The Historically Informed Performances (HIP) debate

[Gurn Blanston]

Sort of like the discussions about those dratted modern composers.

Yeah, like that. Don't'cha just hate that music?     

[Marc]

This has to be the most boring debate ever. 

But as to the topic, I do love hearing the music of Haydn and those previous to him on 'period' instruments.

Especially if played by babes.    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWHHyEuwRo4

YEAH!

Let's discuss babes!



Back to topic (in a way):
I was 'lucky' to get to know HIP and non-HIP without knowing what HIP or non-HIP was.
Listening to the radio, to Bach vocal works f.i., with Leonhardt, Harnoncourt or Karl Richter and Fritz Werner.
And, after that, listening to f.i. Corelli, Vivaldi, Haydn and Mozart concertos, the HIPPY ones, in general, gave me more thrills and enjoyment.
I just made personal choices .... which meant that, whilst developing my own taste, in most cases concerning early 19th century music or older, I preferred HIP (or smaller non-HIP-ensembles) to the larger non-HIP performances. More prominent phrasing and articulation .... et cetera.

(I do prefer Werner to Richter, btw. )

[False_Dmitry]

Especially if played by babes. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWHHyEuwRo4

Chiara Massini plays Bach's Prelude from the Cello Suite BWV 1008 on the harpsichord

I presume you'd intended a cello suite, errrr, played on the harpsichord (!), but with pictures of a cellist, as a deep kind of irony? 

[Philoctetes]

Chiara Massini plays Bach's Prelude from the Cello Suite BWV 1008 on the harpsichord

I presume you'd intended a cello suite, errrr, played on the harpsichord (!), but with pictures of a cellist, as a deep kind of irony? 

Well Chiara is a harpsichordist. Most of her videos are her playing that. Although, she is learning to play that piece of the Cello as well.

But you got the gist. 

[jlaurson]

I like a little of everything but spend a lot of time with orchestral and vocal music...

It is not so much the period instruments, boy sopranos, countertenors, etc that give me trouble (I actually find their sounds refreshing at times), it is the performances themselves that have been a little lacking.

Baby steps. Here's one of my favorite Bach (Bach-anything, never mind cantatas) discs that I also happen to think is a very good introduction the the HIP-curious/cautious.  http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/weinen-klagenherreweghes-new-bach.html

[jlaurson]

here's an interview with C.Schornsheim which touches on issues like 'hearing music differently' if you are a HIP performer...
possibly of interest. (If you are not a fanfare magazine subscriber, it'll eventually appear on WETA.)
http://www.fanfarearchive.com/articles/atop/34_1/3410040.aa_Schornsheim_Nightingale.html

[jochanaan]

Yeah, like that. Don't'cha just hate that music?     

You are an evil and cruel man, Gurn.

[BMW]

Baby steps. Here's one of my favorite Bach (Bach-anything, never mind cantatas) discs that I also happen to think is a very good introduction the the HIP-curious/cautious.  http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/weinen-klagenherreweghes-new-bach.html

Thank you for the recommendation.  I will see if I get a few more and then put an order together.

[False_Dmitry]

Well Chiara is a harpsichordist.

I wouldn't go that far.  She owns a harpsichord, let's say.

[Bulldog]

I wouldn't go that far.  She owns a harpsichord, let's say.

Nah, she is definitely a harpsichordist and a pretty good one.

[BMW]

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2231

I enjoyed this (and the Haydn) article.  Out of curiosity, are there any strong advocates for performing with period instruments but not necessarily adhering strictly to period style?

[jlaurson]

I enjoyed this (and the Haydn) article.  Out of curiosity, are there any strong advocates for performing with period instruments but not necessarily adhering strictly to period style?

I'm not sure if the performers would claim that... though there are certainly constant improvements (or changes, discoveries, etc.) where groups refine their style (or make it more 'radical'), which leaves those who don't adapt 'behind'. In other words, there might be frontier-HIPsters who think that fellow HIPsters are not adhering to the 'proper' style. There might be HIPsters out there who don't think that Koopman is a true HIP disciple, for example. But it's probably best to ignore those musicological disputes. The truth is always in the eating of the pudding...

The other way around is more common: Advocates for period style (to some degrees), but not insisting on period instruments. When performers have properly learned to do that, the results can be very gratifying.

Looking for more recordings: These are some of my favorite harpsichord recordings; I'd be surprised if you didn't find them very enjoyable: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/11/harpsichord-like-rarely-ever.html. I rank the Klavierbuechlein just ahead of the French Suites, the English a little below those... but the re-issue is an unpassable bargain. (also http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html

Since I'm recommending recordings that I think are great, not because they are HIP, but happen to be HIP, I can't pass up mention of the Quatuor Mosaiques and their Haydn. Going through these works, opus number by opus number, and comparing them to most other versions, I'm still and again struck by their beauty of tone, perfection in execution, liveliness (albeit considerably less rambunctious than the Buchbergers, for example).
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/09/dip-your-ears-no-11.html, http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?cat=26. Start with op.33, perhaps.

HIP in the most deliciously subversive way: McCreesh's "The Creation". True to style, he goes all-out with the souped-up Gabrieli Players, to deliver an historically correct anachronism. No.5 in this list: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html

My favorite B-Minor Mass currently is Van Veldhoven... Two Voices to a part, and yet lush and grand in sound, lean in texture. Superb: http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=232

I've talked my mouth frothy about how great the Concerto Italiano Four Seasons are: http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=122

Saul, with Rene Jacobs or McCreesh are splendid Handel! (So much more fun than the "M-Word")
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/07/dip-your-ears-no-1.html
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/12/best-recordings-in-2004.html

Wilms Symphonies with Concerto Koeln (now on Brilliant) are terrific... also one of my favorite recordings out there: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/12/best-recordings-in-2004.html

Enough for a nice little shopping basket? 

[Superhorn]

   If you want to hear snooty HIP fanaticism gone truly insane,go to the very interesting website of the New Queens Hall orchestra in London, an orchestra formed several years ago to give purportedly "authentic" performances of Elgar,Vaughan Williams,Holst,as well as Brahms and Tchaikovsky etc.
  It's truly loony,and I found the comments by the founder and general manager absolutely infuriating. They've already recorded Holst's the Planets, and a Vaughan Williams CD etc and some Wagner excerpts etc.
  This manager makes it sound as though we desperately needed an HIP orchestra for late 19th and early 20th century music, and that modern orchestras are terrible in this repertoire,and they are finally giving audiences a chance to hear the music as it really ought to sound. Sheesh almighty !!!!





                                                                                     

[Bulldog]

   If you want to hear snooty HIP fanaticism gone truly insane,go to the very interesting website of the New Queens Hall orchestra in London, an orchestra formed several years ago to give purportedly "authentic" performances of Elgar,Vaughan Williams,Holst,as well as Brahms and Tchaikovsky etc.
  It's truly loony,and I found the comments by the founder and general manager absolutely infuriating. They've already recorded Holst's the Planets, and a Vaughan Williams CD etc and some Wagner excerpts etc.
  This manager makes it sound as though we desperately needed an HIP orchestra for late 19th and early 20th century music, and that modern orchestras are terrible in this repertoire,and they are finally giving audiences a chance to hear the music as it really ought to sound. Sheesh almighty !!!!





                                                                                    

I didn't find anything fanatical about any feature of the website.  Could you point to the web page that you object to?

[The new erato]

Enough for a nice little shopping basket? 

I have them all .....except for the Veldhoven B Minor. 

[Franco]

   If you want to hear snooty HIP fanaticism gone truly insane,go to the very interesting website of the New Queens Hall orchestra in London, an orchestra formed several years ago to give purportedly "authentic" performances of Elgar,Vaughan Williams,Holst,as well as Brahms and Tchaikovsky etc.

Not having heard them, I cannot comment on whether their sound is demonstrably different than other orchestras, and the blurb does strike me as somewhat puffed in order to generate interest in a crowded field.  But having said that, I'm all for reinvigorating the orchestral playing of Romantic literature and welcome any group dedicated to a fresh approach.

[Philoctetes]

Nah, she is definitely a harpsichordist and a pretty good one.

A damn good one.

[False_Dmitry]

Nah, she is definitely a harpsichordist and a pretty good one.

Playing, errr, cello suites on the harpsichord, right?   Ho-ho-ho, there are lots of "harpsichordists" who can do that...

Let us know when she learns to play with both hands at the same time?

I won't hold my breath!   

[jlaurson]

Playing, errr, cello suites on the harpsichord, right?   Ho-ho-ho, there are lots of "harpsichordists" who can do that...

Let us know when she learns to play with both hands at the same time?

I won't hold my breath!   

All i notice is that except for the very simplest pieces, there is no video of her playing the instrument... only pictures of her sitting at one. Could be coincidence, of course.

[jochanaan]

...This manager makes it sound as though we desperately needed an HIP orchestra for late 19th and early 20th century music, and that modern orchestras are terrible in this repertoire,and they are finally giving audiences a chance to hear the music as it really ought to sound...

Without commenting on the New Queens Hall Orchestra, whose recordings I haven't yet heard, we actually have such an orchestra, and it's one of the most famous in the world:  The Vienna Philharmonic uses instruments whose design hasn't changed in a hundred years, and their style is probably as pure a representation of the Romantic as there is.  Yes, they also play the modern repertoire, and very well--but their instruments are definitely "period."