Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau

[Verena]

I've never been one of those who findthe great FD "self-concious,unspontaneous and hammy". How unfair to such a great artist!
  He was not only a great lieder singer, but wonderful in opera. Unfortunately,I never got to see him on stage, but his
recorded portrayals of such characters as Wozzeck, Don Giovanni, Mathis der Maler, Hans Sachs, Doktor Faust, Mandryka in Arabella, Lear in Reimann's Lear, and many other roles are truly compelling.
  He really could act with his voice,and he is said to have been a great actor onstage in opera and a riveting stage presence.

Why should this be unfair? No one denies DFDs importance, his contribution to our knowledge/appreciation of formerly almost unknown repertoire, his outstanding intelligence, etc. He may indeed be "great" in some sense (this is really a vague term), but still there are quite a few people who do not like his style - at least in some repertoire. And as far as I (as a non-native speaker) understand the word, the description of his style as "hammy" is absolutely to the point in many cases - though I guess the word has negative associations, so a neutral term might be better. Apart from this, DFD is not "great" in my book because he lacks a truly outstanding voice - though many may disagree or may find this rather unimportant. And in fact, I do not like him at all in opera, apart from Strauss.

[Superhorn]

   Whether Fischer-Dieskau had a "great" voice is irrelevant as far a sI am concerned. In terms of pure voice,other baritones and singers have had more impressive purely vocal endowments.
But wht makes DFD so great is what he did with his voice.
  Take Robert Merrill for example. Purely in terms of voice, Merrill had the more impressive instrument;it was certainly a more refulgent baritone voice.
But the American never even came remotely close to being as penetrating interpreter of operatic roles. Merrill never created the kind of detailed,specific characters which FD could.
   A great natural instrument and flawless techniqe alone do not guarantee anything; there has to a genuine interpretive imagination and vision to achieve artistic greatness. FD had this in spades.

[Verena]

Whether Fischer-Dieskau had a "great" voice is irrelevant as far a sI am concerned. In terms of pure voice,other baritones and singers have had more impressive purely vocal endowments.
But wht makes DFD so great is what he did with his voice.
  Take Robert Merrill for example. Purely in terms of voice, Merrill had the more impressive instrument;it was certainly a more refulgent baritone voice.
But the American never even came remotely close to being as penetrating interpreter of operatic roles. Merrill never created the kind of detailed,specific characters which FD could.
   A great natural instrument and flawless techniqe alone do not guarantee anything; there has to a genuine interpretive imagination and vision to achieve artistic greatness. FD had this in spades.

Merrill wouldn't be my ideal baritone either; certainly he wasn't a great interpreter. Perhaps one can locate Merrill at one end of the singing-interpreting continuum, and DFD at the other end - this being a simplification, of course. I prefer an interpreter in the middle of that continuum. I don't like singers who lay out the meaning of a text with a trowel (if that's the phrase) - and thus turn an aria or song into a scholarly exercise in text exergesis. This is what DFD often does in my view and this is what I often find downright annoying. But neither do I like an interpreter who is completely oblivious to what the text means. My ideal (as far as song is concerned) is someone like the young Gérard Souzay (highly intelligent and extremely attractive timbre).

[Mandryka]

    But the American never even came remotely close to being as penetrating interpreter of operatic roles. Merrill never created the kind of detailed,specific characters which FD could.
 

What do you think of him in songs?

[Mandryka]

I just played Nacht und Traeume - first Fischer Dieskau (in the EMI Schubert Lieder on Record boxes) and then Karl Erb.

FiDi's performance is very nuanced and very expressive. You are constantly aware of the way he changes timbre, stresses consonants, phrases. All the choices are deliberate. All is deeply felt, from the heart. I certainly don't think that he sounds phoney or uninvolved.

But at the end of the day his technique is too obtrusive, his style too unspontaneous. This is a really disappointing performance.

Erb is equally deeply felt. But how much more natural Erb sounds (for all his strange timbre.) How much more simple, honest, straightforward.

I prefer Erb.

[cosmicj]

Any responses to the later album of Schumann Dichterliebe and Liederkries Op. 39 with Brendel?  I love it and find it very powerful.

Interesting thread, as I too thought of DFD as a consensus great. 

[Franco]

I have DFD singing pretty much all the lieder of Schubert, Brahms and Wolf and have no complaints.

[Mandryka]

  He really could act with his voice

Maybe.

I think he is very very good in songs which require acting -- like Der Erlkönig and Der Zwerg.

But he sometimes acts when the song doesn't need funny voices or melodrama: even when the song needs something simpler and deeper. Example: Nacht und Traeume.

Now some people will think that's all to the good. I can imagine that if you like Laurence Olivier in Hamlet or Richard 3 you will think FiDi's Schubert is fantastic.

But if you prefer a less stagey, more natural, style, then FiDi doesn't always suit.

[mjwal]

Mandryka - a fellow Erb fan! I know that FiDi N&T, it is not so bad, but not it either. The young Souzay comes close to perfection in this very difficult song (which may have been Beckett's favourite - there's a wonderful wordless late play based on it which I saw on German TV years ago, very moving.) Another Erb recording to play and measure other performances by is "Nachtstück" (a radio recording I have on LP, haven't seen it on CD) - it immediately sends the much-touted Fritz Wunderlich to the trash bin. I don't know FiDi's version of this but I cannot imagine it being any great shakes. Prégardien is pretty good, too - I think of him as the modern intellectual's Erb, but lacking the transcendent apocalyptic quality.
By the way, I like Olivier in Shakespeare but do not think FiDi is fantastic, though he is great fun on video with Richter. But I wouldn't choose to listen to Olivier - only to see & hear him.

[ccar]

I don't like singers who lay out the meaning of a text with a trowel (if that's the phrase) - and thus turn an aria or song into a scholarly exercise in text exergesis. This is what DFD often does in my view and this is what I often find downright annoying.

FiDi's performance is very nuanced and very expressive. You are constantly aware of the way he changes timbre, stresses consonants, phrases. All the choices are deliberate. All is deeply felt, from the heart. I certainly don't think that he sounds phoney or uninvolved.

But at the end of the day his technique is too obtrusive, his style too unspontaneous. This is a really disappointing performance.

I must say that those of us who are sensible to the miniature poetic art of the lieder and the melodies are very fortunate to have so many interpreters who gave, and still give, their talent to these small but precious gems. And it was never easy, for any singer in any time, to expose himself to the intensity and nakedness of this unique music form. Those who had the courage to do it were usually the very fine and most sensible artists.
     
I already expressed before my recognition and respect to DFD as one of the major singers of our time. But I also confessed my personal (un)sensibility to what I may resume as his overemphatic   articulation or over characterization, particularly in his mature artistic years. Obviously, this is not a "personal" criticism to DFD and I always feel it may sound as a pedantic or arrogant attitude. Nevertheless, it is a sincere one. And my personal preference for a less "oversophisticated" interpretation does not apply only to DFD but to many other musical interpreters (or even other artistic expressions). 
         
In this more global sense I very much agree with the ideas brilliantly expressed in the famous essay of Roland Barthes "Le grain de la voix" (Seuil 1972). For me it is one of the most penetrating analyses on singing and interpretation.  RB stresses the importance of the "grain" as one of the most interesting and distinctive elements of the voice, of the singing character and even of all musical or artistic interpretation. Barthes's "grain" is not only the color of the voice but the peculiar way each singer translates his inner self through the "mixing" of the music with the word. Barthes uses DFD "interpretation style" as a model and he compares it to Charles Panzéra, as two contrasting examples.

To illustrate what I also feel is my "sensibility objection" to DFD's singing "style", I will use some illustrating excerpts from RB's "Le grain de la voix" (please forgive me for my poor English translation). 



"... The 'grain' of the voice is not, or not only, the timbre. It means the friction between the music and the other element – the language (not the meaning). ... The 'grain' is the body's individual expression through the singing voice. ... Some artists have a 'grain' that others, however famous, may have not.

... As a singer FD is an absolutely faultless artist. Everything in the structure (semantic and lyrical) is respected. However nothing seduces us, nothing carries us to the delight. It is like an over-expressive art – the wording is dramatic and his breathing stops, oppressions and releases act like passion earthquakes. ... With FD I believe I only listen to his lungs, never his tongue, the glottis, the teeth, the mouth or the nose. On the contrary, all the art of Panzéra is in the letters and not in the breath – we listen to his phrasing and not to his breathing. ...

... FD is an almost absolute King of the record of singing. He recorded everything. If you love Schubert and you don't love FD, Schubert is forbidden to you – an example of the positive censorship that without any criticism whatsoever has dominated the mass culture. Perhaps his art – expressive, dramatic, emotionally transparent, carried by a voice without 'grain', without significant weight, responds well to the needs of the "culture moyenne"; a culture brought by the generalization of listeners and the disappearance of the 'amateur' performers. ... "

 

[Martin Lind]

I have bought a pretty cheap box of recordings Fischer Dieskau recently. It's a Membran box and I don't know weather it is accessable in English countries ( at least at this price). These are old recordings from the 50es but some are very enjoyable.

I mean this box:



10 CDs, well filled for a price of 12 Euros. I didn't enjoy much the opera arias, but for example his Winterreise ( the first one to be recorded). The sound is not glorious but the singing of the very young Fischer Dieskau appears to me less "obtrusevely characterized" than some of his later recordings. Winterreise, Die schöne Müllerin and other Schubert songs are included, as is Schumann, Brahms, Wolf and others. I cannot claim to have heard everything but at this price the box was a steal - although old recordings.

Regards
Martin

[cosmicj]

I must say that I don't have the reaction to DFD of some of the other posters.  To me, the typical lieder singing problem is of too little expressivity, so if DFD swings the other way, it's an acceptable antidote.

The sound is not glorious but the singing of the very young Fischer Dieskau appears to me less "obtrusevely characterized" than some of his later recordings. Winterreise, Die schöne Müllerin and other Schubert songs are included, as is Schumann, Brahms, Wolff and others. I cannot claim to have heard everything but at this price the box was a steal - although old recordings.

Martin - I have a CD of DFD doing Schumann lieder, including the Op. 35 Kerner Lieder, recorded in the mid 50s with Gunther Weissenborn which I just love, despite its low-budget provenance.  Very expressive but a little less emphatic than the later recordings.  Includes a terrific performance of "Talismane" from the Op. 25 set.  I also have Ian Bostridge (I am big fan of IB) doing the same song on the Hyperion set and DFD's accentuated expressivity makes for a much richer, more impressive and imposing interpretation of a great song.   

[cosmicj]

ccar - Thanks for the post.  I think Barthes' description of "grain" is too imprecise to have any meaning for me and don't like the way he tries to universalize his own reaction to DFD by switching to "us" (However nothing seduces us, nothing carries us to the delight.).  I have been delighted and moved by DFD's singing.  It sounds like French grousing about those Krauts.    

I take it that you are strongly recommending the Panzera recording?

[Franco]

I forgot, I also have DFD singing all of Schumann lieder and love it.

[Mandryka]

Martin - I have a CD of DFD doing Schumann lieder, including the Op. 35 Kerner Lieder, recorded in the mid 50s with Gunther Weissenborn which I just love, despite its low-budget provenance.  Very expressive but a little less emphatic than the later recordings. .   

Yes, you've put your finger on the heart of the matter.

The problem isn't expression -- like you, I think that's a good thing.

The problem is that he is all too often over emphatic. I don't know what word corresponds to Ccars translation "over expresive", but I take it that this is part of Barthe's meaning.

Another part of Barthe's meaning seems to be that with DFD you are too conscious of his technique -- his breathing etc. You're to often aware that here is a good singer skillfully using techniques to entertain and alure.

With greater song singers -- Aksel Schiotz for example, or Karl Erb, or Peter Pears, or Lotte Lehmann or Heinrich Schlusnus or indeed Gérard Souzay,  it's the words, the poem, the melody which moves you. Not the voice.

[Mandryka]

Mandryka - a fellow Erb fan! I know that FiDi N&T, it is not so bad, but not it either. The young Souzay comes close to perfection in this very difficult song (which may have been Beckett's favourite - there's a wonderful wordless late play based on it which I saw on German TV years ago, very moving.) Another Erb recording to play and measure other performances by is "Nachtstück" (a radio recording I have on LP, haven't seen it on CD) - it immediately sends the much-touted Fritz Wunderlich to the trash bin. I don't know FiDi's version of this but I cannot imagine it being any great shakes. Prégardien is pretty good, too - I think of him as the modern intellectual's Erb, but lacking the transcendent apocalyptic quality.
By the way, I like Olivier in Shakespeare but do not think FiDi is fantastic, though he is great fun on video with Richter. But I wouldn't choose to listen to Olivier - only to see & hear him.

Erb's Nachtstück-- once heard, never forgotten. Like his Littanei and Nun wandre Maria.

He has tremendous purity, even if the voice is a bit unsteady.

And thanks for reminding of Souzays N&T. Exquisite timbre. Warm and mellow. Intense. Very good.

[knight66]

How have I managed to miss this thread? Interesting to read right through it though, thanks folks.

I tend to prefer his earlier recordings and have suggested elsewhere that his musicmaking inspires more admiration than affection.

Here is an example of a recording from 1952.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-aEWM9Xvgg

I think this is Bach singing of the very highest quality. He does not break the line up and even taking a breath is a dramatic gesture. The voice itself is at its most beautiful. I don't know of any other performance of this aria that I would put along side it. I think there is an ideal balance between expressiveness and integration of words and music, with no superfluous gestures.

I enjoy a number of the recordings, Mahler songs included also DLvDE, many of which have been held up as 'best of'...also his Hans Sachs in Meistersingers. But equally, I have been left cold if not alienated during some performances; where the detail draws attention to itself. I also feel that he was basically unsuited to Italian Opera, the best I know of is his Posa in Don Carlos, but more usually, it somehow sounds alien, for example his Macbeth. Simply not at all an Italianate sound or idiomatic relish for the language.

BTW: a page or so back there was mention of a Mahler Wunderhorn recording. That was with Schwartzkopf and Szell and I think it is excellent. If it is thought that he adopts a hectoring approach here and there, then compare with the partner to Janet Baker on the Wyn Morris version, Geraint Evans, who barks gruffly through several songs and makes DFD sound silken by comparison.

Now, try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_6KPYEFe7k&feature=PlayList&p=9983DAB86E655237&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=36

A highly dramatic song by Wolf.....masterful or overdone? What do folk think.

Mike

[matti]

How have I managed to miss this thread?

Being abroad?

I can see why you might think this is overdone - I'm not particularly fond of the song even. On the other hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sFV8phOT6g&feature=PlayList&p=9983DAB86E655237&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRox_cBwmh4&feature=PlayList&p=9983DAB86E655237&playnext_from=PL&index=34&playnext=2

Not too bad IMO...

[knight66]

Both of those are beautiful performances and that Wolf song is my favourite. As to the performance of Der Feuerreiter, from memory, the markings encourage an extreme approach. I wonder if folk do feel it to be too operatic.

Here is Gura, not one bit less dramatic or wild, if anything rather more in danger of getting out of control at certain points. I prefer Gura to DFD in the second half of the song, more trance-like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmzErAgHMOU

And Fassbaender, predictably hyper-expressive and often a partner to DFD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9AS0cft0xo&feature=related

Mike

[Mandryka]

In this more global sense I very much agree with the ideas brilliantly expressed in the famous essay of Roland Barthes "Le grain de la voix" (Seuil 1972).

"... The 'grain' of the voice is not, or not only, the timbre. . . . we listen to his phrasing and not to his breathing. ...... FD is an almost absolute King of the record of singing. . . . a culture brought by the generalization of listeners and the disappearance of the 'amateur' performers. ... "

I must be going blind, but I just can't see the passage you translated (I can see a discussion of Panzéra in the interview "Les Fantômes de l'Opéra")

I'm going to go crazy if I don't find it – which page is it on?