Beethoven Symphonies HIP

Started by Expresso, July 04, 2007, 04:07:15 AM

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FideLeo

#200
April 20, 2009, 07:05:14 PM Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 02:13:32 AM by Que
Quote from: Valentino on April 20, 2009, 01:58:45 PM
Edit: I read through the whole thread again. Not a single mention of my latest favourite Eroica: Jordi Savall's. Sounds rather HIP too...

Also not a single mention of Daniel Grossmann's Ensemble 28 recording of Eroica



Unlike Savall's this one is currently still available  :)
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Antoine Marchand

#201
April 20, 2009, 07:28:57 PM
Quote from: traverso on April 20, 2009, 06:29:21 AM
Not Immerseel?  But then I have almost no idea of what you meant when you said "Mozartean Beethoven"  :P

Well, for me "a Mozartean Beethoven" is a denatured Beethoven. "Nice and harmless" has been said here about Brüggen. Played as if he were a pre-revolutionary composer, I would add.

On the other hand, that's not my impression about Immerseel. When I heard his Fifth, for instance, I saw Europe –excuse my basic metaphor- standing in front of me. The Old World transformed after the French Revolution, i.e., music played on a proper and distinctive Beethovenian way.   

:)

DavidRoss

#202
April 20, 2009, 07:39:50 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 20, 2009, 07:28:57 PM
Well, for me "a Mozartean Beethoven" is a denatured Beethoven. "Nice and harmless" has been said here about Brüggen. Played as if he were a pre-revolutionary composer, I would add.
Say what?!  Did Brüggen record two completely different cycles?
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Antoine Marchand

#203
April 20, 2009, 08:31:30 PM Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 08:36:34 PM by Antoine Marchand
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 20, 2009, 07:39:50 PM
Say what?! 


This is what I said: A Beethoven without teeth and nails; although attractive for other reasons.

Valentino

#204
April 21, 2009, 12:35:07 AM
I ordered Grossmann. Thanks, traverso.
I love music. Sadly, I'm an audiophile too.
Audio-Technica | Bokrand | Thorens | Yamaha | MiniDSP | WiiM | Topping | Hypex | ICEpower | Mundorf | SEAS | Beyma

Brian

#205
April 21, 2009, 07:34:02 AM
Quote from: Valentino on April 20, 2009, 01:58:45 PM...that march in 9. BTW Gardiner is waaay to fast in the same march. But I love that recording, even if he's hidden the trumpets under a blanket or something. Superb vocals.
Awwww, I love the march in Gardiner's 9. Probably my favorite. Obviously tastes differ  :)

karlhenning

#206
April 21, 2009, 07:35:31 AM
A Beethoven red in tooth and claw . . . .

DavidRoss

#207
April 21, 2009, 08:40:09 AM
No lack of blood in Brüggen's Beethoven, nor of grace.  Not only beauty but character, too, must rest in the ear of the behearer.  15 euros for the set is an extraordinary bargain.  Thank you Que for calling it to our attention (I'm still considering buying extra sets as gifts.  My boys' birthdays are coming up and in recent years I've given them Chailly's Mahler and Blomstedt's Sibelius.  This would complete the trifecta.  ;) )Those who admire period instrument performance and the Beethoven symphonies have been advised and are perfectly free to make up their own minds or to let others decide for them--or not to care at all one way or the other. [insert shoulder shrugging emoticon here]
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

FideLeo

#208
April 21, 2009, 08:47:23 AM Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 08:49:04 AM by traverso
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 20, 2009, 07:28:57 PM
a proper and distinctive Beethovenian way.   

It sounds to me to be somewhat tautological to call one's own preferred way "proper and distinctive Beethovenian" without any sound record from the composer himself :-\
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Brian

#209
April 21, 2009, 08:49:54 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 21, 2009, 08:40:09 AM
No lack of blood in Brüggen's Beethoven, nor of grace.  Not only beauty but character, too, must rest in the ear of the behearer.  15 euros for the set is an extraordinary bargain.  Thank you Que for calling it to our attention (I'm still considering buying extra sets as gifts.  My boys' birthdays are coming up and in recent years I've given them Chailly's Mahler and Blomstedt's Sibelius.  This would complete the trifecta.  ;) )Those who admire period instrument performance and the Beethoven symphonies have been advised and are perfectly free to make up their own minds or to let others decide for them--or not to care at all one way or the other. [insert shoulder shrugging emoticon here]
Wow, you sound like an amazing dad.

Antoine Marchand

#210
April 21, 2009, 10:59:00 AM Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 12:29:56 PM by Antoine Marchand
Quote from: traverso on April 21, 2009, 08:47:23 AM
It sounds to me to be somewhat tautological to call one's own preferred way "proper and distinctive Beethovenian" without any sound record from the composer himself :-\

An interesting logical note from a HIP fan.   :)

P.S.: After the first version of this message I changed the emoticon with "rolling eyes" for a "smiley", you know, as a proof of non-belligerence.   ;D

FideLeo

#211
April 21, 2009, 12:42:57 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 21, 2009, 10:59:00 AM
P.S.: After the first version of this message I changed the emoticon with "rolling eyes" for a "smiley", you know, as a proof of non-belligerence.   ;D

Thanks for the change-over.   :D

One definitive advantage (speaking for myself) in the Immerseel set is the slightly higher pitch (A=440) he opted for.  As a result his orchestra sounds brighter and more distinctive than most other period instrument ones while retaining the same colours and transparent textures.
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Sorin Eushayson

#212
April 21, 2009, 02:00:53 PM
Quote from: traverso on April 20, 2009, 07:05:14 PM
Also not a single mention of Daniel Grossmann's Ensemble 28 recording of Eroica

Unlike Savall's this one is currently still available  :)

From what I hear Grossmann's is on the same level.  I'm a huge fan of Savall's work here, he really unleashes the full force of the Eroica (in my humble opinion ;))!

From what I hear, Savall's Alia Vox is planning to re-release the recording sometime in the future - keep your eyes peeled!  :o

nut-job

#213
April 21, 2009, 02:12:33 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 19, 2009, 10:19:54 AM
Through the miracle of modern technology, I've been able to listen to some substantial portions of Immerseel's cycle. 

A source that is freely available?

FideLeo

#214
April 21, 2009, 04:27:32 PM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on April 21, 2009, 02:00:53 PM
From what I hear Grossmann's is on the same level.  I'm a huge fan of Savall's work here, he really unleashes the full force of the Eroica (in my humble opinion ;))!

From what I hear, Savall's Alia Vox is planning to re-release the recording sometime in the future - keep your eyes peeled!  :o

I agree with you every bit here, having owned the Savall from around the time it was first released.  ;D  But I will also be happy to purchase the AV re-release, just to hear how the original's excellent sound can be bettered. 
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

DavidRoss

#215
April 21, 2009, 04:34:08 PM
Quote from: Brian on April 21, 2009, 08:49:54 AM
Wow, you sound like an amazing dad.
Aw, shucks.  The boys are more likely to agree today than when they were teenagers!  What was it Mark Twain said about that?
Quote from: Mark Twain"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."
(Another from him that bears remembering: "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.")

Quote from: nut-job on April 21, 2009, 02:12:33 PM
A source that is freely available?
Zig Zag has clips on their site (including the full funeral march from the third) and downloads for sale here (see the €15 credit link bottom right).
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Superhorn

#216
April 23, 2009, 01:51:58 PM
  Interesting comments M Forever, but I'm afraid your comments about other people who disagree with you,such as myself not"understanding" HIP are extremely arrogant and presumptuous,with all due respect.
  I still find the terms"historically informed" and "historically aware" loaded with baggage. And how do you knoe that I and others who disagree with you about HIP are"ignorant" of it ,and the truth(as you see it)?  And I rather like the Gardiner recordings more than you do.

Brian

#217
April 23, 2009, 05:02:26 PM
Quote from: Superhorn on April 23, 2009, 01:51:58 PM
  Interesting comments M Forever,
How can we break this to you, Superhorn?  :D

George

#218
April 23, 2009, 05:11:22 PM
Quote from: Brian on April 23, 2009, 05:02:26 PM
How can we break this to you, Superhorn?  :D

How about "nothing is forever?"

SonicMan46

#219
April 23, 2009, 05:32:18 PM
Quote from: Brian on April 23, 2009, 05:02:26 PM
How can we break this to you, Superhorn?  :D

Brian - read the post a while ago, but was reluctant to respond -  :)   I'll let you & George handle the BAD (or the GOOD news - a yin/yang issue, I guess) - Dave  :D
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