What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?

[Florestan]

Something being someones own business means I have no business to interfere it. I can't stop anyone buing snake oil. It doesn't mean I can't express my opinion about what other people do. That's my own business! It is an odd idea that transaction of money makes an activity somehow above criticism.

I have never denied the fact that people feel better after buying snake oil. Of course they do! Why else would they spend massive amounts of ca$h on it? It's just that the cause of the good feeling is irrational and has nothing (or in some cases miniscule amount) to do with the sound itself. It's all about how our mind works. I have 3 problems with feeling better buying snake oil:

1 - It costs a lot! "Feeling good" should not be that expensive or even a commodity!
2 - The psychology behind the good feeling is ignored => not very intellectual.
3 - Snake oil sellers exploit the ignorance of 2.

So, if you want to buy snake oil go for it! Nobody is stopping you, but I am entitled to express my opinion and say you spent a lot of money for good feel (not improved sound quality) and if you want improved sound quality you need to spent your money elsewhere (better loudspeakers, acoustic materials etc.)

All the above well and good, but you have seen yourself where such discussions lead. Hardcore audiophiles live in a world of their own out of which they can't be lifted (and I'm not even sure they should be lifted). Any attempt at that not only falls on deaf ears but more often than not results in unnecessary bitterness from both parts and a general toxic environment. It's simply not worth it. Besides, these people spend their own money, not yours or mine, so your #1 point is moot. Of course I wouldn't spend that much on audio equipment even if I could afford it, but that doesn't give me the right to tell them they shouldn't either. AFter all, one can spend money in far worse ways than chasing the wild goose of perfect sound.

[Todd]

Besides, these people spend their own money, not yours or mine, so your #1 point is moot.

Some men spend money on toupees and facial hair dye.  Audiophilia is like that.  Of course people should comment on it.

[Florestan]

Some men spend money on toupees and facial hair dye.  Audiophilia is like that.  Of course people should comment on it.

People who believe / hope that hardcore audiophiles could change their mind might as well believe / hope that the Nile could flow southwards or that the crocodiles therein could fly.

[Todd]

People who believe / hope that hardcore audiophiles could change their mind might as well believe / hope that the Nile could flow southwards or that the crocodiles therein could fly.

It has nothing to do with changing their minds. 

[Florestan]

It has nothing to do with changing their minds. 

Then it's even worse than I thought.

[Todd]

Then it's even worse than I thought.

I would have thought the toupee comment would have given it away, but obviously not.

[Florestan]

I would have thought the toupee comment would have given it away, but obviously not.

Why would anyone waste their time commenting on something in the full knowledge of the fact that their comments will have no effect whatsoever on the commented natter? --- unless, of course, one has a lot of time to waste and/or relish in commenting for the sake of commenting.

[Todd]

Why would anyone waste their time commenting on something in the full knowledge of the fact that their comments will have no effect whatsoever on the commented natter? --- unless, of course, one has a lot of time to waste and/or relish in commenting for the sake of commenting.

People do it on GMG all the time.  Like you are doing now.

[Florestan]

People do it on GMG all the time.  Like you are doing now.

Fair enough and I saw that coming. I expressed myself clumsily. I'll try to reformulate.

Regardless of your comments, hardcore audiophiles will keep chasing the wild goose of perfect sound --- which they are actually perfectly entitled to do. Why is it so annoying to you?

[Todd]

Regardless of your comments, hardcore audiophiles will keep chasing the wild goose of perfect sound --- which they are actually perfectly entitled to do. Why is it so annoying to you?

It's amusing.

[71 dB]

All the above well and good, but you have seen yourself where such discussions lead. Hardcore audiophiles live in a world of their own out of which they can't be lifted (and I'm not even sure they should be lifted).

Well, I'm not "lifting" anyone from audiophoolery. I am commenting audiophoolery.

Any attempt at that not only falls on deaf ears but more often than not results in unnecessary bitterness from both parts and a general toxic environment.

I am not bitter in this context and I hope the other side isn't bitter either. If anything, they should be feeling great after spending tons of many of good feel audio gear, right? I think it is important to bring up that snake oil is only one way to do audio. The opposite approach is "bang for the buck", where you set the target sound quality level and then figure out a cost-effective way to get there.

It's simply not worth it. Besides, these people spend their own money, not yours or mine, so your #1 point is moot. Of course I wouldn't spend that much on audio equipment even if I could afford it, but that doesn't give me the right to tell them they shouldn't either. AFter all, one can spend money in far worse ways than chasing the wild goose of perfect sound.

Again you think money transaction matters. If I burn my 100 euro bill it is really dumb. It doesn't matter it was MY own money. You would be correct to call it stupid. I am not telling anyone what to do and what not to do (I may express my recommendations). I am commenting on what they are doing! I give my opinion about what I think about what they do. Other people are similarly entitled to comment on my usage of money.

You have a tendency of trying to make everything a debate. In your own words, is it worth it?

[71 dB]

People who believe / hope that hardcore audiophiles could change their mind might as well believe / hope that the Nile could flow southwards or that the crocodiles therein could fly.

There are people who have changed their mind. It does happen. It just happens with a small percentage of people and it takes time. Nobody is going to change their minds after reading a few posts online, but those posts, if skillfully written can insert a mental seed in the brain of some people and in time this seed grows into enlightenment that triggers change in beliefs.

[71 dB]

The old CD-player (Philips CD850) of an acquaintance is becoming faulty and the owner of the unit is in the situation of needing a new CD player. The problem is he is retired and not willing to pay a lot. Since normal people stream music these days instead of playing CDs, proper CD-players are targeted and sold merely to audiophiles who are willing to pay more than normal people. That's why the cheapest models are about 400 euros, which is a bit expensive for my acquaintance. DVD/Blu-ray-players are much cheaper, but don't have a display on the unit (everything is on TV screen) so they are not practical for playing CDs. They don't even have RCA connectors. After research the only "affordable" CD-players are cheap products like AUNA AV2-CD509, but going from "luxurious" Philips CD850 to such a cheap player must be quite a drop, perhaps not in sound quality, but in the feel of use. If all people still used CD-player, there would be models from the reliable manufacturers (Denon, Philips, Sony, Yamaha, etc.) at 200-300 euro price range which is what my acquaintance is looking for. It sucks when other people stop doing things the ways you are doing them. You become marginalized and have to pay extra for that.

Used CD-players cost next to nothing, but are risky.

[Daverz]

.

The old CD-player (Philips CD850) of an acquaintance is becoming faulty and the owner of the unit is in the situation of needing a new CD player. The problem is he is retired and not willing to pay a lot. Since normal people stream music these days instead of playing CDs, proper CD-players are targeted and sold merely to audiophiles who are willing to pay more than normal people. That's why the cheapest models are about 400 euros, which is a bit expensive for my acquaintance. DVD/Blu-ray-players are much cheaper, but don't have a display on the unit (everything is on TV screen) so they are not practical for playing CDs. They don't even have RCA connectors. After research the only "affordable" CD-players are cheap products like AUNA AV2-CD509, but going from "luxurious" Philips CD850 to such a cheap player must be quite a drop, perhaps not in sound quality, but in the feel of use. If all people still used CD-player, there would be models from the reliable manufacturers (Denon, Philips, Sony, Yamaha, etc.) at 200-300 euro price range which is what my acquaintance is looking for. It sucks when other people stop doing things the ways you are doing them. You become marginalized and have to pay extra for that.

Used CD-players cost next to nothing, but are risky.

So much for recommending a cheap blu-ray player for playing CDs.  I do see some on Amazon that still have displays and RCA outputs, like the one below, but the obscure brand names don't inspire confidence.  I don't know what the availability is like in Finland.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08BL4SKRG/

A used CD player is starting to sound like a better bet.

[Florestan]

It's amusing.

That settles it, I guess, although my idea of amusement is vastly different.

[Todd]

That settles it, I guess, although my idea of amusement is vastly different.

How can you not find it amusing when men in their 50s, 60s, and 70s insist that they are physically capable of hearing what audiophile gear is purportedly capable of reproducing?

[Florestan]

There are people who have changed their mind. It does happen. It just happens with a small percentage of people and it takes time. Nobody is going to change their minds after reading a few posts online, but those posts, if skillfully written can insert a mental seed in the brain of some people and in time this seed grows into enlightenment that triggers change in beliefs.

This is also true, but then again: why is the matter so important to you? Why can't you just let hardcore audiophiles have their wild goose chase without giving it as much as a thought? After all, the world is full of people who pursue fantasies, why single them (hardcore audiophiles, that is) out as being in special need of illumination? As long as one's fantasy, whatever it is, does no harm to other people, I say let them have it and enjoy it in spades, even if I personally don't. Live and let live, man. 

[Florestan]

How can you not find it amusing when men in their 50s, 60s, and 70s insist that they are physically capable of hearing what audiophile gear is purportedly capable of reproducing?

Oh, that I find highly, exhilaratingly amusing. What I don't find amusing in the least is losing no opportunity to tell them they are wrong. I mean, yes, you are right and they are wrong, but if they choose to be wrong, so be it. If we were to try correcting, or even commenting on, all the follies of mankind we'd soon be riped for the madhouse. And the point I've been repeteadly making is that hardcore audiophilia is a harmless folly and as such should be of no concern to more rational people.

[Florestan]

Again you think money transaction matters.

I think that everyone is entitled to spend their lawfully acquired money in whatever way they see fit as long as they do no harm to other people. Of course I'd prefer anyone to spend it wisely and even altruistically, but there is no way to translate this preference into reality.

[Irons]

How can you not find it amusing when men in their 50s, 60s, and 70s insist that they are physically capable of hearing what audiophile gear is purportedly capable of reproducing?

They may also spend a lot of money on an expensive sports car they are not physically capable of driving at speeds not lawfully permitted where they happen to live. I don't criticise, quite the opposite. Enjoy the feeling of pride of ownership no doubt they have worked hard to obtain.