Bruckner's Abbey

Started by Lilas Pastia, April 06, 2007, 07:15:30 AM

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Le Buisson Ardent

Quote from: Cato on June 14, 2024, 04:54:10 AMSo there!   ;D


Amen!  😇  You remind me of my mother's opinion, after I had bought an Alois Haba record from a mail-order house:

"Is there something wrong with our record player?  None of that sounds right!"

"No, it's supposed to sound like that: it's quarter-tone music."

"Well, it sounds like everything's broken."

No, not broken, just unusual! 😇

 ;D

I hope I didn't come off too harshly in my post to @Atriod. I was just trying to say that I have been incredibly moved by Ballot's Bruckner and if someone else doesn't like it, then that is their own prerogative. I'll continue to enjoy his Bruckner regardless of the positive/negative reviews that I may stumble upon.

Le Buisson Ardent

Also, @Atriod mentioned the newer Celibidache set released by Sony Japan and I can only nod my head along with his own. It is a remarkable set and worth owning, especially if you like Celibidache's way with the composer.

The box set in question:



And for those that are curious, these are hybrid SACDs as well.

DavidW

Hi all,

While I'm taking a break from the forum, I had to come back to tell you about my recent discovery: Blomstedt and Berlin in the third. He uses the original version and even past his prime Blomstedt has it!  A dynamic, vibrant performance with the cohesion that you find in the greatest performances.

Cato

Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2024, 06:25:04 AM;D

I hope I didn't come off too harshly in my post to @Atriod.



By no means!  If Bruckner is being played, "it's all good" !   :laugh:


Quote from: DavidW on June 14, 2024, 11:26:01 AMHi all,

While I'm taking a break from the forum, I had to come back to tell you about my recent discovery: Blomstedt and Berlin in the third. He uses the original version and even past his prime Blomstedt has it!  A dynamic, vibrant performance with the cohesion that you find in the greatest performances.


Many thanks for the information!

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Atriod

Quote from: Mirror Image on June 13, 2024, 07:24:28 PMIf you have a Spotify account (or you can go to YouTube), you can always sample some of Ballot's Bruckner. Truth be told, I couldn't careless what Hurwitz says about anything. His ears aren't mine and vice versa. I love the Ballot cycle and I'm going to continue to enjoy it regardless of what someone else says about it.

To clear things up, I brought up Hurwitz because he has praised Celibidache's EMI and Sony performances of Bruckner, so this was as a frame of reference that he does not dislike slow Bruckner when he gave "CD From Hell" for those Ballot performances. Secondly unlike many here I don't have a binary opinion of Hurwitz, he has his strengths and weaknesses.

I have a streaming account, I asked because for the sheer amount of time one has to dedicate to Bruckner (particularly slow performances!) I'd like to get any opinion before committing that time. I will give at least Symphony 8 a listen.

I wasn't offended by anything you wrote, very little offends me.

Le Buisson Ardent

Quote from: Atriod on June 22, 2024, 06:28:02 AMTo clear things up, I brought up Hurwitz because he has praised Celibidache's EMI and Sony performances of Bruckner, so this was as a frame of reference that he does not dislike slow Bruckner when he gave "CD From Hell" for those Ballot performances. Secondly unlike many here I don't have a binary opinion of Hurwitz, he has his strengths and weaknesses.

I have a streaming account, I asked because for the sheer amount of time one has to dedicate to Bruckner (particularly slow performances!) I'd like to get any opinion before committing that time. I will give at least Symphony 8 a listen.

I wasn't offended by anything you wrote, very little offends me.

I guess what I'm saying is that Hurwitz doesn't factor into my life in way, shape or form. Whether he considers a recording a "CD From Hell" or one of the greatest recordings ever, doesn't effect me nor influence my own purchasing decisions, but, then again, I've never been swayed by a critic anyway.

I bought the Ballot set of Bruckner, because I was interested in hearing if Bruckner could be pulled off being played in a cathedral and the Wand recordings from the Lübeck Cathedral is an example of everything I find wrong with these types of recordings. The reason I believe Wand fails is not because the performances aren't noteworthy, but because he didn't account for the space. In these Ballot recordings, however, I think he has made the best possible case for recording in this kind of environment. With Ballot, the music breathes as it should. And, actually, I found the 7th, 8th and 9th performances to be the less interesting ones interpretatively from his cycle. May I suggest the 2nd, 5th and 6th before you listen to the 8th? I personally believe these three symphonies receive top-drawer performances.

Roasted Swan

Quote from: Mirror Image on June 22, 2024, 07:21:23 PMI guess what I'm saying is that Hurwitz doesn't factor into my life in way, shape or form. Whether he considers a recording a "CD From Hell" or one of the greatest recordings ever, doesn't effect me nor influence my own purchasing decisions, but, then again, I've never been swayed by a critic anyway.

I bought the Ballot set of Bruckner, because I was interested in hearing if Bruckner could be pulled off being played in a cathedral and the Wand recordings from the Lübeck Cathedral is an example of everything I find wrong with these types of recordings. The reason I believe Wand fails is not because the performances aren't noteworthy, but because he didn't account for the space. In these Ballot recordings, however, I think he has made the best possible case for recording in this kind of environment. With Ballot, the music breathes as it should. And, actually, I found the 7th, 8th and 9th performances to be the less interesting ones interpretatively from his cycle. May I suggest the 2nd, 5th and 6th before you listen to the 8th? I personally believe these three symphonies receive top-drawer performances.

As a discussion point; how important should a cathedral-like space be in performing Bruckner?  I can see the interest/novelty of hearing a concert in St Florian etc (but interesting how little of that acoustic dominates for example the Boulez No.8 ) but my feeling is that this is a physical parallel to the move from flowing and fluid Bruckner - I like the Rogner performances a lot for example - towards these massive 'spiritual' events which the cathedral space literally echoes.  Yes of course Bruckner was an organist and his musical palette is coloured by the organ but is there any primary source documentary evidence that he wanted his music heard/performed in such an environment or was he trying to transfer a 'cathedral in sound' to the concert hall?  The only Bruckner cycle I owned which I sold was the Paternoster where for me the cavernous acoustic was the last straw in a series averagely played averagely interpreted recordings.

Cato

#4307
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 22, 2024, 10:41:41 PMAs a discussion point; how important should a cathedral-like space be in performing Bruckner? I can see the interest/novelty of hearing a concert in St Florian etc (but interesting how little of that acoustic dominates for example the Boulez No.8 ) but my feeling is that this is a physical parallel to the move from flowing and fluid Bruckner - I like the Rogner performances a lot for example - towards these massive 'spiritual' events which the cathedral space literally echoes. 

Yes of course Bruckner was an organist and his musical palette is coloured by the organ but is there any primary source documentary evidence that he wanted his music heard/performed in such an environment or was he trying to transfer a 'cathedral in sound' to the concert hall?  The only Bruckner cycle I owned which I sold was the Paternoster where for me the cavernous acoustic was the last straw in a series averagely played averagely interpreted recordings.



For a while The Toledo Symphony was establishing a tradition under Stefan Sanderling of playing a Bruckner symphony in the Cathedral of the Holy Rosary there.

I heard them play the Symphonies 0, 2, 4, and 8 in the cathedral: we usually sat rather close to the orchestra.

In comparison to European cathedrals, the Toledo Catholic Cathedral might be considered below average in size. 

My impression was that people sitting in the middle and toward the back would not hear as much detail as people closer to the orchestra.

No risers were used: the sanctuary is three steps high, so not far above the audience at all.

Certainly where we sat the sound was wonderful, and the performances were all excellent, e.g.


Quote from: Cato on March 01, 2018, 04:53:51 PMI heard Die Nullte three or four years ago at a performance in the Toledo Cathedral (Roman Catholic) by the Toledo Symphony conducted by Stefan Sanderling.

They treated it like a major symphony, and so it sounded great, like a major symphony!  ;)



I would assume that all cathedrals have quite different acoustics, so I would think that comparisons would be difficult, or even impossible.







"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Roasted Swan

Quote from: ultralinear on June 28, 2024, 05:05:04 AMIn concert next Monday July 1st - and available to stream/download from BBC Radio 3 - is a reduction of the Sixth Symphony for small chamber ensemble by players from the Concertgebouworchester aka Camerata RCO:



TBH I am not expecting too much from this, as I was not greatly taken by their earlier reduction of the Seventh:


And I am one of the minority who actually like the chamber version by Eisler/Stein/Rankl, having heard it performed by principals from the Dresden Philharmonic and Staatskapelle, and thought it pretty successful in conveying the essentials of Bruckner's symphony - even the dynamics - provided you accept at the outset that you won't get the sheer heft of the orchestral climaxes.  It's a bonsai version of the the symphony, making something small viewed close up stand in for something large seen from a distance.  As explained here by Father Ted:


But what these RCO guys do is extract a chamber piece from the symphony, which is something quite different, and to me seems a questionable endeavour to begin with.  In no way does the Sixth Symphony stand in need of this treatment.  However I will give it a go, you never know.  :-\


I am sure the Concertgebouw players will make the best possible case but just because a piece can be done this way doesn't mean it should.  I would guess that at the time the transcription was originally made the opportunities to hear the work were far more limited than today.  Also - this type of reduction usually has a value by allowing the structure and primary/secondary material to register more clearly.  But I do feel that with Bruckner - possibly more than any other composer - where the sheer imposing scale of the work and the sound of the work is so central that a reduced version is just that - less than the whole and probably fatally less.....

Roasted Swan

Quote from: ultralinear on June 28, 2024, 09:56:34 AMThat's true for the Eisler/etc version, which was made for Schoenberg's Society for Private Musical Performances where space and ensemble size were limited.  Given the constraints - and a sympathetic performance - it's not at all bad.  However these Camerata RCO reductions were made very recently, I suppose just to show that it can be done, and to see what survives of the symphony when you do.  ???

I was thinking of those Verein fur Musikalischer Privatauffuhrungen performances;



I have and enjoy this set as much because it tells you what Eisler or Schoenberg or whoever thinks about the piece they have arranged as much as anything else.  But a modern arrangement seems pretty pointless given the easy ubiquity of the originals....

Cato

Quote from: ultralinear on June 28, 2024, 11:29:21 AMAt least there is a kind of theory behind the organ transcriptions - that Bruckner's first career as a virtuoso organist may have informed the construction of the symphonies that he wrote later, in ways which might be revealed when played on that instrument.  Which theory I believe the various recordings have comprehensively disproved, but no harm in trying I suppose.

Likewise the orchestrations of the String Quintet.

But the 6th Symphony arranged for 10 players? 

Somebody transcribed the 7th Symphony for solo accordion - I haven't heard it, because why would you - but I kind of put this at the same level.  It's done just for the sake of it.

However I would be very happy to be proved wrong.  Maybe something surprising will emerge. :)


Maybe!   ;)

The best I can say about these transcriptions is that people find Bruckner interesting enough - and the scores rich enough - that they feel a temptation to tinker with them.

Not unlike using Bruckner's themes from the Fifth Symphony and other works for a marching band's victory calls at football games.


"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Atriod

Now on my second playthrough of Skrowaczewski conducting the Yomiuri Nippon Symphony in Symphony 0. I don't know this symphony that well, the other I tended to listen to before this (and very rarely at that) was Skrowaczewski with the Saarbrücken Radio Symphony. What do people think of this symphony?


Cato

Quote from: Atriod on June 30, 2024, 10:43:47 AMNow on my second playthrough of Skrowaczewski conducting the Yomiuri Nippon Symphony in Symphony 0. I don't know this symphony that well, the other I tended to listen to before this (and very rarely at that) was Skrowaczewski with the Saarbrücken Radio Symphony. What do people think of this symphony?



I think it is very good, but that will depend on the conductor: I have mentioned before that I heard it live with The Toledo Symphony in the local Catholic cathedral, and the performance - especially the slow movement - made you believe it absolutely ranks with the others as eine echte Sinfonie by Bruckner !
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

André

Quote from: Atriod on June 30, 2024, 10:43:47 AMNow on my second playthrough of Skrowaczewski conducting the Yomiuri Nippon Symphony in Symphony 0. I don't know this symphony that well, the other I tended to listen to before this (and very rarely at that) was Skrowaczewski with the Saarbrücken Radio Symphony. What do people think of this symphony?



No 0 was written before no 1. Both are fully mature 'early' Bruckner works. There's nothing to apologize for (think Beethoven 1-3, Schumann 1, Brahms 1). For no 0 the Marriner/Stuttgart is still my go to rec, because of its youthful energy and natural flow.

André

Quote from: Cato on June 28, 2024, 02:25:01 PMMaybe!   ;)

The best I can say about these transcriptions is that people find Bruckner interesting enough - and the scores rich enough - that they feel a temptation to tinker with them.

Not unlike using Bruckner's themes from the Fifth Symphony and other works for a marching band's victory calls at football games.



Fifth symphony, eh ?🧐 🥰

LKB

Quote from: Cato on June 28, 2024, 02:25:01 PMMaybe!  ;)

The best I can say about these transcriptions is that people find Bruckner interesting enough - and the scores rich enough - that they feel a temptation to tinker with them.

Not unlike using Bruckner's themes from the Fifth Symphony and other works for a marching band's victory calls at football games.





After I stopped giggling, I went back and charted out what they used...

At 01:34, Symphony no. 8, movement 4.

At 02:56, Symphony no. 9, movement 2.

At 04:49, Symphony no. 4, movement 2.

From 06:44 onward, the music is unfamiliar to me, though it certainly sound's like Bruckner. As I've never learned his first three symphonies, I assume they're using excerpts from one of them.

Also, this was filmed at a regional high school marching band competition, not a football game. ( I imagine such a game would have had better attendance, especially in Texas. )

Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...

DavidW

I loved that marching band, hope they won!  But for all I know the next band well all in on Mahler. ;D

Cato

Quote from: André on June 30, 2024, 03:44:59 PMFifth symphony, eh ?🧐 🥰


Led astray again by Mr. Google!  The performance came up under a "Bruckner Symphony 5 Marching Band" search!

Here is an example of The Crowd "Singing" one of the main themes!

Apparently a rock-'n'-roll band used (drafted) the theme for one of their songs, and a band director picked it up and ran with it.  At this game, the crowd was LOUD!


"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Spotted Horses

Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 22, 2024, 10:41:41 PMAs a discussion point; how important should a cathedral-like space be in performing Bruckner?  I can see the interest/novelty of hearing a concert in St Florian etc (but interesting how little of that acoustic dominates for example the Boulez No.8 ) but my feeling is that this is a physical parallel to the move from flowing and fluid Bruckner - I like the Rogner performances a lot for example - towards these massive 'spiritual' events which the cathedral space literally echoes.  Yes of course Bruckner was an organist and his musical palette is coloured by the organ but is there any primary source documentary evidence that he wanted his music heard/performed in such an environment or was he trying to transfer a 'cathedral in sound' to the concert hall?  The only Bruckner cycle I owned which I sold was the Paternoster where for me the cavernous acoustic was the last straw in a series averagely played averagely interpreted recordings.

Bruckner in a cathedral doesn't appeal to me. I am not interested in Bruckner "spirituality," I like the harmonies, the counterpoint, the orchestration, the melodies. I like clarity, and generally a less cataclysmic performance. I was raised on Karajan/Berlin but the cycles that lately appeal to me most are Haitink/Concertgebouw (the first series, starting in the 1960's) and Chailly. I'm looking forward to listening to Venzago.

calyptorhynchus

#4319
As to Bruckner in a cathedral, I have never been to a Bruckner performance in a cathedral, but I have attended a couple of concerts in Ely Cathedral, UK, in the mid 1980s. They were surprisingly disappointing, I wasn't one of the unlucky ones sitting behind a pillar, but the sound was very low in volume where I was sitting, which wasn't that far back in the audience, on both occasions.

I guess it's where you are in the building. Ely Cathedral has a vast crossing space with an octagonal lantern tower above it (rather like a dome), the orchestra sat below the Octagon and the audience were in the closest seats in the nave, and in the transepts, but the sound just disappeared into the air. I guess the cathedral was designed to have good acoustics in the quire (the eastern end), and the rest of the building was for processions, and the laity to mill about in.
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton

'...is it not strange that sheepes guts should hale soules out of mens bodies?' Benedick in Much Ado About Nothing