David Hurwitz

[Herman]

Agreed. There was a scathing review of Klaus Mäkelä's Sibelius cycle, but when one listens to the recordings one finds that Mäkelä's versions hardly have the faults Hurwitz ascribes to them. My main problem is Mäkelä is the difficulty in finding those Finnish diacritics to spell his last name.

Mäkelä  -  like this? I haven't listened to KM's Sibelius recordings (yet) but from the online responses it's pretty clear to me that a conductor so young, slim and apparently liked by the orchestras he's working with, breeds huge resentment in boomers, who generally like their conductors old, barely able to reach the podium on foot or, even better, dead already and to be found in 100 CD boxsets as big as a baby's coffin.

A lot has changed since the 60s and 70s. Back then orchestras used to consist entirely of late middle-aged men (except of course for the harp and maybe one flute) and conductors were no spring chickens either. Maturity bred musical vision. Nowadays the best orchestras (look at Berlin PO) are stocked with young, sometimes very young musicians. At least half of them are female, not out of some equal opportunity thing, but because more girls persist and succeed in their musical education. Orchestral playing is largely a physical activity and you don't get any better over 55.

[Luke]

@Brian this is veering OT, and I shall cross-post. My suggestions for three pieces to start with Boulez in chronological order:

Le Marteau sans maître. It's not everyone's money, and in fact it fell out of and back into my own favor. I fell for it readily the first time I heard it, so maybe you will, too. And now that my own pendulum has re-swung, it's a firm fave again.

Rituel in memoriam Bruno Maderna. Atypical of the composer, as heretofore noted. Mightily strong piece.

Sur Incises. I don't know how the true Boulez fans feel about various times when the composer fiddled with various scores, and I guess that my writing that indicates that my own fandom is somewhat at arm's length, but I find this an unalloyed success.

Apologies to all for digging back over three months, but it seems I haven't looked at this thread in all that time, and returning to it do want to say to @Brian, if he's still interested in Boulez recommendations:

Pli Selon Pli. I love other Boulez scores very much, including the ones Karl mentioned and plenty more, but nothing matches this one for me. It's a personal thing for me - as a (probably very odd teenager) I used to repeat-listen to B's recording with Halina Lukomska, spinning my vinyl copy late at night and in the dark. Its form is unique and spellbinding. We start with Don, and one of the great openings - a shockingly abrupt chord from everyone, followed by an exquisite, mystical and very melodic statement of the first line of the Mallarme poem being set. And then - there's no other word for it, but it's the word I always reach for in talking about this piece - the music retreats into a non-verbal state of nascence. We are taken into a primal word of resonances and drone, punctuated by clattering outbursts of xylophone, screams from a solo cello etc etc.... We are led on a long, slow procession through these various musical events, as if in a dark night of the soul. The process is repeated in reverse in the last section of the piece, Tombeau, so that the music ends with emergence into vocal clarity (just for the last word) and a final, slashing chord. In between those delicately scored Improvisations which are among Boulez's most beautiful things. #

OK, I couldn't really go without making that recommendation - sorry for the interruption, do carry on....

[(poco) Sforzando]

Apologies to all for digging back over three months, but it seems I haven't looked at this thread in all that time, and returning to it do want to say to @Brian, if he's still interested in Boulez recommendations:

Pli Selon Pli. I love other Boulez scores very much, including the ones Karl mentioned and plenty more, but nothing matches this one for me. It's a personal thing for me - as a (probably very odd teenager) I used to repeat-listen to B's recording with Halina Lukomska, spinning my vinyl copy late at night and in the dark. Its form is unique and spellbinding. We start with Don, and one of the great openings - a shockingly abrupt chord from everyone, followed by an exquisite, mystical and very melodic statement of the first line of the Mallarme poem being set. And then - there's no other word for it, but it's the word I always reach for in talking about this piece - the music retreats into a non-verbal state of nascence. We are taken into a primal word of resonances and drone, punctuated by clattering outbursts of xylophone, screams from a solo cello etc etc.... We are led on a long, slow procession through these various musical events, as if in a dark night of the soul. The process is repeated in reverse in the last section of the piece, Tombeau, so that the music ends with emergence into vocal clarity (just for the last word) and a final, slashing chord. In between those delicately scored Improvisations which are among Boulez's most beautiful things. #

OK, I couldn't really go without making that recommendation - sorry for the interruption, do carry on....

I'm glad you brought this up. I consider "Pli" to be Boulez's masterpiece, above the others Karl mentioned save for perhaps "Marteau." And while I've heard all the other Bz pieces mentioned here live, I've never heard "Pli" performed, and Bz never brought it to New York. The first recording with Lukomska is the most violent, and in my opinion the best of his three. To return this to Hurwitz, he constantly denigrates the avant-garde and lists Boulez as one of three composers we can live without. (But if you read his written reviews on Classics Today, you'll find he gives "Sur Incises" a 9/9, and has some praise for "Rituel." Hypocrisy? I wouldn't dream of saying such a thing.)

[Luke]

The first recording with Lukomska is the most violent, and in my opinion the best of his three.

I'm glad you say that. I certainly prefer it, but I've always suspected I just imprinted on it early. It certainly has the violence you mention, which makes these events stand out from that fascinating background of long held, amorphous harmonies all the more colourfully. I've just been looking through the score again. It really is the most extraordinary thing - mind boggling to look at, let alone to imagine mastering.

[Luke]

...he... lists Boulez as one of three composers we can live without.

He's not speaking for me, because I certainly couldn't, and not just for Pli (e.g. I have a sudden urge to listen to Le soleil des eaux again, with its gorgeous, sun-baked opening movement.)  Dare I say that I think Hurwitz is responding to the idea of Boulez rather than to the beauty of much of his actual music?

[(poco) Sforzando]

I'm glad you say that. I certainly prefer it, but I've always suspected I just imprinted on it early. It certainly has the violence you mention, which makes these events stand out from that fascinating background of long held, amorphous harmonies all the more colourfully. I've just been looking through the score again. It really is the most extraordinary thing - mind boggling to look at, let alone to imagine mastering.

I don't have a complete 1-volume score of Pli. I have Don and two of the Improvisations, but not Tombeau which I consider the high point of the work (especially the soprano's entrance at the end, with the accompanying horn.) I have many other Boulez scores, including a Marteau which he signed for me the one time I met him at Carnegie Weill Recital Hall following a lovely performance of that work. Elliott Carter, whom I've spoken to a few times, was also in attendance.

[Luke]

I don't have a complete 1-volume score of Pli. I have Don and two of the Improvisations, but not Tombeau which I consider the high point of the work (especially the soprano's entrance at the end, with the accompanying horn.) I have many other Boulez scores, including a Marteau which he signed for me the one time I met him at Carnegie Weill Recital Hall following a lovely performance of that work. Elliott Carter, whom I've spoken to a few times, was also in attendance.

*swooning with jealousy*

(I don't have a printed copy of Don at all, I'm looking at a scan; as physical objects i have a couple of Improvisations, Le marteau sans maitre and Le soleil des eaux.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Hurwitz in 2000 about Sur Incises:

Finally there's Sur Incises, a magnificent piece "about" the myriad ways the sound of three pianos can be extended by adding three harps and three percussionists (playing mallets and other tuned instruments) to the basic ensemble. Stravinsky's Les Noces is certainly in the background here, and even more to the point, Bartók's Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion. Indeed, after the calm opening, some real Bartókian fireworks give the music genuine passion and expressive urgency. Difficult? Yes, but rewarding too. The performances, under the direction of the composer, presumably give him everything that he wants. I can imagine more warmth at certain moments from the cellos, and maybe an even more savage attack on Sur Incises, but there's no point in complaining about the air when there's nothing else to breathe. Enjoyable, even wonderful, but not for everyone.

He's singing a different tune now, but he's not honest enough to admit to his previous advocacy.

[DavidW]

The digression has been moved, please continue that discussion over there and keep this thread for DH.

[Todd]

Whilst people post about the estimable Mr Hurwitz, it is worth contextualizing his popularity.  His channel has ~37K subscribers, and scrolling through videos, most have under 10K views while popular ones go up to the 20K+ range.  In other words, pretty much no one watches him and his opinion does not reach far and wide, or even really close and narrow.

Theoria Apophasis meanwhile, has ~307K subscribers, and his videos receive a higher average number of views.  Something to ponder.  Or not.

[(poco) Sforzando]

But no one is as good for a nap as Hurwitz. Let's see: Are Conductors Necessary? see you all when I wake up.

[Atriod]

I'm glad you brought this up. I consider "Pli" to be Boulez's masterpiece, above the others Karl mentioned save for perhaps "Marteau." And while I've heard all the other Bz pieces mentioned here live, I've never heard "Pli" performed, and Bz never brought it to New York. The first recording with Lukomska is the most violent, and in my opinion the best of his three. To return this to Hurwitz, he constantly denigrates the avant-garde and lists Boulez as one of three composers we can live without. (But if you read his written reviews on Classics Today, you'll find he gives "Sur Incises" a 9/9, and has some praise for "Rituel." Hypocrisy? I wouldn't dream of saying such a thing.)

Agree on Pli Selon Pli, I always wondered why that was a piece that Barenboim didn't record for his Boulez tribute.

[Herman]

indeed, in most cases Hurwitz' videos have a hard time achieving 5000 views. Many people who are into classical music don't even know what the internet IS, and aren't they lucky? That's why DH launches these negative reviews, such as Worst Triangle Concerto Ever, or Do German Composers Ever Have Fun? because they attract viewers, as does Best Beethoven 5.
It's all marketing.

[Karl Henning]

indeed, in most cases Hurwitz' videos have a hard time achieving 5000 views. Many people who are into classical music don't even know what the internet IS, and aren't they lucky? That's why DH launches these negative reviews, such as Worst Triangle Concerto Ever, or Do German Composers Ever Have Fun? because they attract viewers, as does Best Beethoven 5.
It's all marketing.

A graduate from the Norman Lebrecht School of Clickbait.

[DavidW]

Whilst people post about the estimable Mr Hurwitz, it is worth contextualizing his popularity.  His channel has ~37K subscribers, and scrolling through videos, most have under 10K views while popular ones go up to the 20K+ range.  In other words, pretty much no one watches him and his opinion does not reach far and wide, or even really close and narrow.

Theoria Apophasis meanwhile, has ~307K subscribers, and his videos receive a higher average number of views.  Something to ponder.  Or not.

Considering how unpopular classical music collecting is not just because classical music is unpopular, but collecting recordings in the era of streaming is also unpopular, DH's sub numbers are an impressive achievement.  It doesn't make any sense to compare to a youtuber in a much more popular subject.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Back to pronunciation, but please don't delete this, because it relates to Hurwitz.

The other day I was watching his video on Gould's Goldbergs, and he said this was "one of the most flawed recordings ever made." I was intrigued by this statement, and hoped he would point out those flaws. But he didn't.

Today I was watching his new video about Alfred Brendel. He said Brendel was one of the "most flawed" pianists of the 20th century. Again, he didn't point out any flaws. Then I realized: he was saying "flogged" (meaning promoted or marketed). Which I think is more of a British expression than an American one.

Which leads me to another peeve about Hurwitz. Often, he will say that a certain performer has "faded" based on odd personal criteria. He once said about his bete noire Simon Rattle something like, "Does anyone sit around the dinner table nowadays discussing Simon Rattle recordings?"

I dunno about anyone else, but in my daily life, I don't discuss anyone's classical recordings around the dinner table. If Hurwitz wants to make the point that some performer has faded, he should get into the numbers relating to recording sales, reissues, remasterings, media attention, and so on. But I've never seen him do that.

[Herman]

All those things is just Mean Girls gossip, like Brendel was massively "flogged" by Philips (was he, I mean, in the way Neville Marriner was, back in the day?) or Simon Rattle has "faded". Same with "no one is listening to Bruckner !" There just isn't a way to measure these things, but it's meant to make naive visitors to DH's channel feel bad about discussing Rattle around the dinner table, as we so often do...

[Herman]

I briefly checked the "Whatever happened to Alfred Brendel" video, but it's impossible to watch for longer than a couple of minutes.
It's like watching a bad Trump impression. Everything is repeated over and over again: "he recorded the Beethoven concertos four times. Four times!! Four! (holding four fingers up) I mean count them: four!
The gestures.
The straw men arguments. The setup is Brendel was the nr 1 exponent in Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, and no one mentions him now. What happened?
The setup is disengenuous. Brendel was not the nr 1 exponent in this repertoire. Almost all other top pianists played this repertoire. It was the repertoire you played if you were part of the piano elite. Unless you were a Chopin / Schumann kind of guy. You could be both, a Beethoven and Chopin guy, like Pollini did.
I hear Hurwitz using words like "desperation" drove Brendel to recording Beethoven again; "general insanity", "arrogant fool". The rhetorics are very Trumpy. Obviously Simon Rattle is again mentioned as a "flavour of the month" marketing trick...

What happened to Brendel is he retired, wisely. He's 93 years old and I believe he mentors young musicians.
There are people who listen to his records, and there are people who have moved on to younger, newer perfomers. That's how the market works.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

All those things is just Mean Girls gossip, like Brendel was massively "flogged" by Philips (was he, I mean, in the way Neville Marriner was, back in the day?) or Simon Rattle has "faded". Same with "no one is listening to Bruckner !" There just isn't a way to measure these things, but it's meant to make naive visitors to DH's channel feel bad about discussing Rattle around the dinner table, as we so often do...

The thing is, there are ways to measure these things, however imperfect. Does Bruckner sell concert tickets? Does Bruckner sell recordings? How often does Bruckner get performed, and by whom, and which symphonies get performed most often? These are all concrete data points that one could use in an argument. But I've never heard Hurwitz make this kind of data-based argument.

Years ago (like around 2000), I read an article by Hurwitz where he said something like: "Talk to any marketing people at the major labels, and they'll tell you 'Bruckner doesn't sell'." Oh really, Dave? Then why do record labels keep putting out Bruckner recordings? Explain that, please.

[Luke]

Back to pronunciation, but please don't delete this, because it relates to Hurwitz.

... how are we pronouncing that, btw? I'm going with Her-witch...

Then I realized: he was saying "flogged" (meaning promoted or marketed). Which I think is more of a British expression than an American one.

It means sold (especially sold cheaply/casually) in Britain. If you're trying to flog something you're trying to sell it, which may incidentally involve marketing.