What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?

[71 dB]

At last we are talking about what distinguishes, or rather can distinguish, a well-matched sound system from an ordinary budget hi-fi.

How do you define "ordinary budget hi-fi?" Well-matched sound system is easier to define: It is one where the components neutralize each others temperaments. For example: Using very directive speakers in a room that has inadequate acoustic treatment may give satisfactory results.

Yes. Naturalness of recorded sound transmission.

In high fidelity the target is neutrality, that the system reproduces a recording as accurately as possible. Naturalness is a different kind of term and means the sound isn't necessarily accurate replication, but it sounds as it could be. For example I use cross-feed with headphones to make the spatial information in the (stereo or downmixed multichannel) recordings made for speakers sound more natural (in this case more binaural) with headphones.

But, it's all so unscientific that it's better not to start. After all, we have already been told, and repeatedly, that sophisticated components are just a marketing conspiracy, that all cables sound the same, etc. All electrons are equal and bits are bits, and so on

Sophisticated components is a way for businesses to operate on a specific market segment. It involves typically a lot of marketing (all kind of marketing BS), but is a conspiracy? Don't know about that!

Cables tend to sound the same and this has been demonstrated in proper blind listening tests. In certain cases cables may have an audible effect on the sound. For example using very thin and long speaker cables with speakers having very low impedance will audibly affect the sound, but it takes an audio moron to do something that stupid.

As far as the modern physics knows, all electrons are the same. In fact there has been theories about an idea where there is one ONE electron in the whole universe, but this one electron is traveling in time back an fort from the beginning of the Universe to the end of the Universe near infinite speech and each electron we "see" around us is one of those passings through the moment "now." This is perhaps just a fancy idea, but nevertheless, it is pretty safe to say all electrons are the same. There are no "audiophile electrons" as far as modern quantum physics knows.

Bits are bits in their information form, but in the physical representation form they are not 100 % exact copies of each other. That's why digital system needs to be build in a way that is immune to this. That's kind of the whole idea of digital audio: It can be made immune to small imperfections. If pulses over 0.7 volt are interpreted to be bit "1", it doesn't matter if one pulse is 0.82 volt and the next is 0.87 volts. Both are correctly interpreted to be bits "1".

[AnotherSpin]

How do you define "ordinary budget hi-fi?" Well-matched sound system is easier to define: It is one where the components neutralize each others temperaments. For example: Using very directive speakers in a room that has inadequate acoustic treatment may give satisfactory results.
In high fidelity the target is neutrality, that the system reproduces a recording as accurately as possible. Naturalness is a different kind of term and means the sound isn't necessarily accurate replication, but it sounds as it could be. For example I use cross-feed with headphones to make the spatial information in the (stereo or downmixed multichannel) recordings made for speakers sound more natural (in this case more binaural) with headphones.


Sophisticated components is a way for businesses to operate on a specific market segment. It involves typically a lot of marketing (all kind of marketing BS), but is a conspiracy? Don't know about that!

Cables tend to sound the same and this has been demonstrated in proper blind listening tests. In certain cases cables may have an audible effect on the sound. For example using very thin and long speaker cables with speakers having very low impedance will audibly affect the sound, but it takes an audio moron to do something that stupid.

As far as the modern physics knows, all electrons are the same. In fact there has been theories about an idea where there is one ONE electron in the whole universe, but this one electron is traveling in time back an fort from the beginning of the Universe to the end of the Universe near infinite speech and each electron we "see" around us is one of those passings through the moment "now." This is perhaps just a fancy idea, but nevertheless, it is pretty safe to say all electrons are the same. There are no "audiophile electrons" as far as modern quantum physics knows.

Bits are bits in their information form, but in the physical representation form they are not 100 % exact copies of each other. That's why digital system needs to be build in a way that is immune to this. That's kind of the whole idea of digital audio: It can be made immune to small imperfections. If pulses over 0.7 volt are interpreted to be bit "1", it doesn't matter if one pulse is 0.82 volt and the next is 0.87 volts. Both are correctly interpreted to be bits "1".

Of course, of course.

[Florestan]

There are no "audiophile electrons" as far as modern quantum physics knows.

   

Very well said, Poju!

[71 dB]

For anyone here that has a high end system... does it sound like live music?  I ask because I was reminded again this evening how I've never heard a recording sound like it does live.  Especially the strings with their detailed sound and overtones, their airy but sweet tone never sounds the same when I listen on my stereo.

I don't of course own a high end system because I am not an oil sheikh, but I have heard very expensive high performance systems. My problem is I don't listen to music live*. I have been to only a couple of classical music concerts in my life. I don't remember well how they sound. That's why it isn't easy  for me to do comparison. However I can make some educated remarks on the topic.

1) Comparing live music to listening to a recordings at home is a bit silly to beging with. Most of the difference in the experiences comes from other things than the sound. They are fundamentally different kind of experiences. Both can be enjoyable in their own ways having different strengths and weaknesses.

2) The way music is recorded doesn't reflect the way people hear the music live. You pick up the sound with your two ears somewhere in the audience. A recording is done with a large number of microphones placed in various places, some near certain instrument, some further away to pick up the "room acoustics" and so on. The captured sound from all these microphones is then mixed (balanced, panned etc.) together. I have heard (on a sound science forum) from people who work in the recording and mixing industry as sound engineers, that they don't even try to make recordings sound the same live music sounds. They aim at as good recorded sound as possible instead. They understand how trying to capture the sound the way it is experienced live is a fools errand.

3) it is possible (speculation from my part based on everything I know and understand about the subject) that if you recorded live music with an artificial head or a Jecklin disk placed in the audience, you would come up with a binaural recording that would sound pretty convincing on headphones (artificial head recordings don't work well with speakers, but Jecklin disk recordings do), but the experience would still be lacking compared to real live situation and being there for yourself. Also, the recording would sound noisy (audience) and muddy compared to live experience, because our brain wouldn't understand why there is so much audience noise and acoustics of a big hall present when you listen to at your own living room. Our hearing is context based. Huge reverberation inside a cathedral is "natural", while the same reverberation experienced elsewhere would sound "weird." I have made binaural recording having small microphone capsules in my ears and walking outside home and then coming back home. The acoustics change a lot during the walk back home. At a doorway there is shower-like resonances etc. So, when listening to this recording sitting still at home with headphones, the sudden changes of acoustics feel MASSIVE and surprising, while when I actually come home, there is nothing weird, because my brain understands the acoustics can and even should change when I move. I believe there is a slight fluctuation of acoustics present in a live performance due to the collective small movements in the audience and things like this may contribute to sonic things such as airy overtones of strings you mentioned.

_________________________________
* Recently while getting into personality types, I learned that my personality type isn't into the type of things like live music, travelling etc. I don't "need" that strong experiences and such experiences can even be too intense for my senses as an autistic person. Listening to music at home limits the sensory load to a level that suites me well. No other people around. No going somewhere. Familiar environment (home). Just the music coming out of the speakers. I can handle that! For sensors this is a bit dull and they need more. So they go to EDM festivals or to an opera etc.

[AnotherSpin]

It's funny to see how many words people waste to base their stern stance on things they have no clue about... Like high-end sound systems, but not only about them, of course. But, it's so human that it elicits nothing but compassion.

[Florestan]

Comparing live music to listening to a recordings at home is a bit silly to beging with. Most of the difference in the experiences comes from other things than the sound. They are fundamentally different kind of experiences. Both can be enjoyable in their own ways having different strengths and weaknesses.

This is a very perceptive comment that goes straight to the heart of the matter.

The rest of the post is also excellent. You are in top form today, Poju! 

[Harry]

This is a very perceptive comment that goes straight to the heart of the matter.

The rest of the post is also excellent. You are in top form today, Poju! 

On the contrary, it is not at all.

[Harry]

It's funny to see how many words people waste to base their stern stance on things they have no clue about... Like high-end sound systems, but not only about them, of course. But, it's so human that it elicits nothing but compassion.

Agreed!

[Florestan]

It's funny to see how many words people waste to base their stern stance on things they have no clue about... Like high-end sound systems, but not only about them, of course. But, it's so human that it elicits nothing but compassion.

That's way too funny. According to you, a trained acoustics engineer who has been working in the field for decades has no clue about acoustics. Thanks for the chuckle, man.

[71 dB]

This is a very perceptive comment that goes straight to the heart of the matter.

The rest of the post is also excellent. You are in top form today, Poju! 

Thank you very much Andrei! 

[71 dB]

That's way too funny. According to you, a trained acoustics engineer who has been working in the field for decades has no clue about acoustics. Thanks for the chuckle, man.

Yeah, isn't it strange how people get educated in universities when all you need is to let placebo effect show you how a 20 times more expensive snake oil cable of course sounds better! Doesn't matter if science and proper double blind listening tests have time after time demonstrated otherwise (even speaker cables made out of coat hangers can sound just as good as expensive audiophile cables and in some cases even better if the audiophile cable has been deliberately made to change the signal just to sound different).

I'm not really offended by the post indicating I don't know what I'm talking about. I understand how Harry for example sees my posts. I'm sorry if they offend him, but I want to tell about the facts as accurately as I know them. I'm open to be corrected (of course there are people in the World from who I can learn more), but people here don't even try to correct me, because they clearly can't. All they can do is express I am wrong about everything, which is a bit silly considering my background.

I don't expect to change the minds of those who have locked the their brain and are unwilling to question their own beliefs. I write to provide information for those who are learning and willing to learn, or perhaps willing to change their mind.

[AnotherSpin]

That's way too funny. According to you, a trained acoustics engineer who has been working in the field for decades has no clue about acoustics. Thanks for the chuckle, man.

It is not about acoustics at all. But, as I told already, I see no base for discussion. And I don't mind at all if acousticians, scientists, etc. remain within the bounds of their perceptions forever

[AnotherSpin]

Agreed!

BTW, Harry, I haven't had a chance to ask about your new Nordost cables, I remember you mentioning the order some time ago. Are you happy with the upgrade?

[Harry]

BTW, Harry, I haven't had a chance to ask about your new Nordost cables, I remember you mentioning the order some time ago. Are you happy with the upgrade?

Yes, it made quite a difference, much more detail, presence and even a lot more control, plus acoustically it creates an amazing aural vision.

[71 dB]

much more detail,

What is detail? If you increase the sharpness of your TV picture, is it more detailed or is it the same level of detail made to appear more detailed to eyes? Defining detail is surprisingly hard to do. I can't give good definition for detail despite of giving a lot of thought to these things.

presence

Presence is also a term hard to define. I suppose it is a feeling rather than a sonic signature?

and even a lot more control,

As an engineer I say you need external energy to control something. How can a passive component (cable) control anything? All it can do is not ruin the controlling done by an active component such as an amplifier. Luckily a basic proper cable does that, because audio frequencies are very easy (low). Things get harder when you get to megahertz area or higher.

plus acoustically it creates an amazing aural vision.

I ask how? Spatiality in audio is based on signal differences in different audio channels. I doubt the cable has some kind of intelligence allowing it analyse the signal in different channels and modify them together in a way that gives human beings "amazing aural visio."

Science explains these aural visions and feeling of presence and control and all the other claims of improvement as psychological effect caused by confirmation bias and placebo effect.

[prémont]

Different people have different ways of describing the quality of a HIFI system, but I think that it can be boiled down to what sounds most natural in one's living room when compared to a similar concert at a suitable venue. This can at least be objectified to some extent.

[DavidW]

I foolishly wasn't expecting to reignite the old debate!  I was really just curious if those with high end systems achieved audiophile nirvana... a system that sounds comparable to live because while I greatly enjoy my $5k stereo, it is not it.

[71 dB]

I foolishly wasn't expecting to reignite the old debate!|

Old debates are flammable and so easily reignited!

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I foolishly wasn't expecting to reignite the old debate!  I was really just curious if those with high end systems achieved audiophile nirvana... a system that sounds comparable to live because while I greatly enjoy my $5k stereo, it is not it.

I suspect that you can't really...totally.  A live experience (like in a club or in a theatre or outside) will all have different (not certain of the word) audio interactions as in shape of the room, acoustics, where you were seated at (or standing), etc.  Plus then you have to factor in your own room, etc.

PD

[AnotherSpin]

Yes, it made quite a difference, much more detail, presence and even a lot more control, plus acoustically it creates an amazing aural vision.

At one time I used Nordost cables throughout the system, including cables for speakers, components and usb. So I can understand your assessment, even though my cables were not top-of-the-line. I can only guess what kind of miracles should be expected from the company's best products!