Mozart a fraud?

[knight66]

I have not yet noticed that our new poster/posters suggest that, for example, Don Giovanni or the 41st Symphony are NOT by Mozart. If they are by him, then he got a superb grasp on his art by the time he was an adult and knew by then how the forms worked......which leads me to wonder how he did it, if he needed to, but failed to, attend a school or study for years to attain mastery of musical forms.

If he was able to produce the later masterpieces without recorded study, why not the earlier ones?

As to a baby flying a jet or whatever, a spurious, specious comparison.

Mike

[robnewman]

What sort of answer do you want to such a sprawling mass of questions ? The best thing is to say we've had 200 years of Mozart propaganda. Quite enough for a fair minded person to see the story is riddled with holes. And that's even before we start.

[robnewman]

I have not yet noticed that our new poster/posters suggest that, for example, Don Giovanni or the 41st Symphony are NOT by Mozart. If they are by him, then he got a superb grasp on his art by the time he was an adult and knew by then how the forms worked......which leads me to wonder how he did it, if he needed to, but failed to, attend a school or study for years to attain mastery of musical forms.

If he was able to produce the later masterpieces without recorded study, why not the earlier ones?

As to a baby flying a jet or whatever, a spurious, specious comparison.

Mike

Mike, let me ask you a question. How many composers that were contemporary with Mozart do you actually know ? I mean have you actually heard the music of, say, Vanhal, or Myslivececk ? How about Paul Vranicky (Wranitsky), Anton Wranitsky, Paisiello, Andrea Luchesi, Josef Fiala, etc, etc etc. The list runs in to several dozen names. How distinctive IS the style of music YOU know as Mozart ?

Tell us what you think of this piece, by Josef Myslivececk,

Overture
Il Gran Tamerlano
(Italy 1771)

Amazingly 'Mozartean' yes ? And this Myslivececk was a close family friend of the Mozart's for many years. This written when Mozart was only 13 by Myslivececk in Italy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj78iHzcXBk

[knight66]

Well, one of your sprawling answers to my sprawling question would do nicely. But of course, I suppose as the only fair minded person on the board, sweeping aside questions you can't answer will be an acceptable technique.

I will condense the question for you and hope you can grasp it.

A) You posit that to reach mastery, Mozart must have studied somewhere or had a teacher.

B) If he did not have the learning to manage the earlier pieces that are authoritatively attributed to him, how did he make the leap to the mastery of the later acknowledged masterpieces still without any recorded period of study?

Mike

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Hello there Jezetha,

Thomas Bauman is asking all the right questions, yes, for sure.

You ask whether I have a publisher. No, not yet. I hope to finish in September and yes, I have many sorts of evidence covering most of the life and official career of Mozart. I hope that you will agree that it provides some remarkable new information. Please let me have your email and I can send you an advanced copy if you like when it is ready, with my regards.

Regards

Robert

Thanks in advance. Instead of battling it out here and wasting time and energy, I'd rather read the book. I'll send you my email address.

Johan

[robnewman]

Thanks in advance. Instead of battling it out here and wasting time and energy, I'd rather read the book. I'll send you my email address.

Johan

Yes Johan,

I will not post here for very long. I have a lot to do also. Please send me your email.

Regards

[robnewman]

Mike, let me ask you a question. How many composers that were contemporary with Mozart do you actually know ? I mean have you actually heard the music of, say, Vanhal, or Myslivececk ? How about Paul Vranicky (Wranitsky), Anton Wranitsky, Paisiello, Andrea Luchesi, Josef Fiala, etc, etc etc. The list runs in to several dozen names. How distinctive IS the style of music YOU know as Mozart ?

Tell us what you think of this piece, by Josef Myslivececk,

Overture
Il Gran Tamerlano
(Italy 1771)

Amazingly 'Mozartean' yes ? And this Myslivececk was a close family friend of the Mozart's for many years. This written when Mozart was only 13 by Myslivececk in Italy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj78iHzcXBk

And others such as -

Giovanni Paisiello
Antonio Salieri
Andrea Luchesi
Paul Wranitsky
Anton Wranitsky
Josef Martin Kraus
Vicenzo Righini
J.B. Vanhal
Josef Fiala
Josef Cartellieri
J.C. Bach
H.A. Gelinek
Theresia von Paradis

etc.

//

[knight66]

Mike, let me ask you a question. How many composers that were contemporary with Mozart do you actually know ? I mean have you actually heard the music of, say, Vanhal, or Myslivececk ? How about Paul Vranicky (Wranitsky), Anton Wranitsky, Paisiello, Andrea Luchesi, Josef Fiala, etc, etc etc. The list runs in to several dozen names. How distinctive IS the style of music YOU know as Mozart ?

Tell us what you think of this piece, by Josef Myslivececk,

Overture
Il Gran Tamerlano
(Italy 1771)

Amazingly 'Mozartean' yes ? And this Myslivececk was a close family friend of the Mozart's for many years. This written when Mozart was only 13 by Myslivececk in Italy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj78iHzcXBk

I have listened to some of the composers you list, not with forensic attention. But I observe the Socratic method here. You are the proclaimed expert here, but instead of providing answers, you ask questions in return. Berlioz superficially sounds uncannily like his predessor Mehul; but that does not degrade Berlioz claim to originality.....we all of us absorb influences. Did anyone suggest Mozart had no influences upon him? We had this argument around Bach recently, It was a non-starter.

Mike

[robnewman]

I have listened to some of the composers you list, not with forensic attention. But I observe the Socratic method here. You are the proclaimed expert here, but instead of providing answers, you ask questions in return. Berlioz superficially sounds uncannily like his predessor Mehul; but that does not degrade Berlioz claim to originality.....we all of us absorb influences. Did anyone suggest Mozart had no influences upon him? We had this argument around Bach recently, It was a non-starter.

Mike

But my question is how many composers of Mozart's time you actually know, other than Haydn ? I've listed various here whose style is pheneomenally similar to that of 'Mozart'. And that's a fact. Why, even Myslivecek in 1771. Hope you heard it.

[robnewman]

Seems to me as fair and reasonable question as to ask for the names of the schools Mozart attended. But here too no answer is essential.

The thing is, of course, that Myslivececk in the early 1770's was writing phenomenal music - music almost unheard today. Just a single example. This is more than good. It's phenomenal. And it's just another example of how ignorant we have all been.

[knight66]

I have a disc of arias mixing Mozart and Myslivecek, I think I would not know who wrote what from the obscure pieces; but I am not clear what point that makes. I can't tell all Corelli from Vivaldi. I have occasionally been fooled into thinking I was listening to Handel when I was not.

Has anyone said that there were not stylistic commonalities in pre-Romantic music, when the individual voice then became paramount as the orchestra was treated in a different way?

Mike

[robnewman]

Fine. Let's leave it here for now. It's enough that you agree there is a very remarkable similarity in this music with that written (supposedly) by Mozart nearly a decade later. But he's just one person and there are several.

[knight66]

The thing is, of course, that Myslivececk in the early 1770's was writing phenomenal music - music almost unheard today. Just a single example. This is more than good. It's phenomenal. And it's just another example of how ignorant we have all been.

What I have heard sounds interesting; I am happy to hear him. I don't believe the argument needs to involve denegrating one composer to elevate another, so I have nothing negative to say about the small amount of Myslivececk that I have heard.

Mike

[Josquin des Prez]

Seems to me as fair and reasonable question as to ask for the names of the schools Mozart attended. But here too no answer is essential.

You seem to be focusing on a false dichotomy of your own making. You are clearly stating that proper compositional ability can only be acquired through specific academic training, and then gloat over the fact Mozart did not receive said academic education when the whole idea is based on a fallacy.

The thing is, of course, that Myslivececk in the early 1770's was writing phenomenal music - music almost unheard today. Just a single example.

Except there's nothing really special or phenomenal about it. It's an average low classical piece in the typical Mannheim style of the times. It's obvious that you know absolutely nothing about the genius of Mozart or what makes his music unique in an age of extreme stylistic uniformity.

[Joe Barron]

And the fact that other people were writing good music at the time does not prove Mozart did not write any. It's a nonsequitor.

[bwv 1080]

Unlike the rest of you closed-minded people who uncritically accept the music establishment party line, I spent the morning investigating Mr. Newman's allegations and found some shocking facts on my own.  Why would a washed up child performer become the greatest composer in Western history?  It may make a good movie script, but it beggars logic.  Now what else do we know for a fact about WA Mozart?  His ties to the freemasons.  We also know how the tentacles of freemasonary reached all the way through 18th century society and its plots to subvert the Church.  I found one document that refers to a Masonic attempt to spark worldwide revolution through subliminally encoding subversive messages in music.  A cabal of freemason composers worked to create the music with Wolfgang serving at the frontman.  The signal for the launch of this program was in 1773 when the illuminati were finally successful in obtaining the Papal suppression of the Jesuits, who had been on the verge of discovering the plot.  With the way clear, Mozart was appointed that year to the Salzburg Court with the eventual goal of moving to the seat of the Holy Roman Empire itself, from that point a lethal delivery of cultural poison could be made.  The key points of the plot centered around creating subversive operas which could be performed for not only nobles, but bourgeois and commoners as well.  This we know was done.  The plot culminated with in 1789 with the French Revolution.  After a few more years when it was apparant that the plan was only a limited success, with no revolution occuring in the Empire or the rest of Europe it was decided by the illuminati that Mozart had served his purpose.  Their one last act was to kill their patsy, an act which served to signal the beginning of the Reign of Terror in France.  Masonic power waned in the early 19th century with the defeat of Napoleon and the restoration of the Jesuits, the nadir was Pius X's 1903 encyclical Tra le Sollecitudini where he denounced the "Vienesse" (a code word for Freemason) influence on music.   The Illuminati made an attempt at reviving the strategy in 1979 when the technology of mass communication had improved by launching the play Amadeus, which was launched with the goal of an eventual movie.  An unintended consequence of this move was the collapse of the very same communist revolution in Europe that they had worked so long to forment - rather than spurring revolutionary outbreaks across the Christian world, the movie sparked an uprising against the Bolshevik regimes in Europe.  Frustrated with their attempts at mass communication the Illuminati turned in the early 90s to their Eastern brethren who, having created the religion of Islam in the 7th century, had another more interesting weapon at their disposal.

[Joe Barron]

Unlike the rest of you closed-minded people who uncritically accept the music establishment party line, I spent the morning investigating Mr. Newman's allegations and found some shocking facts on my own.  Why would a washed up child performer become the greatest composer in Western history?  It may make a good movie script, but it beggars logic.  Now what else do we know for a fact about WA Mozart?  His ties to the freemasons.  We also know how the tentacles of freemasonary reached all the way through 18th century society and its plots to subvert the Church.  I found one document that refers to a Masonic attempt to spark worldwide revolution through subliminally encoding subversive messages in music.  A cabal of freemason composers worked to create the music with Wolfgang serving at the frontman.  The signal for the launch of this program was in 1773 when the illuminati were finally successful in obtaining the Papal suppression of the Jesuits, who had been on the verge of discovering the plot.  With the way clear, Mozart was appointed that year to the Salzburg Court with the eventual goal of moving to the seat of the Holy Roman Empire itself, from that point a lethal delivery of cultural poison could be made.  The key points of the plot centered around creating subversive operas which could be performed for not only nobles, but bourgeois and commoners as well.  This we know was done.  The plot culminated with in 1789 with the French Revolution.  After a few more years when it was apparant that the plan was only a limited success, with no revolution occuring in the Empire or the rest of Europe it was decided by the illuminati that Mozart had served his purpose.  Their one last act was to kill their patsy, an act which served to signal the beginning of the Reign of Terror in France.  Masonic power waned in the early 19th century with the defeat of Napoleon and the restoration of the Jesuits, the nadir was Pius X's 1903 encyclical Tra le Sollecitudini where he denounced the "Vienesse" (a code word for Freemason) influence on music.   The Illuminati made an attempt at reviving the strategy in 1979 when the technology of mass communication had improved by launching the play Amadeus, which was launched with the goal of an eventual movie.  An unintended consequence of this move was the collapse of the very same communist revolution in Europe that they had worked so long to forment - rather than spurring revolutionary outbreaks across the Christian world, the movie sparked an uprising against the Bolshevik regimes in Europe.  Frustrated with their attempts at mass communication the Illuminati turned in the early 90s to their Eastern brethren who, having created the religion of Islam in the 7th century, had another more interesting weapon at their disposal.

This is either a brilliant parody or the steamiest pile of manure I have ever read. I'll go with the former.  

[Florestan]

Mr. Newman, can you produce here on GMG evidence for your claims?

[robnewman]

So we come full circle. There is not a shred of evidence that Mozart actually studied music. There is no more evidence of him studying composition than there is of my next door neighbour's cat qualifying to be a dental surgeon. Nor is there any evidence that Mozart was specially skilled in writing music. The living proof of this can be demonstrated in such works as that which he produced for Padre Martini during his entrance exam to the academy in Bologna Italy. This is filled with errors and is music that shows he had NO real knowledge of harmony or of the rudiments of music theory. And there are dozens of other examples.

Let's stop this nonsense. Babies do not fly 747's. Nor do young boys write symphonies. Let alone good ones. For in both cases they require detailed study of the technical requirements involved. This Mozart never had. Nor did he spend even a single day in a school. That is the plain fact.

Genius ? Not at all. Roadshow ? Of course.

[Joe Barron]

Mr. Newman, can you produce here on GMG evidence for your claims?

I think he's been doing that, and hitherto, the evidence has cinsisrted of several a priori assumptions about what Mozart could and could not have accomplished. And that other composers were doing good work at the time, which somehow proves that Mozart couldn't.