The sort of music you dislike

[starrynight]

There are a few great symphonies which suffer from this structural imbalance: the first two mvts. are so overwhelming that they overshadow the next two (which are good in their own right). The Eroica is one such; Bruckner 7 and Shostakovich 10 are two others.

Bruckner 7 is another one I've felt like that about too.      The first movement is just inspired and the slow movement is obviously weighty with a strong theme.

And with Beethoven when he did go for the epic piece balance sometimes I still feel he is perhaps overplaying things a bit unnecessarily.  Though how you resolve that apocalyptic first movement in the 9th into a Beethovenian triumph I just don't know.  It just seemed easier to do in the 5th.  My favourite Beethoven symphony is the 6th, quite a personal piece in a way and not trying to speak for the whole world like the 9th seems to try by the end. 

[Renfield]

I'll say it again: interesting. For me, Bruckner's movements make no sense outside the context of the symphony they form a part of; so what you're saying sounds akin to claiming you like the bit in the Odyssey about the fall of Troy.

(Which says more about how much - and what - I invest in Romantic symphonies as dramatic entities, than anything else.)

[starrynight]

All symphonies are a drama of a kind I suppose.  The whole classical period brought in the idea of sonata form, the themes in the exposition (maybe with some contrasting character), then they interact in some ways in the development and then find some kind of change or resolution in the recapitulation.  And a piece overall would reflect this drama as well.

[Renfield]

All symphonies are a drama of a kind I suppose.  The whole classical period brought in the idea of sonata form, the themes in the exposition (maybe with some contrasting character), then they interact in some ways in the development and then find some kind of change or resolution in the recapitulation.  And a piece overall would reflect this drama as well.

Indeed. I had originally written "in symphonies as dramatic entities", without specifying, but I didn't want to open that particular can of worms. Romantic symphonies are, at least, more 'obviously' dramatic narratives.

[Ten thumbs]

Sometimes the imbalance is due to the conductor not the composer. First movements are made too portentous and slow movements are played too slow. On the other hand, where the initial balance is dubious, should a performance try and correct this?

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Sometimes the imbalance is due to the conductor not the composer. First movements are made too portentous and slow movements are played too slow. On the other hand, where the initial balance is dubious, should a performance try and correct this?

Indeed. One reason I value Klemperer's recording of the Bruckner 7th is because he gives more weight to the finale and makes it sound like more than a dutiful afterthought. (In a lot of Bruckner symphonies I sort of hear the composer thinking, "Well, the textbook says 4 movements to a symphony, so I suppose I have to put another movement there.")

Mahler 9 is often said to be another unbalanced symphony, with so much weight in the first movement. Don't know if I agree with that assessment, but the trend over the last several decades seems to be towards slowing down the finale and giving it more weight in the process.

[Renfield]

Mahler 9 is often said to be another unbalanced symphony, with so much weight in the first movement. Don't know if I agree with that assessment, but the trend over the last several decades seems to be towards slowing down the finale and giving it more weight in the process.

To given an example of how I view these symphonies, that assessment sounds to me exactly absurd as that for the Bruckner 7th!

The revisiting the Bruckner does, and the departing that Mahler does, would both be impossible taking the symphonies as 4-part suites.


P.S.: If you want extra gravitas in the B7, you might try the late Karajan, with the Vienna Philharmonic.

[starrynight]

Romantic symphonies are, at least, more 'obviously' dramatic narratives.

In your opinion.  There are program works before the romantic period too.  And even in a generalised sense in, for example, Mozart's symphonies (and piano concertos) there might be a sense of opera buffa at times.  There was eventually perhaps a greater emphasis on programmatic elements in the romantic period, but it's roots seem to have been earlier.

[Renfield]

In your opinion.  There are program works before the romantic period too.  And even in a generalised sense in, for example, Mozart's symphonies (and piano concertos) there might be a sense of opera buffa at times.  There was eventually perhaps a greater emphasis on programmatic elements in the romantic period, but it's roots seem to have been earlier.

No, no, you misunderstand me. They are more obviously programmatic by consensus.

Myself, I consider any structure whatsoever that develops in time 'narrative-attributable', but let's not get into this.

[Grazioso]

Indeed. I had originally written "in symphonies as dramatic entities", without specifying, but I didn't want to open that particular can of worms. Romantic symphonies are, at least, more 'obviously' dramatic narratives.

As a general rule that may well be true--and I certainly enjoy the way Romantic symphonies can tell an emotional "story"--but if that's true of Bruckner, then his narratives need better editing to excise the dutifully formulaic bits and rewrite the endings that provide not a concise dramatic highpoint and satisfyingly logical closure, but rather seem to flounder or fizzle or just drag on too long. I'm reminded of the film of The Return of the King, with its four or five endings in a row They tie up the the threads, but in terms of pacing and drama it all seems anti-climactic to the point of silliness.

Then again, to my ears, Bruckner is a Romantic of a very special stripe. His symphonies are an odd, uneasy meeting of personal Romanticism of the usual type with a sort of lofty, remote abstraction that has left mundane cares well behind. What happens when you mix Mahler and Bach? 

[Renfield]

As a general rule that may well be true--and I certainly enjoy the way Romantic symphonies can tell an emotional "story"--but if that's true of Bruckner, then his narratives need better editing to excise the dutifully formulaic bits and rewrite the endings that provide not a concise dramatic highpoint and satisfyingly logical closure, but rather seem to flounder or fizzle or just drag on too long. I'm reminded of the film of The Return of the King, with its four or five endings in a row

That's an apt example - only some of us like these endings!


To elaborate a little, Bruckner's symphonies, especially the late ones, do indeed end more than once, in a way.

But the 'trick' to them, indeed to the whole of his output IMO, is their sustained, cumulative intensity. Every new 'ending' adds to the previous one, forming part of the same line of symphonic argument, the same narrative from another angle.

So when the 'final ending' comes, and I'm thinking particularly of the 8th here, it is The End in a way more classically (micro-)proportioned symphonies just can't allow - they don't have the requisite musical real estate for such a climax of climaxes (literally speaking).


And, touching on your other point, about the uneasy mix of remoteness and intimacy in Bruckner, that is one of the single greatest features of his music for me! The musical expression of one aspiring to paradise, but trapped in his own shell of mortal imperfection.

That's how I imagine Bruckner's compositional point of view. And to me, it chimes perfectly with the Romantic era, in a more meditative manner than other composers' more exclusively Dionysian 'frustrated desire' kind of splurging.


That's also why I'm even having this discussion to begin with, as I am opposed to browbeating others into acquiring a taste; but when a large dimension of his work is ignored, whether the lofty or the sordid, I feel Anton is being somewhat cheated of his chance to shine!

[Sergeant Rock]

As a general rule that may well be true--and I certainly enjoy the way Romantic symphonies can tell an emotional "story"--but if that's true of Bruckner, then his narratives need better editing to excise the dutifully formulaic bits and rewrite the endings that provide not a concise dramatic highpoint and satisfyingly logical closure, but rather seem to flounder or fizzle or just drag on too long.

Somewhere recently in this forum I stated (not argued) my belief that Bruckner's symphonies are not dramatic stories in the Romantic sense but meditative works. Anyone looking for drama in Bruckner will probably be disappointed. Criticizing him for lack of drama is missing the point of the music entirely. What he does provide, though, is "satisfyingly logical closure"--at least from the Fifth onward. (He was still struggling to find his way in the earlier symphonies, although I find the awkwardness of those Finales endearing, and exciting, too.) They satisfy both logically and emotionally...at least I think so. Composer Robert Simpson thought so too and argued Bruckner's case to my satisfaction in his book The Essence of Bruckner.

Then again, to my ears, Bruckner is a Romantic of a very special stripe. His symphonies are an odd, uneasy meeting of personal Romanticism of the usual type with a sort of lofty, remote abstraction that has left mundane cares well behind. What happens when you mix Mahler and Bach? 

I don't disagree with that although I might say his music is a mixture of Wagner, Schubert and 16th century polyphony.

Sarge

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Somewhere recently in this forum I stated (not argued) my belief that Bruckner's symphonies are not dramatic stories in the Romantic sense but meditative works.

I've thought so too. Sometimes I view the symphonies as "masses without voices." Getting to know the masses inclined me further toward this view - there are many links (even sharing of themes and motifs) between the masses and the symphonies.

[Renfield]

Something perhaps worth noting is that meditations and dramatic entities need not necessarily be mutually exclusive.


A meditation that progresses in such and such a manner, over a space of time, is much like an argument. And, in so far as we invest in it emotionally, an argument can be dramatic through our involvement in its progress.

For example: the teetering in the brink of the tonal/existential abyss at the climax of the Bruckner 9th's Adagio. 'Survival' from that is not guaranteed, until the next phrase comes, bringing peace (or solace, or musical harmony, or what have you).

[Sergeant Rock]

Something perhaps worth noting is that meditations and dramatic entities need not necessarily be mutually exclusive....For example: the teetering in the brink of the tonal/existential abyss at the climax of the Bruckner 9th's Adagio.

The Ninth can be one of the exceptions. I think it is a dramatic symphony, too (with obvious allusions to that other D minor symphony....the famous one). The drama is emphasized by some conductors (Jochum). Norrington's way with the Sixth is essentially dramatic (he doesn't have time, or leave time for meditation  ) and I love what Dohnányi and Welser-Möst do dramatically with the Fifth. In general, though, I stand by my characterization of Bruckner.

Sarge

[jowcol]

There are a few great symphonies which suffer from this structural imbalance: the first two mvts. are so overwhelming that they overshadow the next two (which are good in their own right). The Eroica is one such; Bruckner 7 and Shostakovich 10 are two others.

I'll confess that I usually skip the last movement of Shostakovich's 10th.  I love the first three, but the end seems like a happiness that hasn't been earned.  I don't mind the third movement, though.

[Renfield]

The Ninth can be one of the exceptions. I think it is a dramatic symphony, too (with obvious allusions to that other D minor symphony....the famous one). The drama is emphasized by some conductors (Jochum). Norrington's way with the Sixth is essentially dramatic (he doesn't have time, or leave time for meditation  ) and I love what Dohnányi and Welser-Möst do dramatically with the Fifth. In general, though, I stand by my characterization of Bruckner.

Sarge

Oh, I wasn't intending my comment in opposition of your characterisation. I just think a meditation can always (?) be internalised dramatically.

[Teresa]

I like the first and last movements of most symphonies the best, the inner movements I consider a trip to the finale.  Without getting to the finale there is no ending, no final resolution of the piece. 

Also I feel somewhat cheated if the symphony ends without a climatic big bang!  However the second movement "scherzo" of Bruckner's 9th is my favorite of this unfinished symphony without an ending.  The scherzo with it's POUNDING rhythm is one of the most exciting moments in classical music with maximum goosebumps.  Bruckner didn't live long enough to finish the fourth movement, there are couple of versions of it completed by others but I have yet to hear them so for now I prefer the second movement as a stand alone excerpt until I have the 9th finished, at that time the adagio may make more sense, as it stands now it goes nowhere.  Sort of like a musical tease, on the way to a climax that never comes.

[Fëanor]

Wow, this post is mostly a formulaic exercise, and a clumsy attempt to sound important or profound, complete with huffing and puffing signifying nothing, or at least very little.  What exquisite irony, you did it on purpose, I presume?

What you have said is, if I may simplify a bit, "I don't like music I don't like."   

No, I for one will not restrict myself to just saying, "I don't like the music".  One is entitled to state one's impressions of the music. I pretty much share starrynight's impression of late Romanitic music and, like James, I prefer the more concise idiom.

Personally I am a simple listener, not a person of any sort of music training; perhaps that makes a difference.  But if you expect me to sit at the back of the room, shut up, and keep my impressions to myself, you will be disappointed.

[starrynight]

I wasn't just criticising some late romantic music though, as I said there could be weaker music in other periods as well.