Beethoven sceptic's thread

[quintett op.57]

When I saw this thread, I figured that it would elicit strong reactions, but against my better judgment, I decided to look anyway.  The basic idea posed here seems reasonable to discuss.  In general, certain composers (Beethoven, Bach, Mahler, Mozart, ...) do have groups of fanatics who have a hard time tolerating the idea that some people might just not connect strongly with the music.  Also, some composers (i.e. Telemann and other composers of lighter styles of music) have groups of fanatical detractors.  I have found this phenomenon to be interesting, especially since aesthetic judgments tend to be so highly subjective.  What does it matter if someone doesn't happen to connect strongly with Beethoven?  I have two friends who have a strong interest in many types of classical music but don't happen to be highly interested in Beethoven's music (although there are a few pieces that they like - one likes the Third and Ninth symphonies, and the other likes the "Spring" violin sonata).  I listen to Beethoven a lot, and my interest in him is growing lately.  It actually took me a bit of time to get to this point; while there are pieces I have liked from the beginning, it took me some time to warm up to a lot of his work.  I like his music, and he is one of my favorite composers of his time, but I don't worship at his altar and I don't get upset if somebody doesn't like him.

Heather

I've still seen no scornful or hateful reactions. No composer has more fans than Beethoven hear if we consider the past polls. But how many times have you read a post assuming that Beethoven's superior to the rest?
It seems to me that you can read much oftener .... is greater than any other composer (and especially .......) or ...... is greater than any other composer (especially .....). 

And, precisely in this thread, we're talking about intolerance. Don't you find it strange?

[Boris_G]

I've still seen no scornful or hateful reactions. No composer has more fans than Beethoven if we consider the past polls.

And, precisely in this thread, we're talking about intolerance. Don't you find it strange?

Some of the most vindictive haven't been on-line since I started this thread earlier today - though I was rather surprised by this:

Ooooh Ooooh!   You "suddenly thought" this!

Good for you!

Ooooh Ooooh!  Phone the neighbors and wake the kids ..........

Don't worry.  Go listen to your Delibes and shut the f*** up ........

[mahlertitan]

it's perfectly alright to hate Beethoven, for whatever reasons, as long as you have listened to the larger part of his oeuvre, and made an effort to understand him, it's perfectly aright to hate Beethoven.

personally, i worship Beethoven, the man is a music god.

You persistently speak of people who on this forum who are "fanatic" about Beethoven, Lol, i think it applies more to Mahler than Beethoven.

[sidoze]

Trollop over Wittgenstein? Any day.

Yes me too. A trollop over Wittgenstein any day or night

[quintett op.57]

Some of the most vindictive haven't been on-line since I started this thread earlier today - though I was rather surprised by this:

This is a reaction against what he thought to be a provocation. Some people here are tired with the confrontative threads we enjoyed lately.
This has nothing to do with beethovenian fanatism.
Even if you criticized his beloved Brahms, I'm sure D would not react aggressively.

[max]

Why do people make things so stupidly complicated. If there is such a thing as greatness in music then Beethoven exists at the top tier which is where further 'subdivisions' really get complicated. What is understood is generally what is most appreciated. It's as simple as that.

I have no doubt that the majority would give all the works of Beethoven including Mozart and Bach for another hit by their favorite rock group or whatever. Why make a case out of it as if it were some kind of profound deviation??

[zamyrabyrd]

Humor, indeed, and also in Mozart's music.
Now, Vlado Perlemutter said in one of his materclasses on the Op.110 piano sonata that the fast 2/4 movement was taken from a drinking song but I found no other evidence besides what he said.
Does anyone know about this?

ZB

[Novi]

Humor, indeed, and also in Mozart's music.
Now, Vlado Perlemutter said in one of his materclasses on the Op.110 piano sonata that the fast 2/4 movement was taken from a drinking song but I found no other evidence besides what he said.
Does anyone know about this?

ZB

According to Andras Schiff, there are references to a couple of German folk songs, about cats and kittens or some such . 

[Gabriel]

Fidelio....how do people like that garbage?


Other than that, Beethoven is fine in my books.

Might I ask why you consider Fidelio as garbage?

[Scriptavolant]

According to Andras Schiff, there are references to a couple of German folk songs, about cats and kittens or some such . 

Ya, one goes "Our cat had had kittens" and the other one goes "I'm down and out, we are all down and out etc. etc.". Couldn't recall the original german.

[Topaz]

This thread has brought out all the Beethoven lovers, not the haters (except one). 

I recall from a previous Beethoven hater I once met elsewhere that both Ravel and Debussy had a low regard for Beethoven.  I see that Boris likes these two in preference to Beethoven.  I've never been able to find out exactly what Ravel and Debussy said on this topic, or why. 

[karlhenning]

I think that to some extent that was as much "positional" as anything having to do just with the sound.  Beethoven cast a large shadow on the 19th century, and at the turn of the 20th, Debussy and Ravel saw themselves to some extent as discovering alternative musical models.

[Boris_G]

This thread has brought out all the Beethoven lovers, not the haters (except one). 

Perhaps they're too nervous to come out of the closet. 

I recall from a previous Beethoven hater I once met elsewhere that both Ravel and Debussy had a low regard for Beethoven.  I see that Boris likes these two in preference to Beethoven.  I've never been able to find out exactly what Ravel and Debussy said on this topic, or why. 

Well, as I said before, I generally prefer the company of Ravel and Debussy. That's not to deny Beethoven his greatness, but I'm much more on the wavelength of those Frenchmen - less overbearing and able to express so much with such unostentatious style. btw, I'm thinking of closing down this thread, as its title is rather misleading and I don't think it's possible to change it...?

[karlhenning]

btw, I'm thinking of closing down this thread, as its title is rather misleading and I don't think it's possible to change it...?

If you're the OP, you can edit the subject header of that initial message.  It won't change the subject of the responses so far, but will change them thereafter.

[Boris_G]

If you're the OP, you can edit the subject header of that initial message.  It won't change the subject of the responses so far, but will change them thereafter.

OK, I've done it now. Thanks for encouraging me to investigate. 

[karlhenning]

There you go!

[Scriptavolant]

This thread has brought out all the Beethoven lovers, not the haters (except one). 

I recall from a previous Beethoven hater I once met elsewhere that both Ravel and Debussy had a low regard for Beethoven.  I see that Boris likes these two in preference to Beethoven.  I've never been able to find out exactly what Ravel and Debussy said on this topic, or why. 

I think it was a matter of poetics, at least for what concern Ravel. All XXth century composers (Stravinskij included) someway inheritated, or had to face, the consequence of Romantic poetics and its huge influence towards common people and culture. It was - and is - a great burden, and the aim was to find out something new, and to contrast a serie of clichés that the Romantic culture brought in. See for example Hanslick's "Vom Musikalisch-Schönen".

For what concern Debussy, I've never understood what is criticism was all about either, by the way I remember I've read a quote of him, where he said something like "A great artist can succeed even without taste. Think about Beethoven. But Mozart, that equals him in genius, had yet subtler taste."

[karlhenning]

I think it was a matter of poetics, at least for what concern Ravel. All XXth century composers (Stravinskij included) someway inheritated, or had to face, the consequence of Romantic poetics and its huge influence towards common people and culture. It was - and is - a great burden . . . .

Good points; only I think you overestimate the continued presence of the "burden."  Especially by our day, the 19th century is far enough back that I, at any rate, fail to find it anything of a gorilla in the room.  But I speak compositionally.

The matter of the 19th century dominating orchestral programming, is subtly another matter.

[mahlertitan]

Perhaps they're too nervous to come out of the closet. 

maybe there aren't any? maybe you are making things up?

[Boris_G]

maybe there aren't any? maybe you are making things up?

Maybe I was being a little bit mischievous.