Recordings That You Are Considering

[DavidW]

Did you even read my post?  I set that as the context for my recommendations.  I never thought it was "about" my taste, but when someone asks for recommendations they have to expect you to reply according to your taste, after all, there is no way I can know someone else's taste unless I know them very well.  

If you don't even know what his taste is at all, then why bother trying to "help" him?  That's not justification for your fortepiano rant, it is instead the reason why you shouldn't have posted in the first place.

But still, no more excuses.  In that one post you can tell that he likes HIP.  Why?  Because he said that he has three LvB HIP cycles, is considering a fourth, and was willing to put two fortepiano HIP box sets in his cart as well.  I'm not sure how you can read that and then say that you don't know anything about his taste at all.

[Franco]

Oh I see you point, unless I know someone's taste I should not offer my recommendations, and that I shoud assume that despite asking for recommendations, and admitting he hardly has any other recordings, I should assume he wants fortepiano recordings and cheer him on to spend his money.

Yes, I agree, I will attempt to follow these guidelines you have so wisely offered in the future and keep my big mouth shut, and try really hard to not indulge in anything that might be construed as a fortepiano rant.

[DavidW]

that I shoud assume that despite asking for recommendations,

Actually he did not ask for recommendations.  He asked to trim his cart down.  No where did he ask for suggestions on those sets.  One should logically infer that either (a) he meant to ask for recs but he just failed to, or (b) he was attempting to provide context to the priority of his cart, as it might be helpful.  I leaned towards (b) which to me is much more likely, you not only leaned towards (a) but you took a second step of imagining that he asked it.

and admitting he hardly has any other recordings, I should assume he wants fortepiano recordings and cheer him on to spend his money.

He wanted a ranking of the quality of the sets relative to each other, so that the bottom pile can be discarded thus trimming his cart down.  How hard is that to comprehend?

Yes, I agree, I will attempt to follow these guidelines you have so wisely offered in the future and keep my big mouth shut, and try really hard to not indulge in anything that might be construed as a fortepiano rant.

That would be a good start, and that is the least that you could do!

[Franco]

Well, you can forget about me expressing preference for the fortepiano - ain't gonna happen.  I find it a curious instrument and will occasionally indulge in a recording with that instrument just for something different, but in no way do I find it preferable to the piano. 

And if someone is wandering down that path might give them a friendly heads up.

Just sayin'.

[DavidW]

Well, you can forget about me expressing preference for the fortepiano 

I would never expect that!  And I did not ask for you to reverse your taste.

[Gurn Blanston]

LOL

You fortepiano aficionadi are funny.   I have two complete sets of the Haydn keyboard works and prefer John McCabe to Richard Brautigam, primarily because I prefer the sound of a concert grand piano to a spinet that needs to be tuned.

I will probably end up getting Immerseel's Beethoven set because I really like the sound of his band in the Mozart PC - but the Beethoven symphonies have the added advantage of not containing a fortepiano part.

Well, surprisingly enough, I have McCabe's complete set too. Other than the shitty sounding grand piano it is pretty good, although rather lifeless compared to Brautigam. How you can imagine that Brautigam's piano sounds like a harpsichord (that's what a spinet is, BTW) is beyond me. Is your hearing apparatus so twisted by prejudice that you can't even use it anymore? I suspect that's the case. Anyway, whenever I run across people who pass judgment totally based on their preconceptions, I stop reading their posts, because I know they won't contain anything on which I can form a reasonable opinion.

[Franco]

Of course, you can ignore my posts if you wish, but just a few points. 

Maybe historically you are right about what the word has meant in the past, but in my experience a spinet is not a harpsichord, but a small piano.   I do not ever try and pass jugdments based on preconceptions, I have several recordings featuring the fortepiano, both the Brautigam and Immerseel sets as well as others, and while they are a nice alternative, they do not ultimately please my hearing apparatus (which is in good working order, I know, because I just had it tested) as much as the same works performed on piano.

[jlaurson]

Maybe historically you are right about what the word has meant in the past, but in my experience a spinet is not a harpsichord, but a small piano. 

1. ) Experiences differ, and "spinet" has been used to describe a variety of instruments (and there were "spinet-pianos" once), but generally it's considered an instrument that's right between a clavichord and a harpsichord.

2.) For forte-piano joy, Franco, try one of Brautigam's Beethoven Sonatas. Sure they're different than when played on a Steinway D9, but boy are they terrific. None of that clangy feel. Or check Rene Jacobs' Figaro and hear how the fortepiano makes a astounding (positive) difference in the overture.

3.) Can we leave this side-show of the discussion behind? We've long stopped being useful to Brian. He'll have gotten the advice he needed... including the two Dvorak collections recommended by everyone... and will have been able to use (or not) the various opinions about Brautigam, Immerseel et al. to inform his own choices. In that process, we've all been useful... until we started bickering, that is. 

[DavidW]

3.) Can we leave this side-show of the discussion behind? We've long stopped being useful to Brian. He'll have gotten the advice he needed... including the two Dvorak collections recommended by everyone... and will have been able to use (or not) the various opinions about Brautigam, Immerseel et al. to inform his own choices. In that process, we've all been useful... until we started bickering, that is. 

I guess I can agree with that and leave it be.

[PerfectWagnerite]

 And it really, really does not matter that he has 3 HIP cycles already, because Immerseel is pretty different in interpretation.  If there is one thing that any serious HIPster knows by now is that there is no unified style in period performances.  Now back to Harnoncourt: I listened to Immerseel and Harnoncourt's cycles back to back and I preferred Immerseel.  I'm not alone in that preference either.  Harnoncourt is good but he's not as definitive as others around would suggest.

I don't know how Harnoncourt got thrown in there with Immerseel. Harnoncourt's cycle with the Chamber Orchestra is Europe is on modern instruments and is interesting and unique in its own way. In fact if I am allowed 2 or 3 Beethoven cycles I would probably choose Harnoncourt.

And Brian, if you have $150 floating around I would rather spend it taking a few girls out to a nice dinner than spend it on such mindless things.

[Franco]

For forte-piano joy, Franco, try one of Brautigam's Beethoven Sonatas. Sure they're different than when played on a Steinway D9, but boy are they terrific. None of that clangy feel. Or check Rene Jacobs' Figaro and hear how the fortepiano makes a astounding (positive) difference in the overture.

I do like the Jacobs' Mozart, and may very well follow one of Gurn's suggestions about a series of Haydn Trio recordings that use harpsichord in the early ones and fortepiano in the later ones.  Brautigam's Beethoven may be another.

Interesting about spinet - I can't help but think of a living room with the short piano in the corner covered with figurines.  I guess I am old enough to remember those instruments, and did not know they had faded from existence.

[Gurn Blanston]

Interesting about spinet - I can't help but think of a living room with the short piano in the corner covered with figurines.  I guess I am old enough to remember those instruments, and did not know they had faded from existence.

They were called "spinet" because they used a little spine, like a quill, to pluck the strings (as a harpsichord would). The spinet piano was a Brit invention, and was made to be compact enough that you could take it home to your small parlour. I've never seen one in the US; here it was "upright" pianos in the same setting. We had one, both sets of my grandparents had one, most of their friends had one. All essentially the same instrument. The good old days. Wish I had one today.

[Franco]

What I talk about when I talk about spinets:

[Wanderer]

I disagree, Harnoncourt is not "far better" he's not even better.  And it really, really does not matter that he has 3 HIP cycles already, because Immerseel is pretty different in interpretation.  If there is one thing that any serious HIPster knows by now is that there is no unified style in period performances.  Now back to Harnoncourt: I listened to Immerseel and Harnoncourt's cycles back to back and I preferred Immerseel.  I'm not alone in that preference either.  Harnoncourt is good but he's not as definitive as others around would suggest.

Your view is of course respected, but allow me to strongly disagree. I think Harnoncourt is far more essential than Immerseel, and that irrespective of performance style. I don't consider one-sidedness a virtue when it comes to performances, as the use of terms like "HIPster", "fan of X" etc. sometimes reveal. I  judge every performance on its own terms and certainly not  according to its HIP status. That said, I don't think that Immerseel would reveal anything radically different or better than what Brian already has, for which reason I advised him to keep that particular set on hold until his budget allows more spending; Harnoncourt on the other hand will certainly prove far more revealing should he choose to invest in yet one more Beethoven cycle.  Be that as it may, I must repeat that on a limited budget one needn't duplicate indiscriminately; in this particular situation, a Beethoven violin sonatas set is far more preferable than another symphony cycle.

Besides, Brian wanted advise on slimming his cart, and all you and the other posters (well I guess not Gurn) have done is criticize his choices and his taste.  Between you, Jens, Franco and Florestan you would empty his cart and fill it with completely different recordings.  But he's not you, he will not share your taste that precisely, and that's not what he asked for.

Allow me to disagree on that one, too. Offering alternative choices according to one's discretion is an essential and most valuable part of opinion-giving. That said, for any further clarification on my suggestions I'd rather listen to Brian's opinion to whom I responded in the first place;  this  interjection of yours may express your own views and general preferences but in relation to the original question at hand is neither here nor there.

[Wanderer]

Can we leave this side-show of the discussion behind? We've long stopped being useful to Brian. He'll have gotten the advice he needed... including the two Dvorak collections recommended by everyone... and will have been able to use (or not) the various opinions about Brautigam, Immerseel et al. to inform his own choices. In that process, we've all been useful... until we started bickering, that is. 

Oh, yes.  

[Gurn Blanston]

What I talk about when I talk about spinets:

What I talk about when I talk about spinets:



And a very interesting page to go along with it:

http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/Keyboards/HawardSpinet/HawardSpinet.html

[Franco]

I am convinced your spinet is vastly preferable to the one I came to know and loathe.

[DavidW]

I  judge every performance on its own terms and certainly not  according to its HIP status.

Oh yes of course.  That is why you think that Brian shouldn't bother with Immerseel because he already has HIP cycles.  Hello, that is a judgment based on HIP status!  Duh!  

That said, I don't think that Immerseel would reveal anything radically different or better than what Brian already has,

Do you have lead ears?  Immerseel is completely different from the ones that he has!  Or maybe you haven't actually heard Immerseel?

[Gurn Blanston]

I am convinced your spinet is vastly preferable to the one I came to know and loathe.

I understand that the "short pianos" were a real bitch to play well because the keys were extra short to accommodate the mechanism. Also that even when you played it perfectly, it didn't sound too good because the strings were short so they didn't have a good tone. Pity really, but one hell of a lot better than not having a piano at all. Being able to have a piano in the home is one of the great starters for a lifelong interest in music.

Well, OK, we've derailed this enough, let's get back to the disagreements on what to buy...

[Wanderer]

Immerseel is completely different from the ones that he has!

You already said that. Should I repeat that I disagree, will you quote me again and repeat the above? 

Nice job keeping your calm, by the way.