Interesting romantic composers

[Henk]

Wagner used music for his theatre, he was the great actor behind it himself. This in contrary to Shakespeare, who was the artist of his theatre work.
Many modern composers can be accused of the same thing Wagner was doing. They all make music consisting of effects, and in that sense they are all the actors behind their works instead of being the artists of their works, probably in a far less genius way as Wagner. Shouldn't you reflect on this, Bruce?

[karlhenning]

You ask me to summarize ("recap") Nietzsche. Can't you look it up yourself? I gave you the reference.

I can, certainly.  I would, if (all things being equal) I thought it would be relevant to the res.  But I suspect it would not.  Rather than just blow Nietzsche off, though, I gave you the opportunity to summarize his relevance.

I see that even though you brought him into the orbit of the discussion, he isn't worth your time, either.  Dleighted to find that we have this common bond, Henk!

[greg]

Don't agree. While I'm not religious I like the music of Messiaen. I like the religious sound. Religion has brought forth very beautiful things (but also war).

Well, they've never played Messiaen at my church (and never will!) 

that'd be nice, though...

[karlhenning]

Well, they've never played Messiaen at my church (and never will!) 

You've gotta have faith! 

[greg]

You've gotta have faith! 

Oh, it'll never never happen no matter how much faith I have, unfortunately 
Now, if I actually requested something and provided the sheet music, who knows...

[Franco]

Wagner used music for his theatre, he was the great actor behind it himself. This in contrary to Shakespeare, who was the artist of his theatre work.
Many modern composers can be accused of the same thing Wagner was doing. They all make music consisting of effects, and in that sense they are all the actors behind their works instead of being the artists of their works, probably in a far less genial way as Wagner. Shouldn't you reflect on this, Bruce?

Wagner wrote operas, or music-dramas as he called them - this is a specific kind of artistic work.  Shakespeare wrote plays, theatre works for the stage.  A play is a specific kind of artistic work.  They are not comparable, especially to make broad value judgments such as you (or Nietzsche) has done, i.e. music is a higher art than theatre.

I find that statement ridiculous on its face.  Music and theatre are both arts - along with painting, literature, dance, etc. - these are not hierarchal, IMO.  And to assume so is pointless, also IMO.  Each art expresses something unique to it - music can't do what theatre does, painting can't do with literature does, and vice versa.

You keep writing things like, "Many modern composers can be accused of the same thing Wagner was doing. They all make music consisting of effects ..." which I find to be a value judgment of a kind that causes me to wonder if you really know anything about listening to music.  

"Effects" = "Gestures" = "Musical Elements" = "The Composing Process" = "The Music".

I think I will stop visiting your threads because I find what you are interested in a complete waste of effort.

[Henk]

I would rather be biased by my own experience than by ideas expressed by a 19th century philosopher whose ideas about anything don't resonate with me.  I don't care why I prefer one composer's works over another, and I certainly do not think the music I like is "better" or "worse" than the music I don't like.  

Life is too short and I'd rather spend my spare time listening to music than on theories about music.  

You have more risk listening to and liking bad music then if you don't reflect on it and, worse, you may recommend bad music to others. In my perspective of course...

Reading Nietzsche is a personal experience as well!

Henk

[karlhenning]

You have more risk listening to bad music

I find the risk:reward ratio acceptable.

[karlhenning]

But if you run a zero-risk music portfolio, Henk, I admire your efforts.

[bhodges]

Many modern composers can be accused of the same thing Wagner was doing. They all make music consisting of effects, and in that sense they are all the actors behind their works instead of being the artists of their works, probably in a far less genius way as Wagner. Shouldn't you reflect on this, Bruce?

Since I'm not sure I understand "They all make music consisting of effects..." I don't really understand the clause that follows, either.

--Bruce

[Henk]

But if you run a zero-risk music portfolio, Henk, I admire your efforts.

Karl, I want to recommend good music to other people, not bad, then I feel ashamed and guilty.

[Franco]

You have more risk listening to and liking bad music then if you don't reflect on it and, worse, you may recommend bad music to others. In my perspective of course...

Reading Nietzsche is a personal experience as well!

Henk

Are you kidding?  Do you really believe this stuff?  Or are you just pulling my leg?  Because it is really funny.

[Henk]

"Effects" = "Gestures" = "Musical Elements" = "The Composing Process" = "The Music".

I think I will stop visiting your threads because I find what you are interested in a complete waste of effort.

No, the music consists of effects. And in that sense it's hardly music at all. This can easily be heard, when listening to that sort of music. In the music,
the composer is at work as the actor of his work. And it should be the case that the composer isn't at all at work when his work is performed.

Of course you are completely free to stop visiting my threads. I regret it, since I appreciate your contributions.

[Henk]

Are you kidding?  Do you really believe this stuff?  Or are you just pulling my leg?  Because it is really funny.

Probably magnanimity, Franco.  

[Dr. Dread]

I want to listen to only the one best piece of music because I don't want to hear any inferior stuff or else I might like it and then all hell will break loose and there will be floods and famines and the piercing of ears.

[DavidW]

But if you run a zero-risk music portfolio, Henk, I admire your efforts.

It consists of one work, Cage 4:33.

[71 dB]

Man, I want to quit this discussion.

Well, quit it. 

Once and for all:
Wagner realized a synthesis of theatre and music. With theatre being the lower form of art, theatre got control over music. Music degraded to second plan. This is Wagner's influence. All according to Nietzsche.

Look, I don't give rat's ass what Nietzsche has said. I come up with my own opinions. If Nietzsche was right, we should blame the composers of the first operas too; Peri, Monteverdi etc. 

[Franco]

Henk, what is music?

[Henk]

Are you kidding?  Do you really believe this stuff?  Or are you just pulling my leg?  Because it is really funny.

I want to listen to only the one best piece of music because I don't want to hear any inferior stuff or else I might like it and then all hell will break loose and there will be floods and famines and the piercing of ears.

It consists of one work, Cage 4:33.

I find this all very funny myself too!  0:)

[Henk]

Henk, what is music?

Art: "a creation of an artist in which the artist isn't at work (anymore)". Nicely put I think myself. An aesthetic description even!

Henk

--

Harry Mulisch read "The Adventures of Bram Vingerling" in his childhood. It inspired the young Mulisch wanting to become invisible.