...please SQs me...

[snyprrr]

A few hours later and words cannot express...everything is the best that it is. I'm listening to Brahms No.2 in a minor right now...
is the only smiley face that comes close...the ABQ is shockingly great, I don't know what else to say. Can I get a witness???

[snyprrr]

The Alwyn album is a clear winner, IMO.  I'm listening to the Arnold right now and enjoying them although it's only my 2nd or 3rd listening.

I just had virgin listenings of the Arnold No.2 and Alwyn No.2 "Spring Waters." My reaction was the opposite of Feanor's! (see beginning of discussion) The Alwyn started in Szymanowski/misterioso territory and I thought remained very enigmatic throughout... and meaty. It will take a few listens. (plus I could have used a smidge more acoustics for both cds)

The Arnold I thought was an instant classic, so passionate and lyrical and strangely formed. The slow movement I found truly exceptional. The scherzo was unique. Everything seemed to come straight from the heart of a grieving father.

Both of these SQs are known for their "darkness", but it is a very peculiar twilight darkness...bittersweet (though difficult here and there), and though neither had the kind "misterioso" that opens the last mvmt. of Britten's No.3, both were more personal, and perhaps more human. All three point to an interesting thing happening with British SQs in the mid 70s. The end of the empire.

[snyprrr]

Again today, totally impressed by Arnold 1-2 + Phantasy.

[Fëanor]

I just had virgin listenings of the Arnold No.2 and Alwyn No.2 "Spring Waters." My reaction was the opposite of Feanor's! (see beginning of discussion) The Alwyn started in Szymanowski/misterioso territory and I thought remained very enigmatic throughout... and meaty. It will take a few listens. (plus I could have used a smidge more acoustics for both cds)

The Arnold I thought was an instant classic, so passionate and lyrical and strangely formed. The slow movement I found truly exceptional. The scherzo was unique. Everything seemed to come straight from the heart of a grieving father.

Both of these SQs are known for their "darkness", but it is a very peculiar twilight darkness...bittersweet (though difficult here and there), and though neither had the kind "misterioso" that opens the last mvmt. of Britten's No.3, both were more personal, and perhaps more human. All three point to an interesting thing happening with British SQs in the mid 70s. The end of the empire.

snyprr, well I listen once again the Arnold No. 2, (really only the 3rd time I've heard it), and also the Alwyn No. 2.  For a start let me say that you have typified these quartets very accurately, i.e. "Both of these SQs are known for their "darkness", but it is a very peculiar twilight darkness...". Brilliantly well put.

There is no questioning the merit of the Arnold No.2; the slow movement certainly is outstanding as you mention.  Nevertheless the I still prefer the Alwyn No. 2; that is likely just my disposition.  I will say I find the Alwyn more unified and coherent from movement to movement: are the same themes or variations used more repeatedly? (I don't read or play music so I might have this all wrong.)  BTW, I like the Alwyn's 2nd movement, the Allegro sherzano in particular.

For good measure and balance I also listen to Britten's No. 2, Szymanowski's No. 1, Ligeti's No. 1 & 2.  It's just me no doubt, but I don't fine Szymanowki or the 3rd movement of Britten's particularly "misterioso".  That descriptor I would reserve for Ligeti's No. 2 among this bunch.  As a matter of fact the one  I enjoyed most today was Ligiti's No. 1:  another dark one, perhaps a bit darker still, even tormented.

[greg]

Sorry to butt in - Wikipedia is useful for such questions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936_in_music#Classical_music

Wow, 1936 was an awesome year for music!

[snyprrr]

It's just me no doubt, but I don't fine Szymanowki or the 3rd movement of Britten's particularly "misterioso".

The Alwyn/Szymanowski moment is the VERY beginning of Alwyn No.2, the sort of "rocking" motion, that seems to be the same kind of thing that starts off "one" of the Szymanowski SQs (I can't remember which one. If you listened to No.1, try No.2...but it's just the very beginning). And the "misterioso" is the beginning of the last mvmt of Britten's No.3. Yea, no mystery in Britten's No.2.

[snyprrr]

I have just heard Hugo Wolf's SQ (1879-84) for the first time.

4 mvmts=@42min

Which was the first, best, or otherwise the succession of SQs after Beethoven, as per modernity? I argue for the highly charged and visionary Romantic canon:

"late Beethoven"

Wolf
Busoni No.2

Schoenberg No.1 Op.7

Berg Op.3

Webern...

In other words, the first "modern" SQ (w/Brahms and Dvorak, et al, the more conservative)after LvB is either Wolf, Busoni No.2, or Schoenberg No.1. In either case, this Wolf SQ (LaSalle DG) reminds me of Ives? It, more so than any other tortured artist SQ of the romantic era, really seems to have been "written with a pencil," so etched in dark brown, green, and black hues its fevered artist's madness. Maybe a little red too!
I mean, it has that hyper romantic condition, but it's happening for the very first time to Wolf... sonata rules fail under Wolf's wanderingly jaunty and incisively moody agenda. Van Gogh's SQ!
It wasn't premiered until 1903, which makes me wonder what impact it had on Schoenberg's Op.7...hmmm...

Calling it LvB's Op.127 in Eb on absinthe might not be far off.

[Fëanor]

The Alwyn/Szymanowski moment is the VERY beginning of Alwyn No.2, the sort of "rocking" motion, that seems to be the same kind of thing that starts off "one" of the Szymanowski SQs (I can't remember which one. If you listened to No.1, try No.2...but it's just the very beginning). And the "misterioso" is the beginning of the last mvmt of Britten's No.3. Yea, no mystery in Britten's No.2.

But incidentally, when I said I listened to Britten's No. 2 it was a typo, in fact it was No. 3 I was referrring to.

[Fëanor]

I have just heard Hugo Wolf's SQ (1879-84) for the first time.
...

I'll look forward to hearing Busconi, (2nd, 1880 per AMG, if I got that right), and Wolf, (completed 1884 per AMG).  I haven't heard them yet.

People better informed than me might agree with your assessment of their modernity, but it's certain that Beethoven's late quartets sound well ahead of their time.

[Joe Barron]

IVES NO. 2!

[snyprrr]

Just listened to Brahms No.3 in Bb Op.67 for the very first time (ABQ). I guess I thought it was going to be slightly in Brahms' autumnal vein (I don't know why), but the opening mvmt. caught me off guard, and when the solo violin starts streaking around like some awesome electric guitar solo (sorry, it does remind me of rock stars) this mvmt really burns down the house! Most awesome solo I think I've heard in SQ form. And I think the slow mvmt might be the most straightforwardly beautiful. Brahms' harmonies seem "straight up" to me (like Bach), but with a polished sheen...every note perfectly placed...the slow mvmt has an orchestral writing I haven't heard before.

The last two mvmts defied expectations again, and the SQ does NOT end in what I would think is typical SQ fashion. Some of the variations of the last mvmt get into "lullaby" territory, and the SQ ends fairly peacefully, unlike any SQ I know. This SQ sounded a lot different to me than Brahms furst two SQs: it DOES have a sauve, "modern" (though still conservative) feel to it, sleek, classic lines, like the uber-quartet, like the most expensive car. The first mvmt is by far the most dramatic, and the next three...oh, it's all just Germania! Ah!

The absolute perfection of Brahms' last quartet seems to highlight for me all the more the manic, utterly "Romanic" (I always like the word "gothic" in the Poe-ish sense) waywardness and hair trigger moodiness of Wolf's SQ.

I also have been hearing the ABQ's version of Dvorak No.13 in G, a big big work, but I find some disturbing things about it. Apparently this is the only recording by the ABQ that has garnered some criticism. They play "perfectly", full throttle and even a wee wee "brutal", but I don't know if it's them or something about the music, but I've had more of a hard time liking Dvorak 13-14 than I thought I would have. Early Dvorak (1, 2-4, 5-8, 9-11) is a closed book. Aren't the options few?

[Fëanor]

IVES NO. 2!

I comment on Ives' No. 2 recently that I found it grating and just couldn't get into it.  (I'll try and try again from time to time.)

I'm a musical illiterate and generally miss the redeeming subtlties, but Ives is a composer I just don't get.  His works leave me dissatisfied with what I hear or worse.  His works I've heard seem like gratuitiously discordant pastiches.

[ChamberNut]

Hindemith string quartets are quite a serious gap in my listening yet.

Now that hit my curiosity radar.  I will have to check these out.

[Guido]

I comment on Ives' No. 2 recently that I found it grating and just couldn't get into it.  (I'll try and try again from time to time.)

I'm a musical illiterate and generally miss the redeeming subtlties, but Ives is a composer I just don't get.  His works leave me dissatisfied with what I hear or worse.  His works I've heard seem like gratuitiously discordant pastiches.

Astonishing. I genuinely find his music to be one of the most moving, beautiful, subtle and satisfying body of works by any composer of any period. I'm thankful almost every day that I discovered it. My advice: keep trying!

[Joe Barron]

Astonishing. I genuinely find his music to be one of the most moving, beautiful, subtle and satisfying body of works by any composer of any period. I'm thankful almost every day that I discovered it. My advice: keep trying!

I knew there was a reason I've always liked Guido.

The finale of the second is, to my ear, one of the most sublime moments in all of music. The gratuitously discordant pastiche, if that's what you want to call it, occurs mostly in the second movement, although I find that too engaging: raucous and spirited and actually funny. Interestingly, Jan swafford, Ives's most sympathetic  biographer, says he doesn't care for the SQ2. He finds it too angry and diffuse, although he does add that the finale more or less redeems everything that has gone before. In other words, without the finale, it would be nothing. I think he's full of it, but that's my own prejudice. Part of Swafford's agenda in "A Life With Music" was, I think, to rebrand Ives from the father of modernism to the grandfather of postmodernism. In this view, his dissonances, tone clusters and polyrhythms are less important than his attempt to unify of popular and high art, and he assumes a greater spiritual affinity with the likes of William Bolcom than with Elliott Carter. The SQ2 is too recalcitrantly "modern" to advance the program.

[Guido]

I knew there was a reason I've always liked Guido.

The finale of the second is, to my ear, one of the most sublime moments in all of music. The gratuitously discordant pastiche, if that's what you want to call it, occurs mostly in the second movement, although I find that too engaging: raucous and spirited and actually funny. Interestingly, Jan swafford, Ives's most sympathetic  biographer, says he doesn't care for the SQ2. He finds it too angry and diffuse, although he does add that the finale more or less redeems everything that has gone before. In other words, without the finale, it would be nothing. I think he's full of it, but that's my own prejudice. Part of Swafford's agenda in "A Life With Music" was, I think, to rebrand Ives from the father of modernism to the grandfather of postmodernism. In this view, his dissonances, tone clusters and polyrhythms are less important than his attempt to unify of popular and high art, and he assumes a greater spiritual affinity with the likes of William Bolcom than with Elliott Carter. The SQ2 is too recalcitrantly "modern" to advance the program.

That's a fascinating take Joe, and one which I agree with - this is exactly what Swafford tries to do, and he makes a most compelling case for it. It would be a severe disservise to Ives to summarise his achievement as just an innovator - these things are always at the service of a higher ideal and concept in his music.

With regards to the second movement - I absolutely love it (predictably) - but even the bits where he's trying to parody the 'old girls' and 'pansies' (depicted by the character of Rollo(?)) I find breathlessly beautiful - but just as good are the fantastically discordent and searingly intense outcrys that usually follow them. But I do wonder whether the 'nice' bits are just too lovely for his parody to fully work - i.e. maybe they should be more twee and crass... Of course it has to work as abstract music too, and this must be the first time that anyone's arguing that music is too beautiful!

[snyprrr]

ok...BEST versions of Ives on record? Anyone have more than 5 versions?

There's a recording of No.2 tuned to just temperment, or something like that? It's on a microtonal cd with Partch, etc...

The Concord SQ/Nonesuch isn't on cd, is it?

[Guido]

ok...BEST versions of Ives on record? Anyone have more than 5 versions?

There's a recording of No.2 tuned to just temperment, or something like that? It's on a microtonal cd with Partch, etc...

The Concord SQ/Nonesuch isn't on cd, is it?

Wow, never heard of that one - sounds interesting!

[Joe Barron]

ok...BEST versions of Ives on record? Anyone have more than 5 versions?

There's a recording of No.2 tuned to just temperment, or something like that? It's on a microtonal cd with Partch, etc...

The Concord SQ/Nonesuch isn't on cd, is it?

I'll take that bet: I've got the Kohon, Juilliard, Concord, Lydian, Leipzig and Blair --- first three on LP, last three on CD. I also had the Cleveland but dumped it. It wasn't very good, imo, taking the last movement too fast.  The Concord recording, the best, in my estimation, is not available on CD. A Juilliard CD surfaced and disappeared in short order. That is also a great performance. The ones readily available on CD (Lydian leipzig Blair) are all good, though. I'd go with the Leipzig, on MD&G. Very fine performance, and the CD includes not only the two numbered SQs, but several smaller pieces as well. I have a soft spot in my heart for the Kohon, since it's the first Ives recording I ever owned. I'm not sure if it's on CD. There is a recording of the second on the same CD as pieces by Partch and Harrison, but i am not familiar with it. I'd love to hear it, though, if it is, as you say, justly intoned.

Guido, I answered your last post on the Ives thread.

[Joe Barron]

Oops, forgot: I also have the Emerson version.

Yeah, it's a good one, too.

I'm sorry, but after a while, it's hard to draw fine distinctions between so many different versions.