Have You Ever Experienced Radical Changes in Your Musical Taste?

[Spotted Horses]

One time I got caught out.  A piece I wanted to hear was programmed in the first part of a concert, with Mozart's Piano Concerto No.24 after the interval.  No problem, I can leave at that point.  Except just before it starts, I'm sitting smack in the middle of a packed front stalls section, when it's announced over the PA that the advertised running order is wrong, and they're going to start with the Mozart.  I'm looking around, thinking I'd have to climb over about 20 people to get out, so it looks like I'm stuck there.  Maybe it won't be so bad.  Just this once surely I can put up with it.

Nope.  I lasted all of about 15 seconds, and then I was out of my seat like a rocketing pheasant in front of the guns.  Like Alex in A Clockwork Orange, who throws himself out of a 2nd-floor window to escape the sound of the Choral Symphony from the room below.  Just one reason why nowadays I always get an aisle seat - you never know when they'll spring some Mozart on you - like in an encore for example - and I need my escape route clear.

I find it shocking that you would be willing the ruin the costly concert experience of many people with this level of self-indulgent rudeness.

[Opus131]

Which is your favorite non-Austro-German composer?

This is not an easy question to answer because classical music is not all the "same" across time and different countries came into the fore during different eras, some very late, some flourishing early on only to remain on the margin for a big chunk of their history.

One of my favored composers of the early 20th century for instance is Bela Bartok. Now, it would be unfair to make a comparison with German composers like Beethoven or Bach because even if one were to argue that Bartok belongs to the same order of "greatness" the stylistic difference alone may still tip things in favor of the earlier German composers, provided one prefers their style over that of a modern composer like Bartok, which i think i do, and the fact Hungary didn't produce a "major" composer until Franz Liszt (to my knowledge anyway) means Germany wins this contest but it does so for purely relative reasons.

I also think the privileged position Germany occupies in the history of music is likewise similarly relative. At some point in their history, music became important to them in a way it wasn't in other countries. Why this was the case is hard to say. It could be that Germany experienced their Renaissance except in music and not the figurative arts like in Italy. It could be an indirect consequence of Luther's predilection for music (i believe he said music was second only to theology in terms of expressing the Word of God, or something along those lines), which may have steered the German psyche to look at music with an interest that other cultures didn't share even beyond the original Lutheran context.

This is all speculation mind you i'm not suggesting those are the actual causes i'm just looking at plausible explanations. If i had to compare my country of origin, which is Italy, i say Germany-Austria come out as the winners. But even here we find questions of a purely relative nature. For instance, i do not like opera as much as i like symphonies or chamber music, and opera just happens to have been THE premiere musical genre of Italy for the longest time. I'm also of the opinion the Catholic Church held a kind of monopoly on "serious" thought in Italy anyway which might explain why the arts tended to focus more on the entertainment of the masses rather than become a kind of substitute to religion like it happened with music in Germany.   

Lastly, considering the number of "great" artists in a given country is always infinitesimal compared to the general population, and considering how decisive cultural changes seem to be (how many "great" composers did Germany produce during the middle ages?) it almost feels like the only reason a certain country produced a great artist and another one didn't is because the first flipped the right coin (personally, i don't think it's so much a matter of chance but "destinity" but i don't want to go there for the moment). Whatever converge of factors are involved in the flourishing of a genius they appear to be so rare, so precarious in nature to try to draw lines on national grounds seems like a waste of time.

The question becomes even more obvious when you start comparing entire civilizations and not just countries. Where are the non-European "geniuses"? I know some people try their hardest to look under ever nook and cranny in foreign civilizations to "prove" there's Beethovens and Mozarts there as well, forgetting that the only reason Europe produced so many individual geniuses is that it developed individualism while other civilizations didn't (and didn't need to i might add).

[ritter]

I think I can say I'm ALWAYS experiencing radical change in my musical taste. I'm 57. ...

I NEVER experience radical change nowadays, being in the same age bracket as you.

My personal experience is that, over the years, my choices have gradually led to the exquisite and refined taste I now have... 

[brewski]

I think I can say I'm ALWAYS experiencing radical change in my musical taste. I'm 57. I've always been crazy about music, but only started listening to classical a few years ago. Sometimes I'm excited about solo piano, and then renaissance madrigals, and then symphonic music, and then I listen to nothing but trios or small chamber music or baroque opera, etc.. It's weird.

Of the many interesting comments so far, this might come the closest to my own view. It's good to mix things up: overindulge in Richard Strauss one day, and then check out Morton Feldman as a complete contrast. Listen to Brahms and Rachmaninoff for melody, and then dive into Xenakis or Varèse for something that relies more on texture and rhythm.

Thinking about Mozart (and I'm not always the biggest Mozart fan, either, though often delighted when something appears that I haven't heard): a few years ago the Staatskapelle Berlin did a complete Bruckner cycle at Carnegie Hall. All except the longer ones (e.g., 8 and 9) were paired with Mozart piano concertos before intermission (with Barenboim at the piano and conducting the symphonies).

It did occur to me at the time that being in a Bruckner mood might not encourage full concentration for the Mozart, and vice versa. And as programmed, each of the piano concertos fell first, with Bruckner second. It might have been interesting to reverse the order, with the concertos ending the evening. I have no idea; just musing.

-Bruce

[Irons]

A radical change in my musical taste is a sad event. A composer or work that has meant much over a long period becomes stale is like losing a valued friend. Finding new friends is not always easy.

[AnotherSpin]

It strikes me that what has changed over the years is not so much my musical taste as the relationship I have with music and the part it plays in my life.  Mostly this has been a gradual process, though once the alteration was so abrupt that I can give it a time and place.  I was at a campus university that had a strong music department with its own purpose-built concert hall - mainly for teaching purposes, with a large performance space and just a few rows of seats around the walls - but there were concerts several evenings a week, of every kind, which anyone with 50 pence in their pocket could attend - and I went to pretty much everything, quite indiscriminately, expanded my range no end, sometimes didn't even bother to find out what was on before going.  Which is how one evening I ended up sitting in front of these guys:



I thought it a terrible racket - What the hell is this would about sum it up - and had I not been sandwiched between two immensely fat Indian gentlemen nodding and grunting their appreciation throughout, I might well have got up and walked out.  As it was, I was stuck there, growing ever more uncomfortable with each passing minute, praying for it to end - when suddenly, after about half an hour, it was like a switch had been thrown, and I got it.  I was very aware of listening in a different way, in which this music now appeared breathtakingly beautiful, I couldn't get enough of it.

When it was (sadly) over, I was conscious that it wasn't just the music, I was now listening to everything differently - like I'd had a new audio board installed - and I couldn't wait to get home to see what my record collection sounded like to my new ears.  Some things were enhanced, some weren't.  Generally the balance tilted in favour of the 20th century.  The 2nd Viennese School came out particularly well.  The most spectacular casualty was Mozart, who at the time occupied a significant slice of my LPs, but from that moment to this I have not been able to stand his music.  This is not a musical judgement - I don't have any problem with either of the Haydns, for example - I simply can't tolerate the sound it makes.  I wish it were not so - for one thing, it's highly inconvenient - when I want to hear some item in concert but it's partnered with a piece by Mozart, a particular problem given the annoying habit of orchestras to schedule a Bruckner symphony after a Mozart concerto, meaning I have to turn up at the interval and (often) evict squatters from my seats.

One time I got caught out.  A piece I wanted to hear was programmed in the first part of a concert, with Mozart's Piano Concerto No.24 after the interval.  No problem, I can leave at that point.  Except just before it starts, I'm sitting smack in the middle of a packed front stalls section, when it's announced over the PA that the advertised running order is wrong, and they're going to start with the Mozart.  I'm looking around, thinking I'd have to climb over about 20 people to get out, so it looks like I'm stuck there.  Maybe it won't be so bad.  Just this once surely I can put up with it.

Nope.  I lasted all of about 15 seconds, and then I was out of my seat like a rocketing pheasant in front of the guns.  Like Alex in A Clockwork Orange, who throws himself out of a 2nd-floor window to escape the sound of the Choral Symphony from the room below.  Just one reason why nowadays I always get an aisle seat - you never know when they'll spring some Mozart on you - like in an encore for example - and I need my escape route clear.

I love Indian music. Including recordings of Pandit Ram Narayan, the famous sarangi master whom you have been listening to, judging from the photo. I should have 5 or 7 of his albums in my archives.

I don't quite understand how a single experience of listening to Indian classical music could change one's perception of Western music, particularly Mozart. There's probably a more complex cause here, or a coincidence. I have been listening to music from India (or Persia or the Maghreb) and Western music for decades. One doesn't seem to interfere with the other.

[Opus131]

I'm going to bring my own prejudices here but i think anyone who comes in contact with pre-modern cultures may end up becoming estranged from post-Renaissance European art based on the fact ancient cultures as a general rule were centered on the trascendent and not the human.

Mozart and Beethoven rapresent a pinnacle of human creativity, but on some level there's also an element that is "all too human" about them. Ancient art, by virtue of expressing something that is altoghether beyond the human level can elevate one to a state of being where human expressions, even those of the most lofty kind, can appear to be quite quaint after all.

BTW, this is my favored Indian musician, if anybody cares:

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

It's Beethoven in heroic grandstanding mode that I can't tolerate.

If there is one criticism of his works i would grant, is that there's something unbalanced about the "explosive" nature of his genius. The constant ebbing and swelling of his music which often culminates in something aking to the breaking of a dam is definitely something that can leave one feeling exhausted and off center. 

Don't get me wrong, I like LvB a lot. But there are times when I wonder if he was suffering from constipation and trying to express this struggle in music.

There was also the notorious claim by a feminist critic, that parts of the 9th Symphony were like a rapist trying to attain sexual release. I used to think this was a ridiculous observation, but if that's how she honestly heard it, it does tell you something about how his style affects certain people.

[AnotherSpin]

I'm going to bring my own prejudices here but i think anyone who comes in contact with pre-modern cultures may end up becoming estranged from post-Renaissance European art based on the fact ancient cultures as a general rule were centered on the trascendent and not the human.

Mozart and Beethoven rapresent a pinnacle of human creativity, but on some level there's also an element that is "all too human" about them. Ancient art, by virtue of expressing something that is altoghether beyond the human level can elevate one to a state of being where human expressions, even those of the most lofty kind, can appear to be quite quaint after all.

BTW, this is my favored Indian musician, if anybody cares:

Great art could be human and transcendent at the same time, both Indian or Western.

[AnotherSpin]

Don't get me wrong, I like LvB a lot. But there are times when I wonder if he was suffering from constipation and trying to express this struggle in music.

There was also the notorious claim by a feminist critic, that parts of the 9th Symphony were like a rapist trying to attain sexual release. I used to think this was a ridiculous observation, but if that's how she honestly heard it, it does tell you something about how his style affects certain people.

Charles Rosen commented on infamous McClary passage:

The phrase about the murderous rage of the rapist has since been withdrawn [as noted above], which indicates that McClary realized it posed a problem, but it has the great merit of recognizing that something extraordinary is taking place here, and McClary's metaphor of sexual violence is not a bad way to describe it. The difficulty is that all metaphors oversimplify, like those entertaining little stories that music critics in the nineteenth century used to invent about works of music for an audience whose musical literacy was not too well developed. I do not, myself, find the cadence frustrated or dammed up in any constricting sense, but only given a slightly deviant movement which briefly postpones total fulfilment.

To continue the sexual imagery, I cannot think that the rapist incapable of attaining release is an adequate analogue, but I hear the passage as if Beethoven had found a way of making an orgasm last for sixteen bars.

Seems like it should entice even the most hardened LvB deniers.

[Karl Henning]

Well, from my part i still rank Beethoven as the single greatest composer in history taking second place only to Bach.

I can certainly understand getting bored of him after a while. I don't it's possible for anything in this world to last forever, no matter how great it may be. I myself no longer listen to him all that much. However, from an "objective" point of view, nothing changed reguarding where i would rank his music and no composer i discovered since displaces him.

Just thinking about his late sonatas or string quartets is enough to ward off any would be usurper, and i say this despite not having listened to those sonatas and quartets for over a year now (i have of course listened to them hundreds of times and i could probably play them in my head note for note if i tried).

If there is one criticism of his works i would grant, is that there's something unbalanced about the "explosive" nature of his genius. The constant ebbing and swelling of his music which often culminates in something aking to the breaking of a dam is definitely something that can leave one feeling exhausted and off center. The problem with building an argument against Beethoven on this criticism alone though is that there are "unbalanced" elemements in the works of most other composers as well, so it would just feel arbitrary to single out Beethoven on this score then give a pass to say, a Wagner, or a Mahler, or a Schumann and so forth, all of which have equally ambivalent elements in their works. 

And, like Bach, this is a matter both of the quality of the work (not that there are no quarrels with any of LvB's music, and how seminal it has proven to composers and the art since.

[Florestan]

Don't get me wrong, I like LvB a lot. But there are times when I wonder if he was suffering from constipation and trying to express this struggle in music.

There was also the notorious claim by a feminist critic, that parts of the 9th Symphony were like a rapist trying to attain sexual release. I used to think this was a ridiculous observation, but if that's how she honestly heard it, it does tell you something about how his style affects certain people.

Maybe the same feminist critic (Susan McClary) who saw in a Mozart piano concerto the expression of his repressed homosexuality? Both claims are beyond ridiculous and if she (or they) honestly heard the music this way then the derangement is most certainly on her (their) side, not on Beethoven's or Mozart's.

That being said, I sense a lot of aggressiveness and violence in Beethoven's music --- very probably the expression of his frustration and anger at becoming increasingly deaf, isolated and misunderstood and no doubt writing such music had a cathartic effect on him, but it certainly has no such effect on me and frankly I don't even see why I as a listener should be burdened with all that. I feel sorry for Beethoven's tribulations but this doesn't mean I have to put up with their musical expression.

[Karl Henning]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I still like some of his chamber and solo piano music, the violin concerto and the 2nd and 4th piano concerto. It's Beethoven in heroic grandstanding mode that I can't tolerate.

The greatness of JSB & LvB should not be a cudgel directed against the hundreds of composers whose manner/method of expression is otherwise. In just this way it's something funny-pathetic-iconic that the trustees of Boston's Symphony Hall could not agree on any other composers whose names "deserved" to join Beethoven's above the stage.

[Opus131]

The theory of that "feminist" is just about the most preposterous thing i've ever heard.

[Opus131]

Maybe the same feminist critic (Susan McClary) who saw in a Mozart piano concerto the expression of his repressed homosexuality? Both claims are beyond ridiculous and if she (or they) honestly heard the music this way then the derangement is most certainly on her (their) side, not on Beethoven's or Mozart's.

That being said, I sense a lot of aggressiveness and violence in Beethoven's music --- very probably the expression of his frustration and anger at becoming increasingly deaf, isolated and misunderstood and no doubt writing such music had a cathartic effect on him, but it certainly has no such effect on me and frankly I don't even see why I as a listener should be burdened with all that. I feel sorry for Beethoven's tribulations but this doesn't mean I have to put up with their musical expression.

There's also a lot of serenity in his music and his works have many warm and affectionate movements. Beethoven was a complex character i don't think he can be reduced to a single aspect of his music when there's so much going on in his works.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

There's also a lot of serenity in his music and his works have many warm and affectionate movements.

Yeah, it would be quite easy to put together a LvB playlist consisting predominantly of serenity, warmth, and (let's not forget) humor & wit, in which he resembles Haydn a lot. Like any great composer, he had multiple sides and he did them all well.

[Karl Henning]

I NEVER experience radical change nowadays, being in the same age bracket as you.

My personal experience is that, over the years, my choices have gradually led to the exquisite and refined taste I now have... 

(* chortle *)

[Iota]

... The most spectacular casualty was Mozart, who at the time occupied a significant slice of my LPs, but from that moment to this I have not been able to stand his music.  This is not a musical judgement - I don't have any problem with either of the Haydns, for example - I simply can't tolerate the sound it makes.  I wish it were not so - for one thing, it's highly inconvenient - when I want to hear some item in concert but it's partnered with a piece by Mozart, a particular problem given the annoying habit of orchestras to schedule a Bruckner symphony after a Mozart concerto, meaning I have to turn up at the interval and (often) evict squatters from my seats.
...

That's an extraordinary transformation, certainly the most 'radical change of music of musical taste' on this thread! And your listening epiphany with the Indian music that led to it is fascinating. With the complexity of our brains almost anything seems possible sometimes, something I think that was summed up so elegantly by Milton -

"The mind is its own place and, in itself can make a heaven of hell or a hell of heaven."

No radical changes as such for me, though I can go off composers for a while, and there are pieces I listened to so incessantly as a teen that I now never really feel like listening to them, and like everybody I have different moods. But generally the older I've got the wider my tastes have got, and the more I enjoy the music I already know. 

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

funny-pathetic-iconic that the trustees of Boston's Symphony Hall could not agree on any other composers whose names "deserved" to join Beethoven's above the stage.

Beethoven may be unique, in that he's the only long-established composer I can think of whose reputation never fell into decline after his death. Even such greats as Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Schubert et al. went through periods when they were ignored and undervalued. But I don't think that ever happened with Beethoven.

[Karl Henning]

Beethoven may be unique, in that he's the only long-established composer I can think of whose reputation never fell into decline after his death. Even such greats as Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Schubert et al. went through periods when they were ignored and undervalued. But I don't think that ever happened with Beethoven.

Good observation!