Coronavirus thread

[Todd]

the vaccines will be improved all the time too.

What does this mean?  The history of flu vaccines, well publicized and freely available, indicates otherwise.  Sometimes a vaccine is effective, sometimes it is not.  Blind faith in science is as dangerous as blind faith in religion. 

[Florestan]

Yes, the basic discussion in this is that the very introduction of any sort of vaccine pass would be illegal, since holders of it shouldn't and couldn't be given any privileges, in any form. Only specific laws regarding mandatory vaccines in some circumstances should be allowed, though some oppose this too. But then, for one thing, a vaccine pass could also be incorporated into these laws.

All these legal and lawful considerations are very fine --- yet I'm willing to bet that it won't be too long before they will be discarded altogether, and a digital vaccination passport will be required for doing pretty much everything, or else be confined to virtual house arrest.

Will you be okay with that?

[Florestan]

Blind faith in science is as dangerous as blind faith in religion.

Thrice amen!

[Todd]

yet I'm willing to bet that it won't be too long before they will be discarded altogether, and a digital vaccination passport will be required for doing pretty much everything, or else be confined to virtual house arrest.

Israel is launching Covid immunity passports. Here's what they allow you to do

[Florestan]

Israel is launching Covid immunity passports. Here's what they allow you to do

[Mandryka]

What does this mean?  The history of flu vaccines, well publicized and freely available, indicates otherwise.  Sometimes a vaccine is effective, sometimes it is not.  Blind faith in science is as dangerous as blind faith in religion.

This may show the different possibilities vis-a-vis vaccines

[Todd]

This may show the different possibilities vis-a-vis vaccines

Global herd immunity is years away - best case.  Until all countries achieve herd immunity, new mutations will arise, and protections afforded the vaccinated in wealthy countries - which are and will be real - will not allow everyone to get back to life circa 2019.  Governments at all levels need to start formulating public health responses to deal with endemic Covid.  It's going to take a long time to administer 12.8 billion doses of vaccine.  (Probably fewer as the less effective single dose vaccine will be more practical in many low income countries.) 

[MusicTurner]

All these legal and lawful considerations are very fine --- yet I'm willing to bet that it won't be too long before they will be discarded altogether, and a digital vaccination passport will be required for doing pretty much everything, or else be confined to virtual house arrest.

Will you be okay with that?

You seem convinced about these dystopic future developments, meaning that your or my opinion don't mean anything anyway, since we'd both have to accept, whatever the differences and nuances. A milder form of a vaccine pass than what you're suggesting (house arrests certainly won't take place, at least not in my country) could become a reality. However there's the supranational level obviously influencing decisions as well. I'd probably be more for also having possible alternatives of mandatory testing, when necessary (for getting access to some places), with a vaccine pass facilitating the process. But it's difficult to know what the future circumstances will be, and what knowledge and problems we'll have.

[Florestan]

You seem convinced about these dystopic future developments

I am not. As long as France and Germany are against (and they are), I am confident such tyranny will not pass.

[drogulus]

     It's common for vaccines to improve. The target, however, moves, so the improvement is in keeping the vaccines effective as the viruses evolve.

[DavidW]

Holy cow!  I'm gone for a few hours and we're talking about locking people in their homes like they did with the black death!

I was saying it as a suggestion not let's roll out fascist policies across the globe. 

I agree with Todd that we are a long ways way from herd immunity.  I think that is mostly because the lion's share of vaccines go to a handful of countries leaving most of the world with almost nothing.  It will take a very long time to get to all of those countries.

[Todd]

Policies favoring national acquisition and vaccination ahead of global vaccination efforts are eminently sensible from a national perspective - and of course I will benefit when I can actually receive a vaccine sometime in Q2, Q3, or Q4 (depending on who's talking) - but that is only part of the cause of the long term delay in achieving global herd immunity.  The headline numbers - the EU doubling spending to €1 billion and the US dropping $4 billion on Covax to muster 2 billion doses - is just too small in scale.  Bolder action and more spending is needed from all high income countries.  Leaders should look to the example of George W Bush and PEPFAR, and then come up with an accelerated version.  If necessary, the US should just pony up and pay for it all.  Who cares if it costs the US alone $50 billion?  There will be logistical hurdles, as well, but those are easier to address with more resources. 

[MusicTurner]

I am not. As long as France and Germany are against (and they are), I am confident such tyranny will not pass.

Good, so the betting was cancelled.

We have a general, mandatory testing before going to the hospital or the doctor, keeping such institutions relatively virus-free. I think that makes sense, and that it's not tyranny. There hasn't been mentioning of people refusing that in our press, and what they do about them, but the medical, ethical principles probably mean that they'd have to treat critically sick anyway, under some extra-protected circumstances.

[Holden]

There is a lot of talk about vaccines preventing transmission and as we know from the yearly 'flu vaccines, this is not the case. Your flu shot might prevent you from getting it but it's just as likely to minimise the effects. The objective of the three Covid vaccines is the same. A quote from John Hopkins University website

In general, most vaccines do not completely prevent infection but do prevent the infection from spreading within the body and from causing disease.

The hope (and it's a strong one) is that these vaccines will turn Covid from pandemic to endemic. The first shots in Qld are being given from tomorrow morning in my home city Gold Coast. According to the rollout plan there will be 6.8 million Aussies who will get the jab before I do but I have no problem with that as they need it more than me. They are starting with Pfizer but I'll probably end up with the Astrazeneca.

[DavidW]

On a smaller note (man I really accidentally kicked the hornet's yesterday) when it is time for me to be vaccinated they are coming right to my school.  I don't have to go anywhere.

[Todd]

I don't have to go anywhere.

Convenient.  I will have to drive up to several whole miles and wait in line.  I'm hoping that 24 hour vaccination is available when I qualify, so I can go at 3:00 AM to avoid crowds.

[DavidW]

Smart.  If I had to, I would do the same mostly because I suffer from insomnia and frequently wake too early.  Might as well use it to my advantage.

[MusicTurner]

The question about vaccines reducing one's ability to transmit the infection to others has not been investigated enough yet, or the differences between the vaccines in that respect. But the most current view seems to be that they likely have at least some, or maybe a significant, effect. Concerning the parallel to flu vaccines, the point is made that covid-vaccines work more effectively on an individual, than flu-vaccines do, which will also influence the ability to spread the virus.

[Todd]

Concerning the parallel to flu vaccines, the point is made that covid-vaccines work more effectively on an individual, than flu-vaccines do, which will also influence the ability to spread the virus.

There is not enough evidence to make such a claim. 

[prémont]

There is not enough evidence to make such a claim.

Yes, that's right. We have no evidence which says that people, who are vaccinated and gets a milder infection, do not transmit the disease to others. Theoretically though they will excrete lesser quanta of virus and therefore tend to be less contagious .