Is Bach a Great Composer?

[quintett op.57]

Thanks for the illuminating and useful comment. There is, certainly, some influence of Handel in some of Beethoven - Die Weihe des Hauses is often cited - but there is influence of Bach as well in the late period, as Beethoven became more and more interested in fugal procedures; and surely the fugues of the Hammerklavier sonata, C# minor quartet, Grosse Fuge, and the two in the Missa owe next to nothing to Handel, but in their intellectual knottiness are far closer in spirit to Bach.

Beethoven was known for loving Handel's counterpoint (Mozart as well).
Let me add that many other very good musician composed some very interesting counterpoint and can have influenced  later composers.
If you think Handel had just "some influence", it means you've not listened very well his orchestral, chamber and even keyboard music.

I loved the quotes against quotes episode in this thread.
Quotes are a good way of filling a debate when one has no argument.

I suggest each one who assume bach or Handel is the greatest explain what greatness in music means in order that the debate became more understandable. (Please don't use words like "god", "stars" or "ocean" in your definitions, Thank you)

[(poco) Sforzando]

Beethoven was known for loving Handel's counterpoint (Mozart as well).
Let me add that many other very good musician composed some very interesting counterpoint and can have influenced  later composers.
If you think Handel had just "some influence", it means you've not listened very well his orchestral, chamber and even keyboard music.

I loved the quotes against quotes episode in this thread.
Quotes are a good way of filling a debate when one has no argument.

I suggest each one who assume bach or Handel is the greatest explain what greatness in music means in order that the debate became more understandable. (Please don't use words like "god", "stars" or "ocean" in your definitions, Thank you)

Can I use "sea"?

And your point is ....?

[karlhenning]

Oh, he's just trying to fill a debate when he has no argument . . . .

[quintett op.57]

Oh, he's just trying to fill a debate when he has no argument . . . .

true.
Where are yours?

[quintett op.57]

Rod, I prefer Händel over Bach as well.
But really this debate is useless.
None of your arguments convinced me that Händel was greater than Bach .... worse, they are exactly the same than those of your opponents.
You should stop it before you lose patience because some of them are trying to humiliate you.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Rod, I prefer Händel over Bach as well.
But really this debate is useless.
None of your arguments convinced me that Händel was greater than Bach .... worse, they are exactly the same than those of your opponents.
You should stop it before you lose patience because some of them are trying to humiliate you.

No, just trying to poke a few holes in a windbag. Rod seems to be holding his own nonetheless.

[quintett op.57]

No, just trying to poke a few holes in a windbag. Rod seems to be holding his own nonetheless.

I've not said it was you

[jochanaan]

Can't our music-loving hearts have room for more than one "greatest"?

[(poco) Sforzando]

Can't our music-loving hearts have room for more than one "greatest"?

Of course. But that was not the original question.

[Saul]

Yes he was a Great Composer but............................

Mendelssohn was greater!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rod Corkin]

Rod, I prefer Händel over Bach as well.
But really this debate is useless.
None of your arguments convinced me that Händel was greater than Bach .... worse, they are exactly the same than those of your opponents.
You should stop it before you lose patience because some of them are trying to humiliate you.

I haven't presented any arguments in this topic about why I believe Handel is greater than Bach! All I have said is that my change in opinion re Handel was influenced by Beethoven's own opinion of Handel. I have also mention the 'Bach cult' that has developed, that's about it I think.

Attempts at humiliation is par for the course here at GMG, it's like water of a duck's back to me now. Has zero effect.

[Rod Corkin]

Just in case anyone missed that, let me repeat that:

The immortal GOD of harmony. [of Bach]   0:)

Beethoven was into this kind of analogy, gods and Olympus and all that. I can give you another olympian analogy from Beethoven relating to Handel's superiority over Mozart, as he saw it. But I would not compare this with the quasi-religious rantings of the Bach cultists these days. But with regard to Handel Beethoven was totally unambiguous, he stated on more than one occasion in his latter years that Handel was the greatest composer who have ever lived. It was Handel's volumes he was perusing during his final days. He said he could still learn from Handel. The point of interest is how and why Bach's music achieved this meteoric rise over the past 100+ years or so, to the degree where he has for some time been regarded as the supreme composer. I suggest it is because of the academisation of the art of music, and when academics are the bastion of musical taste you know trouble is going to set in sooner or later.

In addition to the usual 'writing for God' notions, I've often read other statements along the lines that he was the 'father of all music' - which is even greater tosh. If you want to hear what music sounds like without any Bachian influence whatsoever just listen to Handel, and that's bloody good music!! Overall Bach's influence on the likes of Beethoven an Mozart was not huge, maybe negligible. Did the art of music improve in any way thanks to Bach's 'resurrection'? No way, in fact the opposite was the case.

[quintett op.57]

No way, in fact the opposite was the case.

Ouch!
What do you mean?

Was the Liszt/Schumann period the beginning of a decline?
What about the following masters (Ravel, Stravinsky, Schönberg....)?

[Rod Corkin]

Ouch!
What do you mean?

Was the Liszt/Schumann period the beginning of a decline?
What about the following masters (Ravel, Stravinsky, Schönberg....)?

My lips are sealed...  0:)

[karlhenning]

Yes he was a Great Composer but............................

Mendelssohn was greater!!!!!!!!!!!

Predictable, and yet not any whit the less amusing! 

[karlhenning]

Beethoven was into this kind of analogy, gods and Olympus and all that.

But, the point, O Corkster, is that you continue in navel-gazing denial of the fact that such a remark, by Beethoven, does in fact hold Bach in elevated regard.

Which neatly gauges your own blather.

Oh, if only your lips were sealed, we should all be spared your logorrhea.

[Ephemerid]

Yes he was a Great Composer but............................

Mendelssohn was greater!!!!!!!!!!!

But... but... I thought it was Elgar?!?

[(poco) Sforzando]

The point of interest is how and why Bach's music achieved this meteoric rise over the past 100+ years or so, to the degree where he has for some time been regarded as the supreme composer. I suggest it is because of the academisation of the art of music, and when academics are the bastion of musical taste you know trouble is going to set in sooner or later.

Completely wrong, Rod. The high regard in which Bach is held is due primarily to the response of 19th-century composers - Chopin, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Wagner, Brahms, others. Brahms, for example, subscribed to the 19th-century collected editions then appearing of Bach and Handel. When a Handel volume arrived, he would say, "it certainly looks interesting, I will peruse it when I have time." When a Bach volume arrived, he would drop everything to study it.

Bach's reputation was sealed well before "academics" had any say in it. And it's composers, above all, the men (and unfortunately only a few women) who grapple with the art of composition day in and day out, who know what kinds of mastery from the past they can learn from and measure themselves against.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Ouch!
What do you mean?

Was the Liszt/Schumann period the beginning of a decline?
What about the following masters (Ravel, Stravinsky, Schönberg....)?

It is impossible to hold a rational conversation with someone who thinks only two composers are worth listening to.

[karlhenning]

Completely wrong, Rod. The high regard in which Bach is held is due primarily to the response of 19th-century composers - Chopin, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Wagner, Brahms, others.

Nor should we forget the 19th-century composer who was the agent for resurrecting the St Matthew Passion:  Mendelssohn.

It is impossible to hold a rational conversation with someone who thinks only two composers are worth listening to.

Word.