The Evidence Of The Hardcore Wagnerian

[Monsieur Croche]

Once again M. Operahaven has proven himself to be immeasurably above all of us in intellect and musical sensitivity! In fact, so mighty and irrepressible was this intellect, that it managed to escape the constraints of logic which imprisons our minds... Contrary to what his ignorant detractors assert, M. Operahaven is always consistent, and consistently inventive: One endlessly marvels at his ability to breathe new life into ideas long consigned by fools into the dustbin of history. The idea, in this case, of freeing music from the shackles of that vilest obstacle to Art: context – such a noble cause, which we have all but forgotten! M. Operahaven's achievement is all the more remarkable when considering the fact that he achieved it at the tender age of sixteen; we sincerely hope that he has not since grown too fond of his lone throne in Oz, such that he may still care to bring a little light into our wretched world, and cast away the dark clouds of intellectualism that hang over our Art!

turning Wagner into a Debussy

What do you mean by "turning Wagner into Debussy?" Are you suggesting that it is O.K. to ignore the libretto for Pelleas et Melisande now? Truth be told, I have yet to see a single composer M. Operahaven failed to trivialize. 

Not at all. The true hardcore Wagnerite is one who adores Act 2 of Walküre

I suppose I don't qualify then; I prefer Parsifal. 0:)

[PSmith08]

What do you mean by "turning Wagner into Debussy?" Are you suggesting that it is O.K. to ignore the libretto for Pelleas et Melisande now? Truth be told, I have yet to see a single composer M. Operahaven failed to trivialize. 

Well, much as I would like to ignore the libretto for Pelléas, I wouldn't be very logically consistent if I did, would I? No. No, I wouldn't. What I meant was that Wagner, minus the textual parts of his drama, would be a composer of music (rendered absolute by the machinations of an intellect revenging itself upon art - pace Sontag) with something not insubstantial in common with Debussy's absolute music.

[karlhenning]

What do you mean by "turning Wagner into Debussy?" Are you suggesting that it is O.K. to ignore the libretto for Pelleas et Melisande now?

Patrick has not, but Eric certainly has.  And hasn't.  You know Eric, he'll say one thing, and say nearly the exact opposite two posts later.  It's the Logic & Rhetoric wing of ADD.

[karlhenning]

Not at all. The true hardcore Wagnerite is one who adores Act 2 of Walküre

I suppose I don't qualify then; I prefer Parsifal. 0:)

Depends.

What are your dogs called? 

[(poco) Sforzando]

I suppose I don't qualify then; I prefer Parsifal. 0:)


Depends.

What are your dogs called? 

The chihuahuas are called Fasolt and Fafner; the English Mastiff is called Cosima, a name he clearly enjoys.

[Sergeant Rock]

I suppose I don't qualify then; I prefer Parsifal. 0:)

Preference isn't the point. We all have preferences (I prefer Act 1) but if you don't love Act 2 of Walküre too (along with Parsifal or whatever opera or bit of opera you prefer) then you don't qualify as hardcore. That's not my opinion, that's actually written in the Wagnerian Bible; it's gospel, the Gospel According to Richard, chapter 8 verses 14-16.

Sarge

[Operahaven]

Monsieur, Sforzando and Patrick,

Once again, the only reason for producing an opera is for the  vocal and orchestral sounds.

I do not give a rat's ass about the primacy of the dramatic element/libretto in Wagner's mind.

The aesthetic qualities of those vocal and orchestral sounds is the only thing that matters.

[knight66]

...but if you don't love Act 2 of Walküre too (along with Parsifal or whatever opera or bit of opera you prefer) then you don't qualify as hardcore.

That's not my opinion, that's actually written in the Wagnerian Bible; it's gospel, the Gospel According to Richard, chapter 8 verses 14-16.

Sarge

Trust him to take three verses to say what you expressed in one sentence.

Mike

[karlhenning]

Once again, the only reason for producing an opera is for the  vocal and orchestral sounds.

Once again, that is a peculiar assertion, and your irrational insistence, Eric, does not imbue the assertion with factuality.

[Sergeant Rock]

Trust him to take three verses to say what you expressed in one sentence.

Mike

[Sergeant Rock]

Monsieur, Sforzando and Patrick,

Once again, the only reason for producing an opera is for the  vocal and orchestral sounds.

I do not give a rat's ass about the primacy of the dramatic element/libretto in Wagner's mind.

The aesthetic qualities of those vocal and orchestral sounds is the only thing that matters.

The second and third statements are valid: that's how you see opera. The first statement is utter nonsense...but surely you must see that. You can't be that unhinged.

Sarge

[karlhenning]

You can't be that unhinged.

That sunny optimism is one of your finest qualities, Sarge!

[jochanaan]

Once again, the only reason for producing an opera is for the  vocal and orchestral sounds.

I do not give a rat's ass about the primacy of the dramatic element/libretto in Wagner's mind.

The aesthetic qualities of those vocal and orchestral sounds is the only thing that matters.

If this is true, as you say, then it seems to me that Wagner wasted a lot of time on his libretti, writing staging instructions into his scores, giving meticulous instructions for building Bayreuth... He should have stuck to writing oratorios and songs without words and the like, as Mendelssohn did.

Seriously, Wagner may (or may not) have many faults as a musical dramatist, but it's beyond belief to think he could be so hideously un-self-aware as to continue to add literary and dramatic qualities to his music if the music were the only important thing to him.  If we are to take his art on its own terms--something you consistently refuse to do--we must deal with Wagner the dramatist as well as Wagner the composer.  Especially since they are the same person.

[PSmith08]

Monsieur, Sforzando and Patrick,

Once again, the only reason for producing an opera is for the  vocal and orchestral sounds.

I do not give a rat's ass about the primacy of the dramatic element/libretto in Wagner's mind.

The aesthetic qualities of those vocal and orchestral sounds is the only thing that matters.

While many things here can be reduced to the point of educated people disagreeing on matters of art, this is not one of those things.

No, to be as precise as possible, this mess is, in fact, objectively and horribly wrong. In fact, despite your assertions of having adored Wagner (or anything else) since you were 16, I have to think that you've not actually done anything more than listened to a record and said "My, isn't this nice?" Had you done more than that, you would not hold ideas so wrong as to circle back on themselves and become monuments to unintentional irony.

There is no way to redeem it or make it somehow rational. My only suggestion is to refrain from discussing things about which you have such "unconventional" opinions, lest those who do, in fact, have some grip on the truth of the matter become enraged and rend your "ideas" asunder like a roast goose at a party thrown by Henry VIII.

[scarpia]

Once again, the only reason for producing an opera is for the  vocal and orchestral sounds.

Then, as others have said, why would have Wagner have encumbered his work with such elaborate dramatic settings, and go so far as so build his own opera house to properly realize these dramatic settings?   There is no point in discussing such points if you are not able to grasp this reality.

[knight66]

I keep hearing this clunking sound....it is people banging their heads off a brick wall. We have been round these bushes with Eric so often, I can count the leaves.

Eric probably regards the words as the extra help that the intellectually challenged need in order to retain interest in the works. Eric has risen above needing such spoonfeeding, he has absorbed the abstract sounds and made an alternative sense of them.

No amount of attempts to elucidate will...elucidate.

Mike

[jochanaan]

"Hope springs eternal..."  I keep thinking (silly me!) that one of these days something one of us says will get through...

[knight66]

I more see the operation of 'Hope triumphing over experience.'  0:)

Mike

[PSmith08]

I more see the operation of 'Hope triumphing over experience.'  0:)

Mike

Well, there's more than an outside chance that the next sunrise (relatively speaking) will bring us a correspondent contrite and totally willing to accept the importance of text to Wagner's music-dramas.

[knight66]

Yes it is true, there is precedence, 'The Pauline Convertion' and if any composer can inspire it anew, it would be have to be Wagner. It sure ain't gonna be Sullivan.

Mike