Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[dirkronk]

Holden, I have to say that your comments have made me curious to hear Gilels' set in toto. While I have perhaps a third or more of his DGG sonatas, I don't think I've ever heard the "entire" (incomplete) cycle. As a result, I've found myself often doing spin-offs that lead me to prefer his live (or sometimes simply earlier) renditions of various sonatas. The Hammerklavier is a good case in point: to my ears, his Melodiya version trumps the DGG rather handily (this opinion created by an A-B comparison many years back...I think I still have the DGG Hammerklavier on vinyl but not CD). However, you make me wonder if I'd have the same opinion if approaching the performance with my ear attuned to the style he apparently established for his full studio effort.

I'll be interested in hearing your opinion again after you've listened through another time or two (as I'm sure you will).


Dirk

[George]

I would kill for a complete set of Gilels playing the Beethoven sonatas, ca. 1950. 

[Fred]

Holden - at the speed Barenboim plays I'm sure he can sight-read everything (he's not a fav either).  But I recently read Kovacevich (who is a fav) saying that it took him two years to learn the hammerklavier and the experience almost drove him to despair.

But I'd be interested to know your comments on Gilel's Hammerklavier.  In the first movement, I keep waiting for lift-off, but all he does is taxi to the runway.   It's as if he's channelling Richter playing Schubert.  What's he up to?

[SonicMan46]

El Bacha, on the other hand, is accused of sight-reading.  But I take back what I've said about him being good - if he's sight-reading his way through the hammerklavier, he's a genius.

Fred - you've made 3 posts to this forum and on a very difficult & controversial topic, i.e. the LvB Piano Sonatas, and have come up w/ an apparent recommendation on El Bacha, a performer that I've never heard of until your appearance here? 

Now, I'm not one of the 'experts' here in this repertoire but have own about a half dozen sets of these sonatas - now just have about half of that number, but others here must have a dozen or more - thus my question to you, is how many have your heard, how many do you own currently, and why is El Bacha apparently at the TOP of your list?  Just wondering - 

[Fred]

Excellent and fair question:

Complete sets: I own - Lortie (not listened yet); Kovacevich (big fan), Gilels, Fischer, Grinberg (pretty good), fair bit of Arrau, Lewis (a bit too cultured for my liking), Goode (ditto  - but wonderful in places), schiff, wehr (seriously good, and cheap) and several others that don't spring to mind right now.  Got lots of Richter and love him.

I got a bit addicted to the beethoven sonatas at one stage.  So maybe after listening to every man and his dog try to show me how great this music was, I finally appreciated someone who just plays it and lets me be the judge (El Bacha).  I know some people see him as too straightforward - but I prefer to think of him as unaffected and you certainly get to hear every note you pay for. True, he can make it sound a bit easy at times and maybe he should pretend to struggle, even when he isn't.  But, paradoxically, I think there is real energy inside his playing (if you listene) and he isn't afraid to bang away, it's just that when he does, he never sounds harsh.

Anyway, if that doesn't make any sense, it's probably appropriate.  I agree with you totally that when it comes to assessing the Beethoven piano sonatas it's incredibly hard.  There's a set for every stage of your life and every mood you're in.

[George]

I tried to sample some of El Bacha's Beethoven over at youtube and found nothing.

[Antoine Marchand]

Excellent and fair question:

Complete sets: I own - Lortie (not listened yet); Kovacevich (big fan), Gilels, Fischer, Grinberg (pretty good), fair bit of Arrau, Lewis (a bit too cultured for my liking), Goode (ditto  - but wonderful in places), schiff, wehr (seriously good, and cheap) and several others that don't spring to mind right now.  Got lots of Richter and love him.

I got a bit addicted to the beethoven sonatas at one stage.  So maybe after listening to every man and his dog try to show me how great this music was, I finally appreciated someone who just plays it and lets me be the judge (El Bacha).  I know some people see him as too straightforward - but I prefer to think of him as unaffected and you certainly get to hear every note you pay for. True, he can make it sound a bit easy at times and maybe he should pretend to struggle, even when he isn't.  But, paradoxically, I think there is real energy inside his playing (if you listene) and he isn't afraid to bang away, it's just that when he does, he never sounds harsh.

Anyway, if that doesn't make any sense, it's probably appropriate.  I agree with you totally that when it comes to assessing the Beethoven piano sonatas it's incredibly hard.  There's a set for every stage of your life and every mood you're in.

It's a civilized and intelligent response. Additionally, you wrote an excellent line: "... he can make it sound a bit easy at times and maybe he should pretend to struggle, even when he isn't".   

[dirkronk]

Additionally, you wrote an excellent line: "... he can make it sound a bit easy at times and maybe he should pretend to struggle, even when he isn't".   

A grammarian would disagree with the "excellent line" evaluation, but I have to admit, I rather like the thought expressed myself.


Dirk

[Scarpia]

It's a civilized and intelligent response. Additionally, you wrote an excellent line: "... he can make it sound a bit easy at times and maybe he should pretend to struggle, even when he isn't".   

I used to think playing the notes would be enough.  Then I heard Pommier.  He gave me the deep insight that playing the notes is not enough.   

[Fred]

I listened to El Bacha on Amazon France before I bought.  The Australian dollar has been putting on muscle recently (finally) which is one reason why I've been buying Beethoven sets.

[George]

I listened to El Bacha on Amazon France before I bought.  The Australian dollar has been putting on muscle recently (finally) which is one reason why I've been buying Beethoven sets.

Thanks, I found some samples at amazon.fr.

Bacha's Beethoven is far too relaxed for me. I like more tension, more excitement in my Beethoven.

I bet the sound is good, though.

[Fred]

Sound is excellent.  No tension?  You sure? If tension is "I'm not sure this guy will be able to play this music" then El Bacha doesn't have much tension.  But if tension is "I want to keep listening to this guy and hear what he's got to say" I find plenty of tension.   I just pulled out his disk of the late sonatas.  El Bacha does 109 to 111 in 61 minutes.  Leonskaja does them in 70 minutes; Jerome Rose in 66; Lortie 67.37. So I'm not sure you should call him "relaxed". The guy doesn't dawdle.

[Todd]

I bet the sound is good, though.

Sound is mediocre.  Taste regarding playing may differ widely, but sonics are a different matter.  There is no way this set can be said to be in particularly good sound.

The guy doesn't dawdle.

If only tempo in itself signified anything.

[George]

Sound is excellent.  No tension?  You sure? If tension is "I'm not sure this guy will be able to play this music" then El Bacha doesn't have much tension.  But if tension is "I want to keep listening to this guy and hear what he's got to say" I find plenty of tension.   I just pulled out his disk of the late sonatas.  El Bacha does 109 to 111 in 61 minutes.  Leonskaja does them in 70 minutes; Jerome Rose in 66; Lortie 67.37. So I'm not sure you should call him "relaxed". The guy doesn't dawdle.

Well, I didn't say no tension, I said "far less tension than I like in Beethoven." Tension to me is a sense of drama, of excitement. Tempo plays a part, but mostly it comes down to style. It isn't dictated by technique, for pianists like Gulda, Richter and Pollini have wonderful technique but also can generate a high level of tension in their playing. Also, by relaxed I meant something similar to lacking tension. I don't mean relaxed = slow, though. I just mean relaxed in the sense that it lacks that nervous energy and urgency that makes Beethoven sonata performances exciting for me. El Bacha is definitely not alone in this, however. I think Gilels is often too relaxed in the outer movements as well. His slow movements are stunning however. I think Kempff is another Beethoven pianist who lacks tension, but he makes up for it in beauty. Goode, Brendel and Silverman are more pianists that come to mind when I think of those who lack drama and excitement. Since I already have all of the above sets, I see no need to get another in this style.   

Examples of pianists who play Beethoven in the way I most enjoy are Rudolf Serkin (mono recordings especially), Josef Hoffman's live Waldstein, Moravec (Pathetique), Richter, Annie Fischer, Gulda and Schnabel.

[Philoctetes]

Lortie

Loveeeeeeeeeeeeee it.

Such clean and crisp playing. Lightness of touch. Probably my second favorite Beethoven.

[Fred]

I could be wrong about the sound, because I haven't really noticed it.

Lortie's box set is out now - got mine from presto classical.

Well, el bacha IS Lortie (though he motors a bit more).

In fact, I just did an A/B of Lortie and El Bacha in last movement 31/3.  Think El Bacha won it by a hair - though I would say that, wouldn't I.  But, God, he makes a gorgeous sound.

[George]

Loveeeeeeeeeeeeee it.

Such clean and crisp playing. Lightness of touch. Probably my second favorite Beethoven.

Who is your first?

[Philoctetes]

Who is your first?

Kuerti

[George]

Kuerti

Wow! That took you 18 seconds! 

I don't have that set. Someday...

[George]

Loveeeeeeeeeeeeee it.

I was going to argue that you can't hold a silent e, but then I realized it'd be impossible to prove.