Catharsis

[Cato]

The criticism of magic potions in Wagner is interesting: certainly one finds the theme in medieval sources, including the main one, Gottfried von Strassburg.  Thomas Mann thought Wagner's use of the device was quite fine, showing that the depth of the lovers' feeling can only be measured in that way.

As I recall, the Tristan-chord is used every time a potion is involved: but the potion is a means to an end.  The lovers do not realize their feelings until psychologically released by the potion.  Of interest is Wagner's Leubald und Adelaide, an overheated Senecan bloodbath written when Wagner was 15 and skipping school to write the work, positive that his family, and especially his uncle and private tutor Adolf Wagner, would see the logic in playing hooky to pen such a masterpiece.  Instead, everyone was quite properly appalled by the 4,000 lines of humid, pseudo-Shakespearean prose: Wagner then decided that the reason they did not like his masterpiece, was that it lacked music, and so he decided to learn how to compose! 

Anyway, magic love/death potions figure in this first adolescent epic, so Wagner had the idea from early on.  Eduard Hanslick complained about the device, and I believe so did various bishops of the Catholic Church, because of the interference with free will.

And now we are at the crux of the question mentioned by Anne above: does the magic potion diminish the tragic catharsis of the work?  I hate to disagree with Thomas Mann, but here I would say that a hero who wittingly or unwittingly needs a magic potion to recognize or declare his love for a woman is not at the top of his game.  I can agree that Tristan is limited by the strictures of society and loyalty to his king, etc. etc.  which seem to prevent him on the surface from declaring his love for Isolde without a potion.

In the end the result therefore is not as classically cathartic as it might have been.

[Renfield]

What if the potion is to be considered purely an expositional device, to aid the practical aspects of the drama? To my understanding, even my (far removed) ancestors used those. And maybe they could be accused of "cheating" (rather, "using shortcuts"), under the same reasoning...

(With apologies if my comment is entirely off-target, as I am not at all familiar with Tristan und Isolde.)

[Cato]

What if the potion is to be considered purely an expositional device, to aid the practical aspects of the drama? To my understanding, even my (far removed) ancestors used those. And maybe they could be accused of "cheating" (rather, "using shortcuts"), under the same reasoning...

(With apologies if my comment is entirely off-target, as I am not at all familiar with Tristan und Isolde.)

Which is my point: why the need for the device?  That Tristan suspects he is about to die is fairly clear: he already offered his life to Isolde when he gave her his sword. 

One argument for this device is that Tristan, a loyal, honorable knight, will not willingly betray his code of chivalry.  With the magic potion, he is relieved of this burden, but not of its consequences.

Had Tristan, however, ordered the ship to turn about and escaped with Isolde to the Orkneys or wherever, he would be seen as a social or even political revolutionary.  It is interesting that Wagner did not see this or desire it, given his attitude toward the 1848 Revolution.  Perhaps he wanted to stay faithful to his medieval sources. 

[M forever]

  Not quite M but of the 60+ operas in my collection I'd say Tristan wins hands down  . A perfect marriage of a cathartic score with a cathartic libretto. Care to venture a contender?

I don't think of nor do I compare music in such simplistic terms as "winning hands down" against "contenders". I find that silly.

[marvinbrown]

I think when the protagonist's downfall comes as a result of a defect in his character, that we have the most intense catharsis.

Just a comment on Wagner in this discussion.  IMHO his protagonist's downfall is brought about by a potion (e.g. Tristan und Isolde) rather than a defect in the protagonist's character.  This makes the impact of the drama not as strong as it might be.

  Oh but Anne, the real protagonists of Tristan und Isolde are not the the star crossed lovers but Wagner himself .   On Tristan und Isolde Wagner wrote "Since I have never enjoyed in life the real happiness of love, I will erect to this most beautiful of all dreams a memorial in which, from beginning to end, this love shall for once drink its fill." Wagner himself is the fallen hero!  In that context I think you will find that Tristan und Isolde is very cathartic indeed!  The intoxicating (hence the potion in the opera) love affair with Matillde Wesendonk, a forbidden love, should also be taken into account when experiencing Tristan und Isolde. 

  marvin

[karlhenning]

  Oh but Anne, the real protagonists of Tristan und Isolde are not the the star crossed lovers but Wagner himself .   On Tristan und Isolde Wagner wrote "Since I have never enjoyed in life the real happiness of love, I will erect to this most beautiful of all dreams a memorial in which, from beginning to end, this love shall for once drink its fill." Wagner himself is the fallen hero!

The shallowest art has Author's Message! Look at Me! blazoned all over it, Marvin 

[Sergeant Rock]

The shallowest art has Author's Message! Look at Me! blazoned all over it, Marvin 

There is no Author Message "blazoned all over" Tristan. Wagner's comment that the work emerged out of his own experience is just one more thing to take into account when considering Tristan but not integral to, or even noticeable in, the work itself.

Sarge 

[karlhenning]

There is no Author Message "blazoned all over" Tristan.

From my admittedly limited experience, I agree.

Yet, that seemed to be what Marvin was suggesting, Sarge.  Possibly he thought such a thing would be a 'merit' to the work.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

There is no Author Message "blazoned all over" Tristan. Wagner's comment that the work emerged out of his own experience is just one more thing to take into account when considering Tristan but not integral to, or even noticeable in, the work itself.

Agreed. The origins of a work of art are complex. Personal experience plays its part and can provide the artist with a catalyst - which he doesn't choose, of course, but which adds that vital ingredient to a mix (magic potion!) already brewing. Mathilde Wesendonck certainly had an influence. But so had Schopenhauer...

[Sergeant Rock]

Yet, that seemed to be what Marvin was suggesting, Sarge.  Possibly he thought such a thing would be a 'merit' to the work.

Perhaps you're right although I didn't get that from Marvin's post. But anyway, doesn't it have some merit? Young writers are admonished to write about what they know...and Wagner had vast personal experience with adultery  

Sarge

[karlhenning]

Ah, the old Go With What You Know Trick!

[karlhenning]

Mathilde Wesendonck certainly had an influence. But so had Schopenhauer...

Maybe, but according to contemporary accounts, Schopenhauer was nothing in a tight sweater.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Maybe, but according to contemporary accounts, Schopenhauer was nothing in a tight sweater.

You mustn't believe everything you read, Karl.

[karlhenning]

You mustn't believe everything you read, Karl.

Sage advice, mon vieux.

[karlhenning]

 Karl, art reflects who we are

Right! So Shakespeare was, among other things, a black Moorish general in Venice gulled into jelousy of his upright wife, a Danish prince spurred to revenge by the ghostly appearance of his dad . . . and a fairy-king who fell out with his fairy-queen over a changeling.

Yep; our art pretty much tells the world who we are . . . .

[marvinbrown]

Right! So Shakespeare was, among other things, a black Moorish general in Venice gulled into jelousy of his upright wife, a Danish prince spurred to revenge by the ghostly appearance of his dad . . . and a fairy-king who fell out with his fairy-queen over a changeling.

Yep; our art pretty much tells the world who we are . . . .

  That's not what I meant....... Bach was a deeply religious man and that shows in his music, Mahler was somewhat paranoid and depressed and that shows in his music, Bruckner was spiritual and that shows in his music, Chopin had his signature melanchonic sound and that reflects on his character and condition while struggling with TB.......

[Sergeant Rock]

My take on the love potion dilemma is simple: Wagner, staying true to the medieval setting, has to give the lovers an external reason beyond their control to commit initially the gravest of sins...not just adultery but worse: a vassal's betrayal of his lord. That Tristan and Isolde are already in love and lust is clear; they have a history. Tristan won't approach Isolde on the ship because he knows getting close to her would be too dangerous (in a modern setting, when he finally does stand near her, pheromones would be all the chemical stimulus needed). In the medieval ethos, with Tristan's sworn obligations and allegiance to Marke, fooling around initially with Isolde without the love potion excuse would make him the vilest of villains instead of the ideal tragic hero and lover-- and the medieval poet, and Wagner, wanted a hero not a villain.

Sarge

[marvinbrown]

My take on the love potion dilemma is simple: Wagner, staying true to the medieval setting, has to give the lovers an external reason beyond their control to commit initially the gravest of sins...not just adultery but worse: a vassal's betrayal of his lord. That Tristan and Isolde are already in love and lust is clear; they have a history. Tristan won't approach Isolde on the ship because he knows getting close to her would be too dangerous (in a modern setting, when he finally does stand near her, pheromones would be all the chemical stimulus needed). In the medieval ethos, with Tristans's sworn obligations and allegiance to Marke, fooling around initially with Isolde without the love potion excuse would make him the vilest of villains instead of the ideal tragic hero and love-- and the medieval poet, and Wagner, wanted a hero not a villain.

Sarge

  nice Sarge....very nice  !

  marvin

[karlhenning]

It is very nice, Sarge!

Fact is, I thought the love-potion was just plain stagecraft, aye, shrewd stagecraft. Wagnerian singers tend to run to excess poundage, and it frankly strains an audience's credulity when two large barrels in medieval costumes are supposed to be Love's Young Dream.  How could two such actually fall in love? A potion! A potion! 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Yes, Wagner was a very practical man of the theatre, Karl. 

Sarge, I agree with you. Though Tristan, because of the love potion, is less tragic than, for instance, Wotan, IMO.