Coronavirus thread

[Madiel]

Here is an abridged version of the transcripts from when Djokovic was interviewed when he arrived in Australia.  From what I read of it, it wasn't handled well by the border authority.  How was Novak supposed to get ahold of anyone at 4 a.m. (like Tennis Australia or anyone at the Victorian government or his agent?) to see if he could get what they wanted?  I know that they ended up (or were supposed to) extending the deadline to get ahold of further information/documentation to 8:30 a.m.  Curious as to what Madiel makes of this.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/i-don-t-understand-what-djokovic-told-border-force-at-the-airport-20220110-p59n80.html#comments

PD

Oh dear.

The really key bit is early on. He believes, wrongly, that when there were 2 medical panels this meant one was Victorian government and one was federal government.

When really one was Tennis Australia and one was Victorian government.

Then later he's switching to saying okay it was Victorian government making decisions. Also not really correct when it comes to the border.

The whole question of timing is an interesting one. On a level of basic principle you are supposed to have an opportunity to be properly heard on decisions that affect you. And that's pretty much why the judge decided the process was flawed.

On the other hand, though, I suspect the  federal government officials didn't see the point. How could Tennis Australia actually fix the problem? They in fact created the problem. All Tennis Australia would do is repeat "we gave him an exemption and got permission from Victoria", and the response would be "so what?".

So he should've been given a better hearing. He wasn't because the officials involved had worked out that further information wasn't going to make a federal medical panel magically spring into existence.

[Madiel]

Like paying taxes: Rules are for little people.

It would be more accurate to say that access to lawyers, who can ensure that governments follow rules, is not for little people.

[Karl Henning]

It would be more accurate to say that access to lawyers, who can ensure that governments follow rules, is not for little people.

Accepted as emended.

[Holden]

Oh dear.

The really key bit is early on. He believes, wrongly, that when there were 2 medical panels this meant one was Victorian government and one was federal government.

When really one was Tennis Australia and one was Victorian government.

Then later he's switching to saying okay it was Victorian government making decisions. Also not really correct when it comes to the border.

On the other hand, though, I suspect the  federal government officials didn't see the point. How could Tennis Australia actually fix the problem? They in fact created the problem. All Tennis Australia would do is repeat "we gave him an exemption and got permission from Victoria", and the response would be "so what?".

So he should've been given a better hearing. He wasn't because the officials involved had worked out that further information wasn't going to make a federal medical panel magically spring into existence.

The two points I've highlighted raise yet another point for me about border controls. To enter Australia, you are checked by ABF as you pass through immigration controls. However, there is now a second 'border' created by State officials and you either get into the state or not dependent on whoever is manning the state border checkpoints (usually state police). My understanding is that those borders can only be enforced by the state government declaring some form of state of emergency (and continually renewing it) which is what has happened thanks to the pandemic. So, in some ways I can see why the Victorian govt has been mentioned. While I can't speak for Victoria I can tell you what happens here in Qld. If you enter from an international destination you will only be allowed to enter if you are entering from:

a safe travel zone country
Have been double vaccinated or a have an exemption
Have had a negative PCR test within 72 hours prior to entry
Have completed a state border pass and this has been ratified by the Qld government

The way I read this - no vax, no entry to QLD. Looking at the Victorian site it appears that you can come in unvaccinated. You will still need a border pass to enter.

So it's easy to see the confusion and it all boils down state control of borders. QLD has followed the Federal government entry guidelines regarding vaccination whereas Victoria clearly has rules of their own. If I threw WA into the mix........nahhhh won't go there. No wonder the situation is so confused.

I mentioned the word 'clusterfuck' in my previous post and this still applies. If the Federal government had grown a set of gonads by overriding state government 'emergency powers' right at the beginning by invoking constitutional powers we would have a one size fits all nationwide. We don't, as state politicians play political games with the federal government and each other. If there has ever been a stronger case for abolishing the state government system surely it is now.

[Madiel]

No argument with any of that, Holden, except that I'm not sure exactly which level of government is more responsible for it being so messy.

The federal government can't simply override anything handled by the States. The constitutional reality is that the powers at the federal level are limited. Sure, in practice they are wide, but in legal terms you have to identify the power you're relying on. I don't see how the federal government could override the States on public health controls.

Many people seem to have been surprised during the pandemic that we actually have State borders. But that's part and parcel of having States. In the 1930s you needed a permit to drive across the border. We're so used to it being completely easy to move around that we've forgotten that it's not inevitable, and that we actually have 8 separate jurisdictions in a federal country.

Meanwhile in the USA you have some States heavily pushing vaccination, and some States making it illegal for a company to require vaccination.

[André]

It's complicated here in Canada as well. The federal gov controls the borders, but health requirements when you land are a provincial jurisdiction - vary from one province to the next. During the 2020 lockdown travel was restricted between some provinces (New Brunswick completely isolated itself, with police control of entry points). There is a federal Health ministry, but its role is mostly about regulating/approving drugs. This week the federal Health Minister strongly hinted at an 'inevitable' mandatory vaccination for all Canadians, but Alberta Premier Jason Kenney said that, no way Jose, it won't happen in his province...

[Florestan]

This week the federal Health Minister strongly hinted at an 'inevitable' mandatory vaccination for all Canadians, but Alberta Premier Jason Kenney sais that, no way Jose, it won't happen in his province...

I'd like to buy this Jason Kenney guy a beer or two.

[Karl Henning]

I'd like to buy this Jason Kenney guy a beer or two.

Digging that emotional buzz, eh?

[Holden]

As noted in an earlier post, the Qld government is delaying the start of the school year to try and keep students at home while our omicron goes through its 'projected' peak. This give students an extra two weeks at home on holiday. The weeks missed will be added to the end of the school year. The school (private) that I work at has decided to start with online learning right from the very first day which makes sense to me. As the term was due to start on Jan 24, I can't understand why state schools were not expected to go down this route. There is certainly enough time to prepare.

[MusicTurner]

My impression is that Serbian funniness has been deposited temporarily, on some location hidden from the enemies;
(...)

His family associates have a press conference in Serbia, claiming that he was experiencing 'torture' during the events in Australia. When confronted with a critical question (why he played with, and hugged, a group of children just the day after testing corona positive), they stop the interview, rise up, and sing the national anthem ...

It's a region often particularly vulnerable to general paranoic/conspiracy theories; and Serbian government papers now ridiculously claim, that the whole Djokovic business is an Australian revenge against the Serbian nation, because some - partly - Australian company gave up an industrial project in Serbia. The government does its best to harvest on Djokovic's popularity, and they have their reasons, for example due to the often-found, martial victim identity, 10% unemployment, failed corona strategies with the number of fatalities being possibly three times the official one, etc.

[Madiel]

Now there are questions about whether Djokovic's statement about where he'd been in the 2 weeks before arriving in Australia was false.

Social media posts could come back to bite him on this, giving an entirely new justification for cancelling the visa.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

His family associates have a press conference in Serbia, claiming that he was experiencing 'torture' during the events in Australia. When confronted with a critical question (why he played with, and hugged, a group of children just the day after testing corona positive), they stop the interview, rise up, and sing the national anthem ...

It's a region often particularly vulnerable to general paranoic/conspiracy theories; and Serbian government papers now ridiculously claim, that the whole Djokovic business is an Australian revenge against the Serbian nation, because some - partly - Australian company gave up an industrial project in Serbia. The government does its best to harvest on Djokovic's popularity, and they have their reasons, for example due to the often-found, martial victim identity, 10% unemployment, failed corona strategies with the number of fatalities being possibly three times the official one, etc.

Yeah, I read (or saw videos) of what his parents were claiming whilst he was waiting for his hearing on Monday.    I had brought up earlier about him attending events the day or possibly two after his test and wondered when he received the results of his test.  Do we know why he took the test in the first place?  Was he feeling fine or not?  Had he previously been in contact with someone else who had tested positive?

It just seems crazy!  And I'll leave it at that!

Now there are questions about whether Djokovic's statement about where he'd been in the 2 weeks before arriving in Australia was false.

Social media posts could come back to bite him on this, giving an entirely new justification for cancelling the visa.

I saw that!  There's apparently a question about (roughly) "Will you be traveling anywhere else during the 14 days prior to coming to Australia" and I read that he had given his agent the authority to reply "No".  But he had gone from Serbia to Spain during this time (according to an article on the BBC's website).  So, I'm confused as to why he answered that way?  Or did he change his mind after applying for his visa and how would this have effected things?

What a mess!

PD

[MusicTurner]

Yeah, I read (or saw videos) of what his parents were claiming whilst he was waiting for his hearing on Monday.    I had brought up earlier about him attending events the day or possibly two after his test and wondered when he received the results of his test.  Do we know why he took the test in the first place?  Was he feeling fine or not?  Had he previously been in contact with someone else who had tested positive?

It just seems crazy!  And I'll leave it at that!
(...)

PD

I don't follow the details in the story, but the attitude just doesn't sound that likeable to me ... the positive result was given to him the day before the maskless event with children. There's evidence in writing.

I guess the various circumstances will be relatively clear soon, hopefully with good documentation, though there'll probably still be several versions of it, due to all the media/social media fuss.

Apparently he claims the travel questionnaire papers were filled out by the Australian tennis association; but under all circumstances, shouldn't he check them as well?

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I don't follow the details in the story, but the attitude just doesn't sound that likeable to me ... the positive result was given to him the day before the maskless event with children. There's evidence in writing.

I guess the various circumstances will be relatively clear soon, hopefully with good documentation, though there'll probably still be several versions of it, due to all the media/social media fuss.

Apparently he claims the travel questionnaire papers were filled out by the Australian tennis association; but under all circumstances, shouldn't he check them as well?

I wish that I knew what the heck was going through his head as I remember the flack that he received after his Adria Tour--and he genuinely seemed to have been remorseful for holding it (plus accompanying close contact sports and clubbing activities).  From what I understand over the years, he's adopted some rather "New Age" and some might say "dubious" beliefs about health/healing/disease/vaccines, etc.     We'll see how it plays out.

PD

[Karl Henning]

Models show Omicron cases may peak in Mass. within two weeks, while hospitalizations could continue to surge

[Que]

Models show Omicron cases may peak in Mass. within two weeks, while hospitalizations could continue to surge

Omicron is unstoppable, and it seems that vaccination levels are going to make a crucial difference between states in the US and countries in Europe:

we have yet to see its full impact in countries where levels of vaccination uptake are lower, and where we will see more severe disease in the unvaccinated. Taking the example of Denmark, where Omicron cases have exploded in recent weeks, the COVID-19 hospitalization rate for unvaccinated patients was 6-fold higher than for those who were fully vaccinated in the week over Christmas. Data from the UK Obstetric Surveillance System shows 96% of pregnant women admitted to hospital with COVID-19 symptoms between May and October 2021 were unvaccinated, a third of whom required respiratory support

https://www.euro.who.int/en/media-centre/sections/statements/2022/statement-update-on-covid-19-omicron-wave-threatening-to-overcome-health-workforce

[Karl Henning]

Omicron is unstoppable, and it seems that vaccination levels are going to make a crucial difference between states in the US and countries in Europe:

we have yet to see its full impact in countries where levels of vaccination uptake are lower, and where we will see more severe disease in the unvaccinated. Taking the example of Denmark, where Omicron cases have exploded in recent weeks, the COVID-19 hospitalization rate for unvaccinated patients was 6-fold higher than for those who were fully vaccinated in the week over Christmas. Data from the UK Obstetric Surveillance System shows 96% of pregnant women admitted to hospital with COVID-19 symptoms between May and October 2021 were unvaccinated, a third of whom required respiratory support

https://www.euro.who.int/en/media-centre/sections/statements/2022/statement-update-on-covid-19-omicron-wave-threatening-to-overcome-health-workforce

The failure to vaccinate pregnant women, especially, is deplorable (I nearly said criminal)

[Que]

The failure to vaccinate pregnant women, especially, is deplorable (I nearly said criminal)

Absolutely. And in particular the scare mongering that dissuaded them from getting vaccinated...

[MusicTurner]

Absolutely. And in particular the scare mongering that dissuaded them from getting vaccinated...

In DK, the hospital system has appealed to pregnant women to get vaccinated, since there's been an alarming number of hospitalizations and abortions among unvaccinated contracting Covid.

Source in Danish: https://ugeskriftet.dk/nyhed/fodselslaeger-slar-alarm-vi-ser-flere-dodfodsler-pa-grund-af-covid-19

[Que]

You mean this?

There is limited experience with use of Comirnaty in pregnant women. Animal studies do not indicate
direct or indirect harmful effects with respect to pregnancy, embryo/foetal development, parturition or
post-natal development (see section 5.3). Administration of Comirnaty in pregnancy should only be
considered when the potential benefits outweigh any potential risks for the mother and foetus

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documents/product-information/comirnaty-epar-product-information_en.pdf

Or maybe this?

There is limited experience with use of Spikevax in pregnant women. Animal studies do not indicate
direct or indirect harmful effects with respect to pregnancy, embryo/foetal development, parturition or
post-natal development (see section 5.3). Administration of Spikevax in pregnancy should only be
considered when the potential benefits outweigh any potential risks for the mother and foetus.

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documents/product-information/spikevax-previously-covid-19-vaccine-moderna-epar-product-information_en.pdf

Those are disclaimers by the manufacturers that don't tell you much, except they were cautious when they initially released the vaccines. And of course pregnancy is a special situation that required further research on safety. In the summer of last year health authorities across the world cleared the vaccines for safe use during pregnancy.