Beethoven's Late Piano Sonatas... Who Reigns Supreme?

[matti]

Backhauss -- the most overrated pianist ever. Four square and ham fisted, even in the famous ones like OP 110. I don't like nearly every post war record of his I have heard (pre war -- different story)

Yes, well, you could say that Backhaus is the Thelonius Monk of the classical piano. But then, I don't like Monk for his virtuosity but for the musical insights. The same with Backhaus - there's something about his no-nonsense, just-swallowed-a-huge-pole approach to Beethoven that somehow perversely entices my deeply, albeit unconsciously, Lutheran soul.

[Mandryka]

I am mildly suprised of no mention of Rosen. He seems to get much love around the web for his set.

It did cross my mind! I do like him.

But although the set is interesting it's not really competitive with the best.

Yes, well, you could say that Backhaus is the Thelonius Monk of the classical piano. But then, I don't like Monk for his virtuosity but for the musical insights. The same with Backhaus - there's something about his no-nonsense, just-swallowed-a-huge-pole approach to Beethoven that . . .

OK -- spell it out for me.

Pick a sonata and explain the insights -- I don't mean to sound agresive: I am curious, and I hope you prove me wrong.

I have the stereo set and the GPOC performances (from a Carnegie Hall recital in the 50s)

[George]

I am mildly suprised of no mention of Rosen. He seems to get much love around the web for his set.

I have his set, but haven't got to it yet.

[George]

Pick a sonata and explain the insights -- I don't mean to sound agresive: I am curious, and I hope you prove me wrong.

My two cents:

I didn't warm to Backhaus easily. My suggestion would be to somehow listen to the music as if it isn't Beethoven, as if you haven't heard it before. I use the same approach with Kempff and really enjoy both as a result.

However, if I want Beethoven, I look elsewhere.

[jlaurson]

However, if I want Beethoven, I look elsewhere.

Uh-waht? Seriously? Hmmm... would have thought you to have had an easier time with Backhaus. The stripping away of anything that isn't essential. Never individual trees, always the forest.

Maybe you can netflix that DVD... the LvB 4th is just stunning and--I think--really good at revealing what's actually great beneath all that understatement.

[Franco]

I'd say, Arrau, but what I have is a download.  So, I'll grab the Kempff 2-CD late set.

I can't tolerate Gould playing Beethoven or Mozart for that matter, but for those who love Gould and think Backhaus is overrated, well, different strokes ...

[matti]

Pick a sonata and explain the insights -- I don't mean to sound agresive: I am curious, and I hope you prove me wrong.

Oh, I'm afraid I won't go into that much detail. I'm not even implying that I could point out how a particular theme/development/movement logically leads to another, but that's IMO Backhaus' forte, however, not details. If I were building a house, I would not hire Backhaus as the interior designer, but I could consider him as the architect. Someone, I think jaurson, mentioned understatement, and that may be one of the key words understanding his way of approaching music. You can't expect anything flashy or even suave from this geezer. I am not a huge fan, I'm not particularly fond of his tone production, but I like his playing reasonably much.

[George]

Uh-waht? Seriously? Hmmm... would have thought you to have had an easier time with Backhaus. The stripping away of anything that isn't essential. Never individual trees, always the forest.

I enjoy the details, so Backhaus was hard for me to enjoy at first. That and the fact that his fast movements are taken rather slow and his slow movements taken rather fast. I prefer the opposite.  

On the other hand, no one conveyed the overall structure of the sonatas better than him. His Beethoven makes perfect sense. I read a reviewer once that said his performances were carved out of granite. I think that's a fitting description.

One thing you can say about him (and Kempff for that matter), no one plays Beethoven like they do.

[Mandryka]

I'd say, Arrau, but what I have is a download.  So, I'll grab the Kempff 2-CD late set.

I can't tolerate Gould playing Beethoven or Mozart for that matter, but for those who love Gould and think Backhaus is overrated, well, different strokes ...

Gould takes risks and in Beethoven he sometimes fails. In Mozart more so.

But I think in both cases there are some fantastic performances.

Not just the ones I listed in my first post -- Hammer, opus 110 from Stockholm, late bagatelles, but also others, including a superb Pastoral Piso  and the "Quasi una Fantasia".

In Mozart there are some great piso performances: KV457, 333,330 to name three -- but most of all I can't sleep at night unless I am sure that his  K475 is safe.

And maybe best of the lot is his 24-Pico  -- unbelievable in the Variations Movement. Not the live one from Stockholm . but the studio one. I think that it is one of the greatest Mozart Pico performances of all time.

I know this is OT -- but I am curious to know what people think of his Beethoven 4-Pico.

[matti]

understatement, and that may be one of the key words understanding his way of approaching music.  

You made me think a bit, Mandryka, and I have to disagree with my earlier post which I'm rather embarrassingly quoting here. I also listened to some of my few Backhaus recordings.

Backhaus may understate the poetry aspect, but his bold, robust, often wayward and sometimes almost vulgar manner could be rather described as overstating his individual view of each work. However, I still like his playing - he seems to understand where he's coming from and where he's going to at any given moment. Eagle's eye on the piece, if you like.

George, yes, I agree that there are similarities with Kempff. Like Backhaus, I admire Kempff more as a musician than as a pianist. Both lock their wrists and play mostly with fingers (I'm exaggerating of course), and thus esp. in fortissimos they make the piano sound what it actually is -  a percussive instrument.

[George]

Gould takes risks and in Beethoven he sometimes fails. In Mozart more so.

But I think in both cases there are some fantastic performances.

Have you heard Levy's Beethoven?

He takes chances too and IMO it pays off. I've only heard Disc 1 Vol. 3, but so far it's impressive Beethoven.

[Mandryka]

Have you heard Levy's Beethoven?

He takes chances too and IMO it pays off. I've only heard Disc 1 Vol. 3, but so far it's impressive Beethoven.

It's very great -- at least in Op 131. I like his Hammer too.

But he's got such a strong personality -- I'm often not in the mood for the strength of it.

Yudina is a bit like that -- strong, forceful personality, I mean.

But most of all Nyiregyhazi -- though he didn't do any Beethoven as far as I know.

Have you tried Levy's Liszt and Haydn -- they're pretty good too.

Isn't it a shame we have so little Beethoven from Moiseiewitch, and Cortot (though I believe Cortot was famous for his Beethoven Concertos in his day). Imagine Cortot in those late Beethoven sonatas! And Hoffman.

[George]

Isn't it a shame we have so little Beethoven from Moiseiewitch, and Cortot (though I believe Cortot was famous for his Beethoven Concertos in his day). Imagine Cortot in those late Beethoven sonatas! And Hoffman.

I think that Cortot recorded the 32 sonatas, didn't he? Or was that just a rumor?

[Todd]

I think that Cortot recorded the 32 sonatas, didn't he? Or was that just a rumor?

The rumor is that he recorded them in the 50s and nixed their release.  Supposedly the recordings are sitting in EMI's vaults. 

[George]

The rumor is that he recorded them in the 50s and nixed their release.  Supposedly the recordings are sitting in EMI's vaults. 

Thanks for the info, Todd.

I imagine that they could certainly be released, should EMI decide to. Nothing legal can get in the way, unless I am mistaken.

[Mandryka]

They may be very bad -- lots of slips.

I enjoy those late Cortot recordings which Naxos have released though -- the Kinderszenen and Schumann Etudes from 1953 -- and the Chopin B minor sonata.

And one of my favourite Cortot recordings is very late -- from APR with Kinderszenen and some Chopin and Debussy from APR. In fact I prefer his 40s Schumann to his 30s Schumann.

This pianist was so good that he's going to be worth hearing even in late Beethoven recorded in the 50s I suspect.

[Herman]

So I take it that you will calmly walk away emptyhanded, with the smell of melting jewel-cases hanging thick in the air, with the comforting realization that no artist is best in everything. It is admirable to sacrifice for one's principles.

I can walk away from Beethoven any time, pal.

[Holden]

OK, the house is burning down and I can take away two sets of Opp 101 - 111. I've just happened burn my five favourite recordings that Richter made of these - they're going with me. I'd also take Solomon.

[sam adams]

OK, the house is burning down and I can take away two sets of Opp 101 - 111. I've just happened burn my five favourite recordings that Richter made of these - they're going with me. I'd also take Solomon.

Holden,

Could you let me know what Richter performances you would burn on those CDs. I have a few of his late ones on a Phillips set, but I confess I am woefully ignorant of Richter's different performances and where to find them.

[George]

Sam, you have a PM.