The Historically Informed Performances (HIP) debate

[M forever]

One of the most stupendously emotional and fiery HIP performances I have heard is this one:



which should put an end once and for all that HIP recordings are sterile, grating, and thin.

Or this:



Which is one of my all-time favorite recordings of anything by anybody. Not because it is "historically correct" or "the only authentic way" to play these pieces, but simply because it is a musically very convincing and highly nuanced performance with a very wide spectrum of expression. Coin also gets a vast range of colors from his instrument which include very soft, silvery and lyrical sounds and also very metallic (our friend Superhorn would call them "grating") sounds in places where they seem to make musical sense - in some passages in the finale he almost plays on the bridge, with great effect. His bow technique is pretty stunning, especially how he often switches between different bowing styles and attacks rapidly within the same phrase to give it optimally nuanced coloring and articulation.

This performance fully explores the - very wide - spectrum of expressive possibilities of the cello with gut strings and its value does not lie in that it demonstrates "the only correct way" to play these pieces - which neither Coin nor Hogwood ever claimed to do anyway -, but in the opposite, in that it demonstrates how wide the range of musical choices that the instrument allows the player really is. It's basic attitude is not one of giving a lecture on "correct" historical performance but one of exploration and investigation. It is obviously grounded in very solid knowledge and practical musical understanding of historical performance practice and documented esthetic principles such as the "rhetoric" approach to phrasing and inflection, but these basics only provide a starting point and coherent stylistic frame of reference for the performers which is not the destination, but the starting point of this performance. Everything else is built on top of that and only follows musical intuition, not a set of "rules" which don't exist that specifically anyway.

The musicians for whom this music was written and who first played it also started their own musical education by following the basic technical and msucial instructions and rules of their teachers, and then, as they developed and matured as players, by developing their own musical personalities which, presumably, reflected many influences and inspirations which they then fused into their own unique musical personalities. This is the way music making generally works, the way it still does today, no matter what kind of musical style a performer plays in. It is just the way people carry on cultural activities of any kind. But the important thing is that there is always a context in which the performer works and that he interacts with.

It is extremely interesting to at least try and find out whatever we can about these historical contexts by studying historical information and experimenting with historical instruments, as well as getting insights into the mindsets and cultural contexts of the people who created and played this music and these instruments.

That has absolutely nothing to do at all with "drawing by numbers" or following "sterile rules" - in fact, this attitude towards the performance of what is essentially historical music is the exact opposite. It is the attempt to dig down deep into our cultural history past and in finding a connection between the past and the present. Modern performers of modern music operate within a cultural context which is reflected in technical, stylistical, and expressive aspects of their performance. Of course, historical performers of historical music operated in such a context, too. Just as with contemporary musicians, those contexts were partially definable technical and stylistic parameters, and partially personal musical intuition of the individual performers. Any good performance of any kind of music needs to have these qualities in good balance. Investigating the historical context of historical music is not a guarantee for "correct" or even "good" performances at all, but it can be a basis for stylisitically very complex and interesting, and with that attitude, essentially modern performances. Because that kind of attitude towards our cultural history is a very modern attitude.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Or this:



Which is one of my all-time favorite recordings of anything by anybody.

That is saying a lot !

Anyway I am not as eloquent as you are but a good HIP performance always remind me of the music first and HIP second. We are fortunate that nowadays there are some excellent HIP recordings. I remember about 15 years ago I heard my first recording: Mozart's Flute Concertos played by the Linde Consort (I forget who the soloist is) and it was so bad you can't believe they are professional musicians. It had all the cliches you associate with HIP - limited dynamic contrast, veiled and constricted string sound, breathy winds, and then some.

In any case I think everything I hear from the AAM is excellent, especially those with Manze. Too bad the cello disc you mentioned is OOP or I'd order  myself a copy.

[Bulldog]

In any case I think everything I hear from the AAM is excellent, especially those with Manze. Too bad the cello disc you mentioned is OOP or I'd order  myself a copy.

You can order the Hogwood/Coin disc.  It's one of those on-demand recordings from ArkivMusic.  Also, it's available on the Decca Eloquence label from Australia.  M states that it's one of the best, and I fully agree.

[M forever]

The disc (or some other incarnation) can still be bought new from European amazon sites, or, west of the Atlantic, new and used here.

[M forever]

That is saying a lot !

Indeed it is. I don't make these anouncements lightly (or often) but in this case, this is a recording that I have found astonishingly good every time I have listened to it (which has been many times over 15 years or so that I have had it). It is the richness and complexity of the music making, and at the same time, its stylistic coherence which I find so impressive and which makes this a "model" HIP performance for me. But apart from that, it's also simply a great performance, no matter what stylistic reference frame it happens in.

I remember about 15 years ago I heard my first recording: Mozart's Flute Concertos played by the Linde Consort (I forget who the soloist is)

Probably Linde himself. It has been ages since I last heard anything from them, but I remember them as generally quite competent. If you still have the disc, maybe you should relisten to it. Maybe it was the shock of how different some things can sound on "historical" instruments which waqs too great for you at the time. The types of flutes they had back then were indeed much less dynamic and more "breathy" than modern flutes, but I personally like that kind of flute sound a lot, too. It is very introvert and has its own interesting range of colors. It may be "less" than a modern flute, but it has a lot of character.

[adamdavid80]

You can order the Hogwood/Coin disc.  It's one of those on-demand recordings from ArkivMusic.  Also, it's available on the Decca Eloquence label from Australia.  M states that it's one of the best, and I fully agree.

Well, that's an automatic sell right there. 

When Bulldog and M both offer ringing (or, some would say, "grating"  )endorsements, you know that's it's going to be a stellar listening experience....sold!!!

[PerfectWagnerite]

The disc (or some other incarnation) can still be bought new from European amazon sites, or, west of the Atlantic, new and used here.

Thanks. Just ordered it from the link you provided. Initially I didn't find it because I tried searching for Hogwood/Haydn and the only thing it came up with is the OOP version where you have to pay arkivmusic $14 for a cdr or pay $75 to some aftermarket seller.

[anasazi]

But (assuming that there are these people, which I think more myth than actuality) what is that agenda?

To sell CDs would be my guess.  I mean, how many recordings of The Four Seasons do we need?  But any new angle on how to properly play it may give someone an edge.  I understand this may sound depressing, and I am not really doubting the performers (for the most part) but the record and CD companies, their job is to stay in business.

[Bulldog]

To sell CDs would be my guess.  I mean, how many recordings of The Four Seasons do we need? 

500.  Most folks know that already.

[M forever]

Like I said before, basically all good and serious musicians who perform any given repertoire in any given style and whose interpretations are the result of their encounter with and study of the music they play or sing or conduct are convinced that their way of interpreting the music is "right", that it has to be that way and that they can confidently offer their interpretation to the listeners as valid and worth listening to, no matter if they are "HIP" people or not, and no matter if they actually say that or not.

I think I put that really well before, so allow me to quote myself here 

Besides, any performer, no matter what and in what style he plays and whether or not he comments on his interpretations or not, implicitly tells us through the way he plays that he has arrived at that interpretation because it is his personal view that this is the way the music should be presented.

We don't want to listen to people just doodling out notes. No matter what interpretation we listen to, we want to have the feeling that it is worth listening to and that the performer has something to "say" about the music.

[M forever]

Tip: while the Coin/AAM/Hogwood disc with the Haydn cello concertos is easily available in several editions used and new from European sellers, used copies are pricey in the US and the Arkivmusic CD-R appears to be the only cost-effective way to buy the recording. But there is actually also this Decca Eloquence release which appears to be available easily and for not much money. It is just a little hard to find on the amazon website because it is not correctly listed.

[adamdavid80]

Tip: while the Coin/AAM/Hogwood disc with the Haydn cello concertos is easily available in several editions used and new from European sellers, used copies are pricey in the US and the Arkivmusic CD-R appears to be the only cost-effective way to buy the recording. But there is actually also this Decca Eloquence release which appears to be available easily and for not much money. It is just a little hard to find on the amazon website because it is not correctly listed.

...and only ONE copy left...   

[M forever]

No, there's a few more. Read the fine print!

[PerfectWagnerite]

Tip: while the Coin/AAM/Hogwood disc with the Haydn cello concertos is easily available in several editions used and new from European sellers, used copies are pricey in the US and the Arkivmusic CD-R appears to be the only cost-effective way to buy the recording. But there is actually also this Decca Eloquence release which appears to be available easily and for not much money. It is just a little hard to find on the amazon website because it is not correctly listed.

Now you tell me...after I paid about $6 more to get it from the first link you gave. But in any case thanks.

Talking about Haydn's Cello Concertos, have you heard this performance by Queyras?



I heard it the other think and think it is fantastic. I don't have much of a basis for comparison. The only other recording I have is the cello concerto #1 with Du Pre/Barenboim and I am not thrilled with that recording.

[M forever]

I already forgot about the link I first posted. I found the Eloquence release today after a poster PMed me about the Arkivmusic CD-R and I did a little more digging by looking through European amazon sites and searching for the ASINs on amazon.com. But I actually think the Oiseau-Lyre release I linked to earlier and which you apparently bought might still be a better choice even though it is a few dollars more because Eloquence releases tend to be very sparse when it comes to the booklet and all that. But I don't really know because I don't have either - I have had the original release for a long time. How is the booklet and presentation of the Oiseau-Lyre release?

Talking about Haydn's Cello Concertos, have you heard this performance by Queyras?
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No, but the clips I listened to sounded rather interesting, so I am downloading that from amazon. That's exactly what I am in the mood to listen to right now.

I heard it the other think and think it is fantastic. I don't have much of a basis for comparison. The only other recording I have is the cello concerto #1 with Du Pre/Barenboim and I am not thrilled with that recording.

[Que]

The L'Oiseau-Lyre Coin/Hogwood Haydn concertos has been reissued - see HERE.

Q

[ChamberNut]

Maybe this could be the place for Antihipster's first post?   0:)

[Bulldog]

Maybe this could be the place for Antihipster's first post?   0:)

Is Zukerman coming aboard?

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Is Zukerman coming aboard?

He just might if he catches wind of this thread.

[snyprrr]

Berlioz and Liszt come to mind...Scriabin?
didn't HIP die with post modernism?

the other definition would include Nigel Kennedy, Kronos Qrt., and Gorecki's 3rd........marketing. HIP means the 60s, right? culturalism? otherwise, it's an acronym i don't understand.


classical orchestras dressed in sexxxy black tights?

somehow i like the joke's on me, though....