David Hurwitz

[Florestan]

critics are parasites, and  I've yet to read a critic who has added a single thing to anything I've read or listened to - hence, why I don't pay them any mind. I have my own ears and my own eyes.

So do I, of course. But I have also a theory: that people who have devoted their whole life to a thorough and comprehensive study of music might --- just might, mind you --- be in a better position than me, a mere layman with no musical education, to judge the merits, or lack thereof, of a sonata or a symphony and elaborate at length upon them. That in the end I might still find that work attractive or uninteresting despite what critics say is irrelevant. The legitimacy and usefulness of musical, or literary or any other kind of criticism is beyond question for me. YMMV, of course.

[Madiel]

So do I, of course. But I have also a theory: that people who have devoted their whole life to a thorough and comprehensive study of music might --- just might, mind you --- be in a better position than me, a mere layman with no musical education, to judge the merits, or lack thereof, of a sonata or a symphony and elaborate at length upon them. That in the end I might still find that work attractive or uninteresting despite what critics say is irrelevant. The legitimacy and usefulness of musical, or literary or any other kind of criticism is beyond question for me. YMMV, of course.

There's a great cartoon of someone demanding to fly a plane because they don't think the pilots have any greater ability than they do. As a commentary on the general trend to resent experts.

Of course, when it comes to one's own listening pleasure I agree with you that it's ultimately subjective and personal. But there are plenty of times with music, film etc that I've found reviewers very helpful in pointing out things, either before my own experience or reading again afterwards where they make explicit something that was at the back of my mind. Making those kinds of observations is a skill, and like any skill it can get honed with practice (as well as there being variation in natural ability).

I've said already that in my opinion, a heck of a lot of people couldn't write a good review, and that includes people on this forum who express their opinion on music they're listening to in ways that simply aren't very helpful. But it's fine because they're just posting on a forum. The problem is when that leads to the belief that professionals aren't doing anything different.

[AnotherSpin]

This is an interesting philosophical point and based on my own experiences I mostly agree, part disagree. When I started out writing reviews of CDs, I leaned much more on comparison than later. Eventually experience (and perhaps age) provided a better ability to describe performers' intentions without resorting to constant comparison. Now that I have moved to food writing the same learning curve has taken place. These days my work has much less of statements like "this restaurant is good but that one is better," and more willingness to accept each place on its own terms.

Where I partly disagree but partly agree is on whether comparisons are "misleading." This depends on the language chosen...I am often surprised by what performances some GMGers consider to be more exciting or more passionate than others! But other things can be spoken of more clearly - faster, slower, technique issues, etc.

In Hurwitz' case he says that some of his collecting, for example multiple reissues of the same classic recording, is to write about remastering specifically which is a different kind of comparison. (One I am bad at!)

Philosophy deals with abstract concepts. It seems to me that it does not require contemplation to see clearly, our troubles and sorrows arise from the habit of comparison. As long as we compare, we feel lack, as long as we feel lack, we are doomed, freedom can be forgotten. As soon as we cease compare ourselves to others or compare objects in our knowing to other objects, we are content, we are fine, everything is as it is — i.e. perfect.

There is a story about the tea master of medieval Japan, Sen no Rikyū. A powerful warlord received news that beautiful flowers were blooming in the area where Rikyū's tea house was located, creating magnificent colourful fields. Warlord wished to visit the tea house and admire the flowers, while Rikyū treated him to tea. When he arrived at the site, he was stunned to see that all the flowers had been cut and removed. Shocked, the warlord entered the tea house and saw that there was a single flower in a simple, hand-carved bamboo vase. This flower was perfect. In its impermanence, it embodied the beauty of all flowers. It was beyond comparison.

[Florestan]

Many moons ago there was a reality show in Romania in which they asked people in the streets all kind of questions related to culture. For instance, who wrote the Illiad. Of all those who obviously had no clue whatsoever, not a single one answered I don't know. All of them gave the most fantastic and absurd answers in full confidence, as if knowing exactly what they were talking about.   

[Florestan]

I don't think that anything will ever be posted here that I will disagree with more.

Feel free to disagree as much as you want.

I can't help noticing, though, that such a strong dismissal of secondary literature comes from someone who used tons of it in order to be able to make a career out of it. 

[Madiel]

Philosophy deals with abstract concepts. It seems to me that it does not require contemplation to see clearly, our troubles and sorrows arise from the habit of comparison. As long as we compare, we feel lack, as long as we feel lack, we are doomed, freedom can be forgotten. As soon as we cease compare ourselves to others or compare objects in our knowing to other objects, we are content, we are fine, everything is as it is — i.e. perfect.

There is a story about the tea master of medieval Japan, Sen no Rikyū. A powerful warlord received news that beautiful flowers were blooming in the area where Rikyū's tea house was located, creating magnificent colourful fields. Warlord wished to visit the tea house and admire the flowers, while Rikyū treated him to tea. When he arrived at the site, he was stunned to see that all the flowers had been cut and removed. Shocked, the warlord entered the tea house and saw that there was a single flower in a simple, hand-carved bamboo vase. This flower was perfect. In its impermanence, it embodied the beauty of all flowers. It was beyond comparison.

I can't quite decide whether this is an argument against buying many recordings of the same music, or an argument in support of buying each recording entirely divorced from considerations of how it compares to other recordings already in one's possession.

To put it another way, whether that one flower was perfect did not really depend on whether all the other flowers were gone. If it was beyond comparison, there was no actual need to remove all of the potential comparators.

[Florestan]

That is why my dismissal is so strong. I come from the place they all come from, and I am utterly repulsed.

Then the next logical step would be to never ever contribute one single line, let alone a whole article or, perish the thought, a whole book to this repulsive stuff --- but if I'm not mistaken, your field is of a publish-or-perish nature, so that would entail a drastic change of career. Do you contemplate such a move?

[Florestan]

our troubles and sorrows arise from the habit of comparison

There are lots of troubles and sorrows in the world which have got nothing to do with any comparison whatsoever. Parents losing their children, for instance, either from disease or from a Russian / Hamas / Israeli missile.

[AnotherSpin]

I can't quite decide whether this is an argument against buying many recordings of the same music, or an argument in support of buying each recording entirely divorced from considerations of how it compares to other recordings already in one's possession.

To put it another way, whether that one flower was perfect did not really depend on whether all the other flowers were gone. If it was beyond comparison, there was no actual need to remove all of the potential comparators.

When there's no other, there's nothing to compare it to.

Yesterday and today I'm listening to WTC performed by Rübsam. Now Rübsam is one flower for me. I don't dance around and bang the tambourine of the mind in order to invoke the ghosts of Gould, Turek or any others for the purpose of comparison. Soon I'll be listening to WTC performed by Pienaar (he's in the queue) or some other. And each time it will be a single flower.

I don't see the connection to buying or not buying other versions. Besides, I haven't bought anything in a long time. Qobuz is perfectly adequate for my needs.

[Florestan]

citational justice

I am not at all familiar with this concept. Could you please elaborate?

[Madiel]

When there's no other, there's nothing to compare it to.

Yesterday and today I'm listening to WTC performed by Rübsam. Now Rübsam is one flower for me. I don't dance around and bang the tambourine of the mind in order to invoke the ghosts of Gould, Turek or any others for the purpose of comparison. Soon I'll be listening to WTC performed by Pienaar (he's in the queue) or some other. And each time it will be a single flower.

I don't see the connection to buying or not buying other versions. Besides, I haven't bought anything in a long time. Qobuz is perfectly adequate for my needs.

Well, I typically buy one recording of a work and, having made my decision, pretty much forget about all the others. So I'm not that interested in you saying that you won't have the ghosts of Gould and Tureck around while you're listening to Rübsam. What's more interesting to me is your apparent belief that you won't have the ghosts of Rübsam in your head while you're listening to Pienaar. Despite you asserting that Rübsam is one flower for you, you've just told me you plan to look at another flower shortly afterwards. So no, you haven't cut all the other flowers down. There is another. You've just told me so.

[AnotherSpin]

There are lots of troubles and sorrows in the world which have got nothing to do with any comparison whatsoever. Parents losing their children, for instance, either from disease or from a Russian / Hamas / Israeli missile.

It all comes down to a sense of lack. Putin attacked Ukraine because he lacked something, whatever it was. Hamas militants lack something. Etc. People don't know who they really are, so they attack each other,  trying to find integrity with taking bites out of each other.

[AnotherSpin]

Well, I typically buy one recording of a work and, having made my decision, pretty much forget about all the others. So I'm not that interested in you saying that you won't have the ghosts of Gould and Tureck around while you're listening to Rübsam. What's more interesting to me is your apparent belief that you won't have the ghosts of Rübsam in your head while you're listening to Pienaar. Despite you asserting that Rübsam is one flower for you, you've just told me you plan to look at another flower shortly afterwards. So no, you haven't cut all the other flowers down. There is another. You've just told me so.

Each time one flower. Now it is Rübsam, in the next now it will be Pienaar. Or Gould. When people listen to Rübsam and compare his version with someone's else, they do not listen properly, imo. That's why I call it misleading distraction.

[Florestan]

It all comes down to a sense of lack. Putin attacked Ukraine because he lacked something, whatever it was. Hamas militants lack something. Etc. People don't know who they really are, so they attack each other,  trying to find integrity with taking bites out of each other.

You did not get my point. The sorrow of an Ukrainian mother lamenting her child killed in a Russian raid does not stem from her making any comparisons. It stems from, well, the death of her child. Look, you may deny as much and as forcefully as you wish that there is any objective reality outside of, and different from, one's mind --- this denial will not preclude the very same reality to hit you hard.

[AnotherSpin]

You did not get my point. The sorrow of an Ukrainian mother lamenting her child killed in a Russian raid does not stem from her making any comparisons. It stems from, well, the death of her child. Look, you may deny as much and as forcefully as you wish that there is any objective reality outside of, and different from, one's mind --- this denial will not preclude the very same reality to hit you hard.

It all comes down to a sense of lack. Why you think I am denying the things? They are, in my knowing.

[Madiel]

Each time one flower. Now it is Rübsam, in the next now it will be Pienaar. Or Gould. When people listen to Rübsam and compare his version with someone's else, they do not listen properly, imo. That's why I call it misleading distraction.

Well it depends just what you mean by "compare". The fact is, there's a whole range of comparisons, from sitting there and nitpicking over each phrase all the way through to remembering that I liked this one and I didn't like that one.

The latter is obviously beneficial. It is not a misleading distraction to remember which experiences I enjoyed and will want to repeat, to the extent that any experience is repeatable. It's an efficiency that will increase how often my life is enjoyable.

This is also the point of reviews. I've known someone to see a movie and then complain about how bad it was, and I had no sympathy because if they'd bothered they'd have known that the great, great majority of people were saying it was a bad movie. A judgement that can only be made by remembering what a good movie looks like.

[AnotherSpin]

Well it depends just what you mean by "compare". The fact is, there's a whole range of comparisons, from sitting there and nitpicking over each phrase all the way through to remembering that I liked this one and I didn't like that one.

The latter is obviously beneficial. It is not a misleading distraction to remember which experiences I enjoyed and will want to repeat, to the extent that any experience is repeatable. It's an efficiency that will increase how often my life is enjoyable.

This is also the point of reviews. I've known someone to see a movie and then complain about how bad it was, and I had no sympathy because if they'd bothered they'd have known that the great, great majority of people were saying it was a bad movie. A judgement that can only be made by remembering what a good movie looks like.

I've been making comparisons my whole life. Part of that was because I couldn't afford to buy all the interesting versions of WTC or any other piece, and so I had to decide which of all the versions was "the best". Now I don't have to choose anything, many dozens of different versions are available to me. When I listen to one of them, I savour that moment, and everything present.

There is something else. I listened to Rübsam's WTC a while back, and I just didn't ring the bell for me. Maybe I was comparing, maybe something else, I just can't remember. A couple of days ago, for some reason I can't remember now (not important) started listening to him again. And I couldn't stop. Amazing! It turns out I managed to avoid comparing Rübsam to Rübsam?

[Madiel]

There is something else. I listened to Rübsam's WTC a while back, and I just didn't ring the bell for me. Maybe I was comparing, maybe something else, I just can't remember. A couple of days ago, for some reason I can't remember now (not important) started listening to him again. And I couldn't stop. Amazing! It turns out I managed to avoid comparing Rübsam to Rübsam?

I already addressed this.

If there's one thing that really frustrates me about the internet, it's how often people show that they don't understand how probability works.

[Florestan]

Each time one flower. Now it is Rübsam, in the next now it will be Pienaar. Or Gould.

I'm with you on this one. Listening to the same work in multiple versions entails comparison only if you intend to make comparisons. Otherwise, you just relax and hear the music in the here and now.

[Florestan]

Sadly, most of the days is payewalled, but if you want it, I can likely supply it.

This article does a fair job, but not the best: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/impactofsocialsciences/2022/05/16/aspirational-metrics-a-guide-for-working-towards-citational-justice/

In short, as was obvious from the get, citations are not neutral or objective - they are political with no clear connection to knowledge or quality. In fact, citations tend to be incestuous and most citations aren't even read by the person citing them, amongst many other problems.

Citational justice aims to turn all of this upon its head mainly by being utterly transparent as to how their citations came to be, highlighting the intentional nature and selectivity of citations.

Thanks. I'll report back after reading.