Male-Female friendships

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

Have you ever had one? Have you ever had a best friend of the opposite sex? How long did it last?

When, if ever, is it necessary to broach the topic of "my interest in this friendship is only platonic"? I have a lot of enthusiasm for my friendship with a female friend, and we get along great, but I don't want her to let my enthusiasm be a source of awkwardness and worry for her.

What is the key to deepening these frienships and making them last?


Any other thoughts?

[Bulldog]

Have you ever had one? Have you ever had a best friend of the opposite sex? How long did it last?

When, if ever, is it necessary to broach the topic of "my interest in this friendship is only platonic"? I have a lot of enthusiasm for my friendship with a female friend, and we get along great, but I don't want her to let my enthusiasm be a source of awkwardness and worry for her.

What is the key to deepening these frienships and making them last?


Any other thoughts?

If you're married, you might want to give some more thought to deepening a friendship with a female - could be a dangerous route.

If not married, anything goes.

[eyeresist]

My best friend is female. We tried to make it romantic a couple of times, but always ended up miserable. The friendship really works though, and I can be much more open with her than I would be with a guy. So I guess the secret of male-female friendship is ... bad sex?

[lisa needs braces]

It's one of those things that the human pysche isn't really equipped to deal with. Simply put, in deep and fundamental ways, women do not understand men, and vice versa. Male friendship served an evolutionary purpose...to create a bond between men in hunting and in warfare. Male/female friendship also a serves an evolutionary purpose too...as a prelude to sex. Even if you think this is bullshit consider the effect such a relationship would have on your significant others. What husband would be comfortable with his wife having a man as a serious friend...and what women would think her husband or boyfriend wasn't at least emotionally cheating on her if he was carrying a significant friendship which he cherishes with another woman? In short, it's a bad idea all around.

[Mirror Image]

It's one of those things that the human pysche isn't really equipped to deal with. Simply put, in deep and fundamental ways, women do not understand men, and vice versa. Male friendship served an evolutionary purpose...to create a bond between men in hunting and in warfare. Male/female friendship also a serves an evolutionary purpose too...as a prelude to sex. Even if you think this is bullshit consider the effect such a relationship would have on your significant others. What husband would be comfortable with his wife having a man as a serious friend...and what women would think her husband or boyfriend wasn't at least emotionally cheating on her if he was carrying a significant friendship which he cherishes with another woman? In short, it's a bad idea all around.

Yeah, I definitely couldn't be really good friends with a woman especially if she looked like this:









There's only one thing I would be thinking about each time I looked at her and it's where can we go to do it.

[eyeresist]

Simply put, in deep and fundamental ways, women do not understand men, and vice versa.

No, I don't buy this, although it's a popular view. The sexes have different bodies, and men have a significant amount more testosterone in their systems, which accounts for much of the attitudinal and emotional divergence, but our brains basically work the same way. There are women who I consider basically the same sort of person as me, and there are men who to me are basically aliens. The idea that we are irrevocably divided, mentally and spiritually, along lines of sex can't account for this.

[Lethevich]

If you are married, it would seem odd if this friend became a sudden fixture in your life, so I would go slowly. Generally I wouldn't see a problem with it providing it seems healthy and your spouse has no self-confidence issues (not all couples are 100% secure with each other). One way to help make it clear that it's a friendship you are going for is just to mention your wife every now and again in everyday conversation like you would in any other, as a kind of reminder.

No spouse would be more difficult because she might interpret it as groundwork for a relationship, then lose interest when she finds that this is not a prospect. Just see how it goes.

What husband would be comfortable with his wife having a man as a serious friend...and what women would think her husband or boyfriend wasn't at least emotionally cheating on her if he was carrying a significant friendship which he cherishes with another woman? In short, it's a bad idea all around.

If you're going for gender characteristics, it's women who go for "emotional" affairs (which tend to lead to breakups), and guys who usually go for sexual ones (which they would rather not cause a breakup if they can help it), so it's a female with a close male friend who would be a greater threat to a relationship.

[The Six]

If you're incapable of having a strictly platonic friend of the opposite sex, you might still be in high school.

[Brian]

My best friend is a female, and a very attractive one at that (not model-level but Mirror Image would approve ), and she's been my best friend for about two years (with a small gap near the very beginning where we had a big non-sexual-things-related fight). I've never known her as a single person and she's never known me when I was in a relationship, for what it's worth. But it's the closest, most intimate friendship I've had in years and years, and as a matter of fact not two hours after the first post here went up she sent me an e-mail begging for help because there's drama with her exes that she doesn't want to tell her boyfriend about. With lots of the kind of details that I skipped because it's too early in the morning for that. 

I think we're a pretty good disproof of the "human pysche isn't really equipped to deal with it, men and women can't understand each other" thing. From a couple years of experience I can verify that she and I think pretty much the same way about everything, such that most of the time we don't even need to say what our opinion of something is because we just assume the other person shares it. It might not hurt that she's not the stereotypical "woman," and in fact has a very hard time maintaining friendships with other women (!), and I'm not the stereotypical Pavlovian football-watching guy either. 

RE: the topic of this thread: We recently had to take a step back and explicitly acknowledge to each other that people of opposite genders who intuitively understand each other so well and agree on most of the big life-values questions and sign off their e-mails with "love" (or more) might possibly be at risk of a romantic incursion. But we had no conception of what it would be like to date, couldn't even imagine it except that it would almost be like dating a sibling. We did leave open the possibility of turning into I think the movie she cited was When Harry Met Sally (never seen it). Probably a lot of guys would be mentally tortured by this, but I have a strong talent for denying myself thoughts about that stuff and besides I am quite content with things as they are.

Also, she doesn't like classical music. 

[Lethevich]

Brian, I've encountered two of those rare beasts that you describe - they are awesome, aren't they? One of my female friends has a very male-oriented psyche (myself too, to some degree) which puts her socially in quite high demand - it's neat to watch the process of her making friends with a guy, him realising after a while that she's not looking to date him, him sometimes getting annoyed by this, then being happy to be in that friend-zone because she's more interesting to him than any of the women he's met before.

That "has a very hard time maintaining friendships with other women" seems to be a most common characteristic with them - they tend to dislike the mind-games aspect of a lot of female social groups and find the straight-forwardness of male company to be refreshing. I don't find that characteristic of fem-fem interactions to be a universal one, but it's unfortunately common.

"Also, she doesn't like classical music."

From my irl experience, who does?

[snyprrr]

friend-zone

guys, better watch THAT one,... don't get caught in the 'friend zone' when you don't want to be. Lots of miserably de-masculated/feminized men out there acting like a woman's lap dog. Sorry about the vitriol, but I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo tired of ending up the 'friend',... especially with the 'wow, this girl is more interesting than the rest'. I am just sick of this fem-biased society. Where are the real men?

If I want a 'friend', I look for someone with a penis.

aaargh , this Topic pisses me off,... ALL I GET is the girl 'friends',...'oh, you're so interesting, but I only like you as a friend.'

oh, you've opened up a hornet's nest here, haha. Let me just crack my knuckles and I'll be on this Post for HOURS!!

Yea, I can't seem to get 'laid' (figuratively speaking,... ok, on ANY level, haha) to save my life, and it's gotten to a critical level.


I know some women who have their 'stable' of male friends, and think that this is just peachy,... oh, and they always also have a boyfriend (always wonder how this guy feels),... 'oh, they're just friends',... yea, I've heard THAT one, oy!! I don't really care if they ARE just friends, if you feel the need to be surrounded by 'chamberlains', well then Miss Modern Woman, I'm afraid you might have just drank the kool-aid. The 'feminization' is so complete,... men who talk in a very feminine way (could be the food hormones), women who act like John Wayne (the food again?).

When women get to 'play' Man, and wear the suits, and be the CEO, and the astronaut,... and the 'MAQN', ... there is no other place for a man to go than to play 'Woman'. This is just not cool. Women dressing up in suits,... sure THAT's empowering,... but a guy in a dress??,... that's just stupid.

'Everyone' (in quotes) likes to see to hot girls kissing, but I'm sure the percetages go waaay down for the other option. Stop with the 'Equality',... there IS NO SUCH THING!! No woman will ever impregnate anyone, and (yet) no man has ever carried a child.

It IS sad that I automatically think any 'smart' woman is going to be so totally infected with 'I'm-AM-the-shit' Disease that I run screaming anytime she says she has something important to say.

HA,.. yea, find me a woman with whom I can talk Xenakis,... better yet, find me a HOTTIE with whom I can do same,... DON'T EXIST,... unless it's the daughter of someone on GMG.

The NEW Fairy Tale world we live in since women started collecting stables of men for 'friends'.


Oh, and just in case you think I'm bein a pooper,... most of my 'friends' are women,... I am ALWAYS on the lookout for a MAN, baby,... y'know, those people you used to buddy up with and tell your girl problems to.


ugh, sorry, sore subject,... yea, you know, my dear 'woman friend',... if you were really such a good friend, 'buddy', why don't you help a friend out, huh? Why not just sacrifice yourself for you 'buddy'? Yea, I didn't think so,... hey guys, really, ask yourself how good of friends you really are with your woman 'friend'.

yea, only bad sex makes for good 'mixed' friends.



Haha, I remember my WHOLE LIFE I have heard stories about how men ruled over woman our whole history and it's time to blah blah blah,... well, let me tell yoooooooooooouuuuuu something,... hasn't been ONE DAY of my life that it doesn't seem like the feminization of our society hasn't farted in my face,... yea, women have ruling it since I've been (consciously) on this planet, so I think you all were just making it up. Let's look at this:

Was there an atomic bomb before women started getting their 'rights'?

Was there rap music before women started getting their 'rights'?

Nixon? AIDS? Milli Vanilli? 9/11?


I rest my case.

[springrite]

I have had a few and still do. They are wondeful.


Oh, I should mention this. A couple who are both psychologists are my very good friends. Vanessa knows about them but have not met them. I have a good working relationship with one of them and we meet often, sometimes very late, and we have gone on lecture trips together. I always tell Vanessa what is going on in my professional life and in my life in general. She's happy with my openness.
Last month, he came to my home and Vanessa finally met him. She looked so happy.

Two days later, Vanessa told me that she had always thought the one that I worked with a lot was the wife. It happens that the husband has a somewhat female-sounding name and the wife a rather male-sounding name. Vanessa laughed and told me she was so relieved that it's the husband and not the wife. She had always worried about this relationship but wanted so seem like a supportive and understanding wife!

I do have a female friend that Vanessa knew about. She's understanding about it. I almost never meet this woman alone and we never go on trips together. What got Vanessa upset was one time when this woman called me "Teddy Bear" and it was clear that's what she always calls me, like a nickname.

A couple of months ago, this woman was in trouble and when Vanessa heard about it, she insisted that I help her.

[Coco]

I'm not romantically interested in women, so female friendships are not an issue for me, same goes for straight males. Friendships with other gay guys is something I'm working on (I have only a few close friends anyway). One of my good friends and I dated for a few months, but decided to break it off when we both mutually decided that we wanted different things from a relationship. We talk all the time and there's no awkwardness, but I attribute that to the both of us seeing things logically rather than anything intrinsic to our gender or orientation. Being in another relationship helps if there's no possibility for an extra-relationship love interest.

In general I think I am socially attracted to people who fall outside of the social norms of their respective gender. I like men who don't feel the need to overpower people and I like women who are forward and not subservient. "Bro culture" creeps me the hell out.

[zamyrabyrd]

- they tend to dislike the mind-games aspect of a lot of female social groups and find the straight-forwardness of male company to be refreshing.

Maybe I'm a traitor but the above is true for me most of the time.  I'd rather trade ideas with a guy(s) than sort out the intricate politics of women's quiltmaking societies. If it were just sewing (and I do that well), singing in a choir or making up programs for students (ugh - if they happen to be all women and are reading each other's thoughts and making their decisions according to what they feel everyone else is feeling and WHOM to shun just like in grade school) I wouldn't mind, but there is usually a lot of stuff going on under the surface and I'm not interested. This might have to do with my upbringing that was fun, intellectual sparring with my father.

ZB

[Lethevich]

Maybe I'm a traitor

Definitely not - I'm happy to poke fun at my own gender where I see it's lacking. Snyprrr should try this sometimes

[karlhenning]

Perhaps snyppsss already has . . . .

[Cato]

Interesting synchronicity (for me) that XB-70 has started such a topic.

A grade-school friend from over 55 years ago (keep that in mind) knew that I have been writing a large novel, which uses our grade school, high school, and Catholic parish as a background.

He happened to see one of our "girl' classmates at a reunion, and said she would be interested in reading the novel and offering her story about life long ago in a Catholic high school for girls, which could be valuable for me.

So yes, for 18 months we have been sending e-mails about memories from nearly 60 years ago, and she has sent me long reviews per chapter of the novel-in-progress.  She is married (approaching 40 years), lives in a small town, has 4 adult children causing the usual Sturm und Drang, etc.

Out of the blue on Friday she reveals that her retired husband is basically jealous of the time she spends writing to me and reading the book!  As a result she has stopped reading recent chapters, and has slowed down the rate of her correspondence.

I have not seen her since we were 13, and have no intention of seeing her, and have not even hinted that we should meet socially with our spouses, even though one of her children lives in the same city where I reside.

In any case, she has refused to stop writing to me or reading the novel, and has told her husband to "deal with it," and that he was being ridiculous.  But she did say her letters will be less frequent.

So there you have it!  I was rather shocked, and felt like I had done something wrong.  (Catholic guilt  0:)  hovers ever near!)   

Anyway, I have heard that even nursing homes are not immune to such jealousies, a tribute to the incredible persistence of the urge to merge.

[Brian]

Brian, I've encountered two of those rare beasts that you describe - they are awesome, aren't they? [...] then being happy to be in that friend-zone because she's more interesting to him than any of the women he's met before.

They are indeed awesome. I consider myself very lucky to have such a good friend who's like that - she has little to no tolerance for the "mind-games" that you mention and she is often even better than most guys are at cutting the crap and just saying whatever's bothering her, what she thinks are the reasons they're bothering her, and if you're lucky, she'll even explain all the subconscious streams of thought that are influencing how she feels about everything. Our friendship works because I (like Corey...) really can't abide the with-the-guys bro whateverness that I had to deal with in public schools and she can't abide trying to parse the minds of other women. We leave any conceivable walls down in our communication and agree on trust that things we say aren't ever intended to hurt or be mean. It's liberating in some ways.

I think part of our success w/r/t the romance hurdle that seems to take down some of the Male-Female friendships in this thread is that since I first met her she's been in first one than another very serious relationship with other guys, and although ethically it is pretty awkward to tell me, e.g., when she cheats on them or doesn't trust them, I'm constantly supportive, at least when her efforts are in the direction of sticking with a good mate. I, meanwhile, am the "romantic troglodyte with the heart of gold" that you see in teen movies, and she's constantly supportive of me trying not to be that guy anymore. 

And no, no, one hardly ever meets another classical fan in real life, but I took her to see Dudamel/Simon Bolivar YO and she spent all of Tchaikovsky's Fourth texting. 

One of my good friends and I dated for a few months, but decided to break it off when we both mutually decided that we wanted different things from a relationship. We talk all the time and there's no awkwardness, but I attribute that to the both of us seeing things logically rather than anything intrinsic to our gender or orientation. Being in another relationship helps if there's no possibility for an extra-relationship love interest.

Agreed on the last two sentences, and on the first: my best friendship prior to the above-discussed one was with my ex-girlfriend after she became my ex-girlfriend. We grew closer, oddly enough, probably because we knew we weren't really the best couple but still were very concerned with seeing the other happy. Then, though, she appears to have very suddenly become very angry with me, for reasons which in the four years since she has tried [hard, to her credit] and struggled to articulate, and cut off the whole thing. She's since tried to rebuild the bridge, which broke my heart because I had moved on, acquired a whole new ensemble of friends, and had no real emotional sense of what a relationship with her would be based upon. I guess "adding" a friend is easier on Facebook than in life.

hasn't been ONE DAY of my life that it doesn't seem like the feminization of our society hasn't farted in my face

The only comment I have on snyprrr's post is that it sounds like it was written by someone much younger than I thought snyprrr was... or possibly a brilliant satirist!

Am fascinated by Cato's story. The strange workings of the human mind, and the third rail that is memory! Perhaps she confessed to her husband that she had a crush on Cato 60 years ago?  0:)

[Lethevich]

Agreed on the last two sentences, and on the first: my best friendship prior to the above-discussed one was with my ex-girlfriend after she became my ex-girlfriend. We grew closer, oddly enough, probably because we knew we weren't really the best couple but still were very concerned with seeing the other happy. Then, though, she appears to have very suddenly become very angry with me, for reasons which in the four years since she has tried [hard, to her credit] and struggled to articulate, and cut off the whole thing. She's since tried to rebuild the bridge, which broke my heart because I had moved on, acquired a whole new ensemble of friends, and had no real emotional sense of what a relationship with her would be based upon. I guess "adding" a friend is easier on Facebook than in life.

That sounds kinda scary - although if she took the ego hit to get back into contact with you, she is probably serious about remaining on good terms and if you go into it with low expectations it might work out nicely. Of my painfully narrow circle of friends, my closest two are exes. I think that short-term relationships have a way of exposing the best elements of a personality, and I suppose that these remain in the mind of the former partner and can foster a strong affection long after any questions of "are they the one?" are set aside.

[Cato]

And no, no, one hardly ever meets another classical fan in real life, but I took her to see Dudamel/Simon Bolivar YO and she spent all of Tchaikovsky's Fourth texting. 

Dude!  That is just rude, and not just to Tchaikovsky!   

. I guess "adding" a friend is easier on Facebook than in life.

Amen!   0:)

The only comment I have on snyprrr's post is that it sounds like it was written by someone much younger than I thought snyprrr was... or possibly a brilliant satirist!

Snyprrr is not alone in being aghast at the "war on boys" which has occurred in the last generation.  The feminization of the kulcher has become pervasive: too often there are stories of moron teachers/principals/educational bureaucrats/parents/etc. wringing their hands and calling in psychiatrists and even the police because a 9-year old boy acted...like a 9-year old boy!

Am fascinated by Cato's story. The strange workings of the human mind, and the third rail that is memory! Perhaps she confessed to her husband that she had a crush on Cato 50 years ago?

Highly doubtful!   

And how pathetic and insecure is her husband, if that were in fact true?! I can see where he might (very very "might") have an issue if she were a former fiance' or something, and I were unmarried.  But over 45 years have gone by since we left the 8th Grade!!!

Oh well!  Yes, it is indeed a strange and fascinating story!