Richard Wagner: The Greatest Influence on Western Music?

[DavidRoss]

I'm sorry. I didn't realize "Mormon missionaries, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Scientologists all rolled into one" was a compliment.

I have much to learn.

Yes. 

It's not a compliment, but a description.  What does that have to do with "worked up?"  Worked up suggests "excited, agitated."  I'm coolly bemused by the Wagnerites' worship of their little demigod and how seriously they take it...and how seriously they expect others to take it.  It's a cult, all right.

[M forever]

Same here. I am amused - but also slightly alarmed - by all forms of cult worship, be it of Wagner or the countless, in the meantime enormously diverse cults that sprang up around that guy Jesus since 2000 years ago (and ever since, with new variations probably in the making as we speak). What leads people to subscribe to all these cults? Is it an inherent weakness we have which always makes us look for the "leader" to follow?

[PSmith08]

Yes. 

It's not a compliment, but a description.  What does that have to do with "worked up?"  Worked up suggests "excited, agitated."  I'm coolly bemused by the Wagnerites' worship of their little demigod and how seriously they take it...and how seriously they expect others to take it.  It's a cult, all right.

Yeah. This comment sure indicates someone in a state of cool bemusement. The very picture of the blasé, ironic observer.

Give me a break. 

[DavidRoss]

I thought you were a native English speaker who understands American idioms.

This is worked up:

[PSmith08]

I thought you were a native English speaker who understands American idioms.

This is worked up:

Now, this is the funny part: I thought this was a classical music message board on the mighty interweb, but if some folks want to take it seriously enough to have "real" standards of agitation apply, instead of the standards that most reasonable folks would apply to a no-stakes situation, I say more power to them.

I also say that puzzles are a great hobby to bring families closer together and exercise the ol' gray matter.

[DavidRoss]

One unmistakable sign of a cultist is the absence of a sense of humor where the object of his worship is concerned.

[PSmith08]

One unmistakable sign of a cultist is the absence of a sense of humor where the object of his worship is concerned.

Well, honestly, who doesn't find twincest absolutely hi-larious?

[Josquin des Prez]

Aside for marvinbrown, i haven't seen any Wagner "worshiper" here. The cult is short on recruits it seems.

[Josquin des Prez]

I am just aching in anticipation for Josquin's comment on that 0:)

Influence on lower art forms doesn't count for much. Further more, one of the reasons why Stockhausen was taken in earnest by popular musicians is that he was an attention whore and a self centered buffoon, like the rest of them. In popular art, personal image is all important, often overriding the actual content. Often times, popular musicians are all image with no substance whatsoever. Genius doesn't work that way, because genius it's introspective, the complete antithesis of the "group" mentality which fuels popular art.

[PSmith08]

Aside for marvinbrown, i haven't seen any Wagner "worshiper" here. The cult is short on recruits it seems.

I'm sure my earlier correspondent thinks he's being oh-so-witty and clever with his comparison. The key word in that statement is "thinks."

Of course, the true cultists (and the one I can think of hasn't been seen in some time 'round these parts) can be a little obnoxious, but Wagner has that effect on people - in both directions.

[ChamberNut]

Aside for marvinbrown, i haven't seen any Wagner "worshiper" here. The cult is short on recruits it seems.

Even with Marvin, it's not like he listens to Wagner exclusively.  The label of cult worshiper seems excessive, for anyone here.

[karlhenning]

Even with Marvin, it's not like he listens to Wagner exclusively.  The label of cult worshiper seems excessive, for anyone here.

True enough.

Of course, excessive describes the idea which the subject header calls into question, to a nicety.

[ChamberNut]

True enough.

Of course, excessive describes the idea which the subject header calls into question, to a nicety.

Well, perhaps.  But to say Wagner isn't one of the greatest influences on Western Music would be false.

[karlhenning]

But to say Wagner isn't one of the greatest influences on Western Music would be false.

I should say instead, Wagner was a great influence for a certain era.

[ChamberNut]

I should say instead, Wagner was a great influence for a certain era.

Yes.  Would you also say, one of the greatest influences in opera?  Or even....the greatest influence in opera?

[karlhenning]

Would you also say, one of the greatest influences in opera?

Sure, although even considering just the realm of opera, time has rolled on.  If someone wrote a Wagnerian opera today, it would seem a period piece, an affectation, rather than 'a living influence', I should think.

Or even....the greatest influence in opera?

Whether we're talking music in general, or opera as a subset . . . how should we gauge "the greatest influence"?  I find discussion of the limitations of the question of greater use and interest than I do fixing upon any one 'the greatest' whatever.

But, then, our newlywed friend, you probably knew that already 

[ChamberNut]

Whether we're talking music in general, or opera as a subset . . . how should we gauge "the greatest influence"?  I find discussion of the limitations of the question of greater use and interest than I do fixing upon any one 'the greatest' whatever.

But, then, our newlywed friend, you probably knew that already 

You know Karl, I'm determined to look through all of your 9,000+ posts.  I'm sure somewhere, you've described something as being "the greatest".    

[karlhenning]

Not for etching in marble, I haven't 

[jochanaan]

Yes.  Would you also say, one of the greatest influences in opera?  Or even....the greatest influence in opera?

I wouldn't.  That title probably belongs to Claudio Monteverdi, the first of the great opera composers.  (Don't tell me there were opera composers before Monteverdi!  I know there were--yet Monteverdi's works are still holding the stage. )

[PSmith08]

man, you spend wayyyyy too much time shoveling shit...

I don't know. He could be paraphrasing Wendell Kretzschmar's lectures given in Kaisersaschern a little over one hundred years ago. Indeed, if one assumes that what goes for Beethoven goes for them all, he is coming awfully close to repeating Kretzschmar. Not verbatim, mind you, but the substance stays the same while the accidents change.