Mystery Orchestra

[M forever]

Welcome to "Mystery Orchestra"!

Those of you who also frequent the RMCR newsgroup already know and love this. It is a blind listening and reviewing "game" I started a while ago in RMCR, in the wake of all the consternation about "Hattogate". It amused me to no small degree how upset a lot of people were by that, and how hard it was for many to admit that they had been totally fooled. Of course, it was not easy, especially for those who had reviewed both the original recordings and the "Hatto" versions and, almost invariably, found the "Hatto" versions vastly superior.

Oops.

I think we will all admit that our reactions to musical performances and recordings are to a certain degree influenced not just by what we are actually hearing, but also by our expectations and preconceptions about the performers. It has long been shown that the only really at least somewhat "objective" or "unbiased" way to test and review both sound equipment and recordings is blind testing. I have "subjected" myself to a lot of blind tests, and I find them both very fun and instructive. They tell us a lot not only about the object of the test, but also about ourselves, our preconceptions and how our perceptions are influenced by the surrounding information we have - or don't have.

I call this a "game" because it is not a serious "test". Nobody is "tested" and "passes" or "fails". The test objects of the game are not the players, but the recordings. Nobody "wins or looses".


These are the rules:

- there are really no rules; you can say about the clips whatever you want; any kind of comment about the playing, interpretation, sound quality or whatever else you want to contribute is welcome; whatever comes to mind as you are listening to the clips.

- you can try to identify the performers based on the particular sound and playing style of the orchestra, but you don't have to; this is very difficult, and in some cases it is simply not possible to positively identify the orchestra since so many of them sound rather similar these days; but in some cases, it may actually be possible to point to a specific orchestra or at least in its general direction, namely what regional playing and sound style seems to be at work here; it may also be very difficult to guess the condctors unless the interpretation is extremely "typical" and somehow "unique".

- again, you don't "have to" guess the performers, but it adds an extra element of fun to the game.

- click on the links I provide, they will take you to a tinyurl preview of the download location (yousendit.com), then proceed to the location and save the file; listen to it, preferably on good sound equipment, and post your comments. No, there is no risk of viruses because all the files come directly from the original CDs, I only recode and upload them; all the files are in high quality 320kbps mp3, so some of them are a bit chunky, but download from yousendit is typically very fast if you have a good connection.

- one tip: do not try to figure out why I chose particular clips from particular perfomers; I select them more or less randomly; the only criterion is that I think they may be somehow interesting and good for a discussion, but for what reasons, or if I like them myself or not, you can not know; so do not waste your time trying to figure out why my evil mastermind chose a particular clip; you can check the file info, but you won't find anything since I recode the files myself and make sure there is nothing there which gives away the MO performers.


OK, on to the game. Since it has been going on in RMCR for a while, this is already round 15!

It is a long clip (the first 12 minutes or so) from Strauss' "Also sprach Zarathustra".
Here is the download link (28MB):

http://preview.tinyurl.com/yqw9ex

[M forever]

Here are the bonus clips. Both clips are alternative versions of the same stretch of music, the first 12 minutes or so of "Also sprach Zarathustra". You can listen to all 3 clips and compare them, or just comment on any single of them:

MO15 bonus 1
http://preview.tinyurl.com/3xpujt

MO15 bonus 2
http://preview.tinyurl.com/33aqt3

[Que]

This should be fun. I don't know the piece very well - I hardly ever listen to it. And I have only one recording: Kempe, which I didn't check as not to spoil the fun. Listened to the clips on my computer.

Clip I
Agree with George that this is slow, too slow and lacks the necessary tension. On the other hand execution is very good. Very finely detailed string playing - especially in the strings passage after the opening. The performance has a French flavour to me: there is much emphasis on the "sound picture" indulging in the lushness of Strauss' writing - a bit of Berlioz/Debussy flavours are highlighted. But it all sound too detached and relaxed. Like I said, a good orchestra, but which? If I would pick one: the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.

Clip II
I don't like it. The beginning is nice upbeat and the timpani fierce (but sounding cheap & awful, with ugly tone BTW! Compare with clip III). This performance is too glossy, creamy and overtly sentimental and sweet IMO. Lacks in refinement and inner tension. I can understand George mentioning Karajan - the string playing reminds my of him, but I would rate Karajan's Strauss better than this. Because of all this creaminess I would guess a British orchestra, possibly even with a British conductor.

Clip III
I like this the best. Top orchestra with beautiful string tone and woodwinds. I'm sticking my neck out here, but it immediately evoked a Concertgebouw Orchestra feel with me. But it could also be the Gewandhausorchester. Touching but not sentimental, nicely balanced, finely grained. A bit emotionally "objective" - let's guess the appropriate conductor: Haitink? (Don't know that recording BTW).

OK, let me have it!   I'm very curious what others will make of it.

Q

[Greta]

Hey M! We had a lot of fun with this game at the newsgroup. I like the Mystery Comparison element, with several clips, I started one of those games at RMCR and it was quite interesting!

I'll be back to post comments after I've had the chance to give them a good listen...

[MishaK]

Hi M,

Thanks for moving this here. RMCR is a kindergarten and the interface stinks. I'm reposting below my comments from RMCR on the first clip. Will try to find some time tonight to listen to the other two. Cheers.

I find the opening very perfunctory, a bit sloppy both in terms of coordination as well as intonation, and not well balanced. In the fff tutti section, middle voices in the brass almost drown out the top and bottom voices that should anchor the harmony. Horns are too loud and
not well blended in a number of other places as well. The following slow string passage is very idiomatically and beautifully played (perhaps almost too sweet, just this side of cheesy). Too bad the string soloists have trouble with intonation. So does the brass. The recording is rather boomy and bass heavy. No comments yet on the orchestra. Having trouble placing this. I can rule out quite a number as well as ruling out a number of conductors. It doesn't sound like a
band that I have ever heard live.

[johnshade]

For original clip...
A wild guess: Zinman - Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra

[orbital]

I think we will all admit that our reactions to musical performances and recordings are to a certain degree influenced not just by what we are actually hearing, but also by our expectations and preconceptions about the performers.

In that sense another sensible recommendation would be to download and listen to these files BEFORE reading any of the replies, as they cause some type of pre-conditioning as well. Now I am looking for a sluggish/slow introduction from the first clip without having listened to it yet 

[M forever]

True, but that is also up to you. You can still disagree with those views. In any case, your views won't be colored by your knowledge of the interpreters. Unless you can identify them, of course.
I am just wondering why you read the posts when you are aware of that "danger".

There is one other thing I forgot to mention: obviously, I want to take part in the discussion, too, but equally obviously, I can't voice my opinions until the very end, when the Mystery Performers get revealed. And just as obviously, those views won't be "blind".

But I still want to take part in the discussion, so I sometimes make comments and ask players questions, but, believe it or not, these questions are not meant to influence them, make them reconsider, suggest what answers I would like to hear. But I like to ask questions here and there, but more in a "moderating" or "hosting" function. Don't think if I ask a question, it is an additional "test". It isn't, and the questions I ask won't tell you anything about if the player I reply to is near the "truth" or far away.

Typically, I just ask players to clarify or elaborate points. So, if I ask johnshade "why?", it doesn't "mean anything" except for something like "can you tell us more about what led you to that conclusion?" It doesn't mean "you are right - did you know or guess?" or "you are totally wrong - please dig a deep hole for yourself!". Again, it's not about being "right or wrong", or "winning or loosing". It's all about the discussion.

For original clip...
A wild guess: Zinman - Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra

Why? Can you tell us more about what led you to that conclusion?

[karlhenning]

Why? Can you tell us more about what led you to that conclusion?

Yes, the journey is more than the destination! :-)

[M forever]

You are very right, karlhenning, so please take the journey and post your travel diary.

Speaking of which, is "Sean" still posting here?

[Sergeant Rock]

Q and George must be Reiner fans if they think the first clip is too slow. I didn't think it was slow at all. In fact, it's too fast for my taste (not as fast as Reiner, though--he should have been given a speeding ticket). When the orchestra cuts out of the introduction, leaving the organ alone, it doesn't sound like an integral part of the orchestra but tacked on and cheesy. It's too short also. I like the organ to carry on for three, four, even five seconds.

Now the second clip: That's the way I want to hear this music. Intensely dramatic, completely over-the-top and majestically slow--but supercharged too. If this isn't Sinopoli and the NY Phil, its close enough to be a twin.

The third clip I haven't downloaded.

Sarge

[orbital]

I listened to the original clip. The first impression is I like it soundwise.
It is a bit slow in the opening passage, but what puts me off there is not the tempo but the small pause between the E and the E flat (I guess these are the notes). I am accustomed to this piece through Previn and VPO who cut the E short and move onto E flat in legato which makes a better declaration of the subject for me. Woodwinds following that are a bit quiet, but the string section that follows is very well executed and in very good tone although I am always looking for a little bit more vibrato there (again due to my familiarity with Previn perhaps).
With the full orchestra the overall sound is very enjoyable and the dance theme is well played out.
Overall, although this is probably 1/3 of the piece, I'd be interested to find out who it is, but would still go with Previn/VPO (at least until I listen to the other two)

[Sergeant Rock]

Indeed. 

I really admire your courage...using the "I" word so blatantly, not even tucked away, out of sight, in the middle of a sentence but right out there, where no one can miss it. Brave man indeed. 

Sarge

[M forever]

Thanks for the highly interesting posts so far. I am very tempted to make a few comments, but at this point, I don't want to influence the listening and reviewing. Maybe a little later.

I am also very tempted to reward all the many good commentators above above with a few more bonus clips, and indeed, there are a number of interesting Zarathustra CDs sitting right next to my keyboard. But I think I will wait a little with that, too, because at some point, with too many clips out, the discussion can get a little confusing.

Let's hear more about the first three clips first. In the meantime, I will make up my mind which other recordings to post.

I forgot one more thing: typically, at the end of each round, I make the complete recording(s) available for download in lossless quality, but, of course, only to those who participated in the round, as a reward. It doesn't matter if you guessed "right or wrong". All players can download it. In this case, I may upload all three or let you chose which one you would like to have.

[sidoze]

It is a long clip (the first 12 minutes or so) from Strauss' "Also sprach Zarathustra".
Here is the download link (28MB):

http://preview.tinyurl.com/yqw9ex

Have you heard Asahina?

[M forever]

Maybe. Or maybe not. Is that a trick question? Do you think one of the clips might be Asahina? Then go ahead and post your views. I can't answer any questions at this point. In any case, I ask the questions here!   

[Mark]

I'm gonna take a wild stab in the dark and suggest that the original clip is Maazel/VPO.

[Que]

I'm gonna take a wild stab in the dark and suggest that the original clip is Maazel/VPO.

I seriously considered the VPO for the first clip, thought it sounded a bit too straight and "clean" for that, but it might well be.  

Q

[Mark]

I'm gonna take a wild stab in the dark and suggest that the original clip is Maazel/VPO.

No, I retract this first guess. It's not the VPO. It lacks their controlled mastery. It's almost certainly a US orchestra ... though a few moments make me want to hazard a guess that it might be the LSO in an earlier incarnation.

[M forever]

I seriously considered the VPO for the first clip, thought it sounded a bit too straight and "clean" for that, but it might well be.  
Q

But Q, you originally said, there is a French sounding element to the interpetation, but you would still guess CSO, that and the WP are two quite different sounding orchestras, aren't they? Somebody else said WP, too (I think that was orbital), another poster said TOZ. Mark retracted his WP guess and now points to more Western shores.
Very interesting! Should I give some hints? Let me think about it.

Remember, y'all don't have to guess, you can also simply review the clips and post your general impressions.

No, I retract this first guess. It's not the VPO. It lacks their controlled mastery. It's almost certainly a US orchestra ... though a few moments make me want to hazard a guess that it might be the LSO in an earlier incarnation.

What do you mean by "controlled mastery" here?