Mozart a fraud?

[robnewman]

No one here has used the words "musical superstar" vis a vis Mozart. That kind of vulgar thinking is totally yours, and is no doubt a main source for your massive resentment towards Mozart.

As to Mozart's success as a performer-composer: in his succesful years he gave many subscription concerts, from which he made money, which allowed him a rather lavish life style (see his address history), which later gave him much trouble.

But this too is false. Let's take the well known subscription series of Lent 1784 as an example. By 1789 his alleged 'patrons' had dwindled to only ONE name, Baron Swieten. So much for that !!!

And the alleged Lent concerts of Mozart in 1784 (in front of a supposed 150 patrons) are themselves a fiction. They never occurred. It's fiction.

[not edward]

And the alleged Lent concerts of Mozart in 1784 (in front of a supposed 150 patrons) are themselves a fiction. They never occurred. It's fiction.

Evidence, please? Or is it going to be as lacking as the other evidence you've been asked for in this thread?

[robnewman]

Yes, one example suffices to falsify Newman's claim.  As I said, I've not personally examined Viennese newspaper archives, but I have seen citations of subscription announcements and contemporary performance reviews, for instance, and not only in Vienna but elsewhere such as Prague, and a particularly telling citation to a Berlin newspaper story about his death, published shortly after.

Don't you think the best way to argue is to produce some evidence in favour of your view ? I mean, this is the second time you are displaying your admission that you have none at all. So why don't you produce some evidence ?

We want newspaper reports showing that Mozart was a celebrated virtuoso, composer and performer of his own works in Vienna during this entire decade (1781-1791). And we are still waiting.

[DavidRoss]

As to Mozart's success as a performer-composer: in his succesful years he gave many subscription concerts, from which he made money, which allowed him a rather lavish life style (see his address history), which later gave him much trouble.

Yes.  See, for instance, this review of Volkmar Braunbehrens's Mozart in Wien.

[robnewman]

Evidence, please? Or is it going to be as lacking as the other evidence you've been asked for in this thread?

We are still waiting for ANY evidence that Mozart is refered to in newspapers of Vienna during the entire decade when he was (supposedly) a great musical celebrity, performer and composer there. And you see that nobody can produce it. Just a coincidence, right ?

The Lent concerts of 1784 in Vienna are hogwash, science fiction, nonsense.

[not edward]

We are still waiting for ANY evidence that Mozart is refered to in newspapers of Vienna during the entire decade when he was (supposedly) a great musical celebrity, performer and composer there. And you see that nobody can produce it. Just a coincidence, right ?

The Lent concerts of 1784 in Vienna are hogwash, science fiction, nonsense.

So you admit you are not going to produce any evidence for your own view?

[robnewman]

Yes.  See, for instance, this review of Volkmar Braunbehrens's Mozart in Wien.

OK, let's have the newspaper quotes right here. Don't just throw a book at us. We want to see evidence of Mozart being a famous composer, performer and virtuoso in Vienna during this decade.

And we are STILL waiting. Care to give us some ? I mean, which part of this message do you still not understand ? 

[robnewman]

So you admit you are not going to produce any evidence for your own view?

I am saying that I am happy to provide evidence for the Lent Concerts of 1784 being a fiction. But let's deal with the issue that has been running before your request first. Let's have newspaper reports confirming Mozart's fame in Vienna as a composer, virtuoso and performer during this decade of 1781-1791. You see we are STILL waiting for such reports and soon we will be on another page. As David Ross says -

'Yes, one example suffices to falsify Newman's claim'.

Now come on ! Let's have your evidence. 

[Todd]

And we are STILL waiting. Care to give us some ? I mean, which part of this message do you still not understand ?

This is an excellent series of sentences, Bob.  Just precisely when will you provide any evidence to support your claims?  Evidence would have to be verifiable sources.  I'll give you an easy one, provide documented, verifiable evidence that "By 1789 his alleged 'patrons' had dwindled to only ONE name, Baron Swieten."  Source name, date, location, etc.  

I predict you cannot.

[not edward]

I am saying that I am happy to provide evidence for the Lent Concerts of 1784 being a fiction. But let's deal with the issue that has been running before your request first. Let's have newspaper reports confirming Mozart's fame in Vienna as a composer, virtuoso and performer during this decade of 1781-1791. You see we are STILL waiting for such reports and soon we will be on another page.

Translation: you do not have evidence for the Lent Concerts being a fiction.

However, when presented with evidence of newspaper reports confirming Mozart's fame in Vienna as a composer, you insist on the original newspaper reports because you assume it's unlikely there's anyone on this board who happens to be living in Vienna, speaking German, and having access to the original archives.

[robnewman]

Translation: you do not have evidence for the Lent Concerts being a fiction.

However, when presented with evidence of newspaper reports confirming Mozart's fame in Vienna as a composer, you insist on the original newspaper reports because you assume it's unlikely there's anyone on this board who happens to be living in Vienna, speaking German, and having access to the original archives.

Well, yes I DO have evidence that the 1784 concerts are fraudulent. Let's first see if you and your colleagues will finally produce some newspaper reports of Mozart being a well known and celebrated composer/performer of his own music in Vienna during the decade he lived there (1781-1791). And as soon as they can do this I will present the 1784 evidence.

And we are STILL waiting !!!

If nobody can do it soon, yes, we will turn to 1784. But goodness, what's wrong with these people ? Why can't they provide what we are all waiting for ?

[not edward]

Well, yes I DO have evidence that the 1784 concerts are fraudulent.

No, you don't.

Let's first see if you and your colleagues will finally produce some newspaper reports of Mozart being a well known and celebrated composer/performer of his own music in Vienna during the decade he lived there (1781-1791). And as soon as they can do this I will present the 1784 evidence.

They did present evidence of the newspaper reports. You ignored it because it made a mockery of your conspiracy theory.

Then you (effectively) demanded that someone fly to Vienna, get access to newspaper archives, find the relevant articles, translate them and post them on this forum. All within about 30 minutes. And tried to present the fact that nobody did that as evidence you're right. How laughable.

[Josquin des Prez]

Well, yes I DO have evidence that the 1784 concerts are fraudulent.

Then show it us.

[robnewman]

Then show it us.

No, we are first going to see some of the documentary evidence from Vienna newspapers of the time (1781-1791) of Mozart's high reputation as a composer/performer of his own music there in Vienna. At the fifth time of asking. Easy, right ?

Maybe you and your colleagues are finding this harder than you thought ? Must exist, yes ?

As soon as they give up I will gladly discuss the 1784 concerts (alleged) over Lent, these given (so we are told) by W.A. Mozart in Vienna. Let's deal with these first things first.

And we are STILL waiting ? I wonder who is the fraud now ?

Care for a cup of tea while we are waiting ?   LOL !!

[Herman]

Don't you think the best way to argue is to produce some evidence in favour of your view ?

Hahahaha, hilarious!

Maybe we need to go back to page three or four of this thread, when Newman made his first claims, saying he was going to prove and argue Mozart was a fraud. Ten pages later (I believe) he admitted that he had no evidence ("can't prove a negative") and that the onus of evidence was on us.

The onus of proof is not on us. We don't have to prove the earth is round, either.

Many new controversial claims have been piled upon the previous, unsubstantiated one, and yet we're back on square one: asked for proof, Newman is saying we should provide proof Mozart is an extraordinary composer. Well, Mozart's music is the evidence.

[not edward]

To respond to your latest, I merely need to quote an earlier post of mine:

They did present evidence of the newspaper reports. You ignored it because it made a mockery of your conspiracy theory.

Then you (effectively) demanded that someone fly to Vienna, get access to newspaper archives, find the relevant articles, translate them and post them on this forum. All within about 30 minutes. And tried to present the fact that nobody did that as evidence you're right. How laughable.

By the way, have you ever read:

O.E.Deutsch: Mozart: A Documentary Biography, trans. Eric Blom, Peter Branscombe, and Jeremy Noble [Stanford, Calif.: Stanford University Press, 1965; reprint, London: Simon & Schuster, 1990]
Cliff Eisen: New Mozart Documents: A Supplement to O. E. Deutsch's Documentary Biography [Stanford: Stanford University Press, 1991]

You'll find all the newspaper reports you want in those two. Or are you going to claim they're in on the conspiracy too?

[robnewman]

Maybe we need to go back to page three or four of this thread, when Newman made his first claims, saying he was going to prove and argue Mozart was a fraud. Ten pages later (I believe) he admitted that he had no evidence ("can't prove a negative") and that the onus of evidence was on us.

The onus of proof is not on us. We don't have to prove the earth is round, either.

Many new controversial claims have been piled upon the previous, unsubstantiated one, and yet we're back on square one: asked for proof, Newman is saying we should provide proof Mozart is an extraordinary composer. Well, Mozart's music is the evidence.

So you can't produce ANY newspaper evidence from the entire decade (1781-1791) that Mozart was a celebrated composer and performer of his music during that last decade in Vienna ? You just believe it, right ? 

[Herman]

see Edward's post above.

[robnewman]

To respond to your latest, I merely need to quote an earlier post of mine:

By the way, have you ever read:

O.E.Deutsch: Mozart: A Documentary Biography, trans. Eric Blom, Peter Branscombe, and Jeremy Noble [Stanford, Calif.: Stanford University Press, 1965; reprint, London: Simon & Schuster, 1990]
Cliff Eisen: New Mozart Documents: A Supplement to O. E. Deutsch's Documentary Biography [Stanford: Stanford University Press, 1991]

You'll find all the newspaper reports you want in those two. Or are you going to claim they're in on the conspiracy too?

You are just listing the names of books. Why don't you give us some actual newspaper evidence from this decade if it's in these books ? This is now the 7th consecutive request for such basic information and we are all STILL waiting. It's laughable !  Would anyone buy a used car from these frauds ?

Care for some more tea ?

[DavidRoss]

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The link below leads to a sample page demonstrating the breadth and depth of resources available, starting with the entry for Mary Hunter's The Culture of Opera Buffa in Mozart's Vienna:  A Poetics of Entertainment.  Halfway down the page is the start of a listing including hundreds of scholarly resources on Mozart's time in Vienna, the complete texts of which are available through the site.  Numerous preview pages are available at no cost, including indexes and bibliographies.  A free trial subscription is available, and a full subscription costs only $20/mo.

http://www.questia.com/library/book/the-culture-of-opera-buffa-in-mozarts-vienna-a-poetics-of-entertainment-by-mary-hunter.jsp