips?

Soft pretzels!

[Rod Corkin]

Well put, and Merry Christmas to you!


Beethoven's ultimate achievements in the string quartet, choral, and Symphonic genres are truly staggering. Yet I think I would be impossible to fully comprehend a work like the Eroica without hearing how much Mozart (the "Jupiter") and Haydn (the "London"-era Symphonies) permeate it.

And I hear Mozart in all of Beethoven's Piano Concerto themes...even many of the cadenzas. The 4th movement in LvB's 4th Piano Concerto, and the 4th movement in the 1st Symphony, could most easily fool anyone into believing they were written by Mozart.

Beethoven himself, at a concert playing Mozart's C minor PC, told his fellow composer friend "we'll never write anything like that, will we?"

He never did, at least in that genre.

With Mozart you hear a whole host of other composers!! You think he was beyond influence?? The Beethoven/Mozart connection is totally overplayed, on average he sounds far closer to Haydn the Mozart, which means of course these composers has only a marginal influence on Beethoven. Beethoven's sentiment if anything harks back to an earlier time than these guys.

I fail to see this connection with the Jupiter and the Eroica, in fact I have yet to read any evidence that Beethoven even heard the Jupiter. The Eroica was a natural expansion of the form from Beethoven and is a far more polished piece to my mind. The much vaunted fugue I think is actually the weakest movement, its a bloody awful piece, especially when the repeat is observed the monotony is just too much. Mozart and the observation of repeats are rarely a welcome combination, another reason why Mozart is a totally overrated composer. I have never heard a single movement of any piece of Beethoven that could fool anyone into believe it was a Mozart piece, so I am having serious doubts about your cognitive faculties. I feel no need to discuss Haydn's symphonies in the context of this topic.

Concerning the concerto anyone who thinks that Mozart composed anything of the standard of B's 4th is clearly deluded. Beethoven was being his usual respectful self with that comment. I presume you do not want to read the later comments from Beethoven whereby he stated he no longer believed Mozart was the greatest composer...?

[71 dB]

So you agree Mozart's operas are weak.

Agree? So few agree with me about that! 

I ask you then to consider the principle formal music genres where the two are comparable - solo, duo and trio sonatas, string quartets, Symphonies, Masses, concertos, etc. After assessing each one in turn you still think Mozart comes out on top??

Yes, Mozart is above Beethoven who's operatic works are even weaker (Fidelio => yuk!). Mozart is better (brilliant) with Concertos, Beethoven is better (the best) with String Quartets...

As I said before, even just considering Beethoven's works before the age of 36, where is Mozart's Kreutzer, Appassionata, Eroica etc etc?

What kind of question is that? Where is Beethoven's Mass in C minor or Requiem?

As I also said in my opinion Beethoven was on a clearly higher artistic level with works such as these, works that have never been surpassed since by anyone else of any age. And then what about Beethoven's works from the age of 36 onwards! How can Mozart still be the superior in you mind?? I find this unfathomable.

You enjoy Beethoven more. I enjoy Mozart more. It's a matter of taste. Anyway, I enjoy Elgar more than these two combined!