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Brexit

Started by vandermolen, May 01, 2017, 10:14:35 PM

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North Star

Quote from: Mandryka on December 04, 2019, 11:07:48 AM
Amusing questionnaire here

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/survey3d.html

This is me



Your Economic position is 23° Right, your National position is 75° International, and your Social position is 79° Liberal.
I didn't know I was so conservative about money, apart from my own..
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

My photographs on Flickr


Florestan

#1182
Okay, I took the test again. I took questions at their face value. In each question specific to UK I substituted Romania for it. In some questions unspecific to any nation, I answered with Romania's experience and interest in mind (the way I see it, of course). Some questions I answered in Strongly, some others in Mildy (both agreement and disagreement). No Neutral, no Don't know. Last but not least I answered in complete earnest.

My result is below.

For comparison, the way I would honestly describe myself is thus:

Economic: center-right
National: centrist
Social: conservative

The Economic and Social scales match. The big discrepancy in the National scale is probably a result of replacing UK's experience and interests with Romania's.

The test says that the tribe closest to [my] own attitudes is Kind Young Capitalists. Well, at 47 coming December 13th I'm not young anymore; but kind I am (in real life, I mean; here on GMG I have been unkind many times, but to my defense I plead always having remorses and many times apologizing); and if by "capitalist" they mean a staunch supporter of a free market restrained by rule of law and Christian morality, then I suppose I can live perfectly happy within that tribe.

EDIT: I see my Social score is identical to Jo's. I'm not surprised. I'm even glad.
"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

Christo

I took the test AFAI could do it, with a British perspective on things I often don't share here (in the Netherlands). I'm not surprised the results are rather different from how I would place myself, partly caused by a difference in political culture, partly by differences in definitions or key terms. In short, if I were free to identify myself in this impossible spectre, I would rather claim to be:

Economic:  centrist
National:    non-globalist, but feel strongly connected with normal people everywhere, also at home.
Social:       democrat (social-democrat or christian-democrat) rather than neo-liberal or 'conservative' (in the distorted, opposite meaning nowadays in common use among wealthy anarchists in the Anglo-Saxon world i.e.)

But my "official" result is  :D :

Economic:  70° Left   
National:    84° International   
Social:        9° Liberal
... music is not only an 'entertainment', nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

Florestan

Quote from: Christo on December 08, 2019, 02:51:44 PM
I took the test AFAI could do it, with a British perspective on things I often don't share here (in the Netherlands). I'm not surprised the results are rather different from how I would place myself, partly caused by a difference in political culture, partly by differences in definitions or key terms. In short, if I were free to identify myself in this impossible spectre, I would rather claim to be:

Economic:  centrist
National:    non-globalist, but feel strongly connected with normal people everywhere, also at home.
Social:       democrat (social-democrat or christian-democrat) rather than neo-liberal or 'conservative' (in the distorted, opposite meaning nowadays in common use among wealthy anarchists in the Anglo-Saxon world i.e.)

But my "official" result is  :D :

Economic:  70° Left   
National:    84° International   
Social:        9° Liberal

Seems like both Orthodox (I) and Calvinist (you) Christianity are "very strongly globalist".  :laugh:


"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

Christo

Quote from: Florestan on December 08, 2019, 03:02:58 PM
Seems like both Orthodox (I) and Calvinist (you) Christianity are "very strongly globalist".  :laugh:
Exactly, though I fear that Jewish & other normal members here suffer from a similar disability (something with your neighbour).  8)
... music is not only an 'entertainment', nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

The new erato

Your Economic position is 8° Left, your National position is 21° International, and your Social position is 55° Liberal.

You are economically moderate, mildly globalist, and strongly socially liberal.

Que

After Boris' major victory, Brexit is certain and the UK will leave the European Union by the 31st of January.
But the UK will enter into the limbo of a transition period till the end of 2020.
Tory voters have supported a Brexit without knowing its destiny.
The agonising dilemmas on extensions and possible relationships with the EU are going to return in full force.
This was only the end of the beginning.....

Chris Grey offers a rather grimm outlook:

The Brexit dystopia bequeathed by this election

Q

vandermolen

Quote from: Que on December 13, 2019, 12:12:42 PM
After Boris' major victory, Brexit is certain and the UK will leave the European Union by the 31st of January.
But the UK will enter into the limbo of a transition period till the end of 2020.
Tory voters have supported a Brexit without knowing its destiny.
The agonising dilemmas on extensions and possible relationships with the EU are going to return in full force.
This was only the end of the beginning.....

Chris Grey offers a rather grimm outlook:

The Brexit dystopia bequeathed by this election

Q

Thanks for posting this. The point about the 'fake bonhomie' concealing the underlying nastiness rings especially true I think.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

dissily Mordentroge

I'm at the stage of having being bored silly by the entire Brexit saga. It all leaves me puzzled though as to why so little public discussion has focused on the strangulating complexity and stupidity of European bureaucracy. Instance, many electronics manufactures no longer export to the Common Market due to major alterations required to their designs often pretending to be for 'public safety'. Not only do importers to the European Union suffer from Brussels strictures. Farmers are subject to pointless requirements such as being restricted for instance to only using an 'approved' range of seeds. The list could go on and on.

J.A.W.

#1190
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 14, 2019, 02:45:09 PM
I'm at the stage of having being bored silly by the entire Brexit saga. It all leaves me puzzled though as to why so little public discussion has focused on the strangulating complexity and stupidity of European bureaucracy. Instance, many electronics manufactures no longer export to the Common Market due to major alterations required to their designs often pretending to be for 'public safety'. Not only do importers to the European Union suffer from Brussels strictures. Farmers are subject to pointless requirements such as being restricted for instance to only using an 'approved' range of seeds. The list could go on and on.

Just a technical remark: the EU is a single market, not a common market - there is a difference. To quote a definition: a common market is usually referred to as the first stage towards the creation of a single market. It usually is built upon a free trade area with no tariffs for goods and relatively free movement of capital and of services, but not so advanced in reduction of non-tariff trade barriers.
Hans

dissily Mordentroge

Quote from: J.A.W. on December 14, 2019, 04:44:00 PM
Just a technical remark: the EU is a single market, not a common market - there is a difference. To quote a definition: a common market is usually referred to as the first stage towards the creation of a single market. It usually is built upon a free trade area with no tariffs for goods and relatively free movement of capital and of services, but not so advanced in reduction of non-tariff trade barriers.
I'm sure you're correct but why is this entity so frequently referred to by the media as the Common Market?

Jo498

The common market was a predecessor structure in 70s and 80s Europe, wasn't it?
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

vandermolen

Quote from: Jo498 on December 14, 2019, 11:49:11 PM
The common market was a predecessor structure in 70s and 80s Europe, wasn't it?

I seem to recall that the EEC, the forerunner of the EU, was often referred to as the common market.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

dissily Mordentroge

Quote from: vandermolen on December 14, 2019, 11:51:32 PM
I seem to recall that the EEC, the forerunner of the EU, was often referred to as the common market.
The term 'Common Market' sounds like some form of (utopian?) unregulated free enterprise. The European Union is so strangled with needless bureaucracy it's the opposite. The mere fact one can move money and people across national borders within the EU appears to have disguised the monster of central control .

vandermolen

Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 15, 2019, 12:13:19 AM
The term 'Common Market' sounds like some form of (utopian?) unregulated free enterprise. The European Union is so strangled with needless bureaucracy it's the opposite. The mere fact one can move money and people across national borders within the EU appears to have disguised the monster of central control .

We should, as I have mentioned before, have stayed in EFTA (European Free Trade Association) which I recall as being a less political organisation than the EEC/EU:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

dissily Mordentroge

Quote from: vandermolen on December 15, 2019, 12:51:47 AM
We should, as I have mentioned before, have stayed in EFTA (European Free Trade Association) which I recall as being a less political organisation than the EEC/EU:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association
It may have made some things easier but you would still have had to jump multiple bureaucratic hoops to import English goods into Europe.
If the EFTA still exists I can't imagine how they could manage to work around the fools in Brussels anyway.

Que

#1197
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 15, 2019, 12:13:19 AM
The term 'Common Market' sounds like some form of (utopian?) unregulated free enterprise. The European Union is so strangled with needless bureaucracy it's the opposite. The mere fact one can move money and people across national borders within the EU appears to have disguised the monster of central control .

The European Single Market (explanation here) was actually an idea that the UK came up with, and had pushed for over decades...  It signifies a high level of economic integration that requires common rules. Common rules require common decisions. Common decisions require a centralised decision making process.

Important decisions are made by the member states in Brussels, but the notion the the whole of Europe is "centrally controlled" from Brussels by scary, power hungry bureaucrats is utter nonsense. The member states, particularly the larger one, are the ones in political control. I guess I do not need to spell out which country/ies I am talking about? It's not my own country, I can tell you...  ;)

Countries that do not want to join this  common, centralised decision making process but still want a high level of economical integration with the EU, end up as "rule takers" (Norway, Switzerland).  The alternative is a lower level of economic integration with the EU or none at all. This is the choice the UK will have to make.

Q

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/

dissily Mordentroge

Quote from: Que on December 15, 2019, 01:16:13 AM
The European Single Market (explanation here) was actually an idea that the UK came up with, and had pushed for over decades...  It signifies a high level of economic integration that requires common rules. Common rules require common decisions. Common decisions require a centralised decision making process.

Important decisions are made by the member states in Brussels, but the notion the the whole of Europe is "centrally controlled" from Brussels by scary, power hungry bureaucrats is utter nonsense. The member states, particularly the larger one, are the ones in political control. I guess I do not need to spell out which country/ies I am talking about? It's not my own country, I can tell you...  ;)

Countries that do not want to join this  common, centralised decision making process but still want a high level of economical integration with the EU, end up as "rule takers" (Norway, Switzerland).  The alternative is a lower level of economic integration with the EU or none at all. This is the choice the UK will have to make.

Q

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/
There are common rules and there are common rules. Most of what Brussells has imposed strangles innovation and free trade. Instance, try and produce and sell heritage variety seeds in Europe.

Jo498

For me the core point of many modern countries (including the EU, although it is not a country) is that they seem to combine "worst of both worlds". It has both overbearing or stifling bureaucracy and regulations (the worst of "big government" and the surveillance options are "improved" every day) as well as the worst of "open borders", free trade and capitalism, e.g. Ireland, Luxembourg, even the Netherlands serving as tax havens, free mobility to exploit the cheapest workers from eastern and southeastern Europe (including brain drain of doctors and nurses that are now missing in Bulgaria and as the worst part trafficking girls from the Balkan states to German brothels). Similarly, it has the worst of corrupt, overpaid bureaucrats (often politicians not bearable anymore in their home countries because of scandals or general idiocy) and more lobbyists dictacting laws and rules that should benefit our corporate overlords than one could imagine.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal