Is classical music merely self-aggrandizing?

[Michel]

In all seriousness, what goes through our head when we listen to something either from the ivory, upper class tower of baroque music, or the tormented, quasi intellectual sounds of the romantic period?

What do we get from it? How many of us listen to it because it merely reinforces our desired identity? (ie. someone clever?) How many of us, if we are honest, can admit that objectively, there is no difference between Beethoven and the Beatles, but only our subjective response to it and interpretation of its relative importance in history? Why do we constantly explore new classical artists and revisit those we've previously not liked yet not once go to the Heavy Metal section of the CD shop and ask ourselves, I must learn to understand what Metallica were hoping to do... I don't like them but they are objectively great....Why do we give classical composers such a monopoly over greatness - why are we so forgiving in their mistakes? Why can we not slag them off?

One possible answer is that we do all this because we want a piece of their legitimacy - a piece of their reputation and intelligence so that when people ask what you listen to, you tell them Brahms and you expect a certain response, you get pigeoned in the "clever" category, a category you'd like to broadcast.  And when you listen to it, you think you are getting nourished with the same genius that wrote it.

I don't think that the concept of identity can be overemphasized when considering why we choose to do certain things, and I think that classical music is a self-aggrandizing activity for this reason. Someone by the name of Don on this forum once said that they barely listened to anything besides Bach's organ music for 2 years; no normal person could ever do this, only the self-obsessed, egotistical intellectual elitist, who probably isn't actually that clever, hence having a greater need for self-aggrandizement.

I suppose this thought could be applied to all art, in the sense that any creation is by definition insincere, since it is for the consumption of others and why would you want to create something, for example, as a result of a very personal experience, to be consumed by others? To me, it just seems crass. If my children died, the last thing I would want to do is write a poem or piece of music about it.

Therefore, if we take for a minute that this is the case, that music is all "fake", then why do we want to hear it? Is it a tool, however unreal, that is pleasant and clever that just plays with our emotions? But if that is the case, why do we in the first instance consider ourself emotional beings, capable of that profundity? Why do we listen to Mahler, and think we as inidviduals are intelligent enough to interpret it? And by this I mean not unlocking a secret code that requires brainpower, but the understanding that you yourself understand emotions and feelings to a level were you can respond and relate to something very complex.

Why do we listen to this music? I love it, most of the time. But I do still feel guilty that I am engaging in something pretentious and insincere on occasion.

[karlhenning]

In all seriousness, what goes through our head when we listen to something either from the ivory, upper class tower of baroque music, or the tormented, quasi intellectual sounds of the romantic period?

How beautiful it all is!

[mahlertitan]

uh...no, i hardly ever mention to my friends that i am into classical music, i listen to classical music because it speaks to me, not because i was trying to "Self-aggrandize".

[Don]

I don't think that the concept of identity can be overemphasized when considering why we choose to do certain things, and I think that classical music is a self-aggrandizing activity for this reason. Someone by the name of Don on this forum once said that they barely listened to anything besides Bach's organ music for 2 years; no normal person could ever do this, only the self-obsessed, egotistical intellectual elitist, who probably isn't actually that clever, hence having a greater need for self-aggrandizement.

Hey, that's me!  Good to see that my words are not quickly forgotten, even by a guy who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Allow me to set the lad straight.  I listened to Bach's organ music so much because of the great enjoyment I received from doing so.  When the marginal returns started to dissipate, I ventured forth toward other composers.  

[Don]

Why do we listen to this music? I love it, most of the time. But I do still feel guilty that I am engaging in something pretentious and insincere on occasion.

Then you have a problem; it sure isn't the music.  Stop thinking and start enjoying what you love.

[Don]

uh...no, i hardly ever mention to my friends that i am into classical music, i listen to classical music because it speaks to me, not because i was trying to "Self-aggrandize".

I believe you.  Michel just had a burning desire to write a few paragraphs.

[mahlertitan]

Therefore, if we take for a minute that this is the case, that music is all "fake", then why do we want to hear it? Is it a tool, however unreal, that is pleasant and clever that just plays with our emotions? But if that is the case, why do we in the first instance consider ourself emotional beings, capable of that profundity? Why do we listen to Mahler, and think we as inidviduals are intelligent enough to interpret it? And by this I mean not unlocking a secret code that requires brainpower, but the understanding that you yourself understand emotions and feelings to a level were you can respond and relate to something very complex.

Personally, i had never tried to interpret Mahler, in fact i seldom interpret anything, the one quality that i like classical music so much is because it's abstract, it can't be put into words.

[Mark]

... I listen to classical music because it speaks to me, not because I'm trying to "self-aggrandize".

Because I'm busy (and thus have no time for a lengthy rebuttal of the OP), I'm gonna let MT speak for me. See quote above.

[bhodges]

Then you have a problem; it sure isn't the music.  Stop thinking and start enjoying what you love.

No time for a lengthy reply here, either, but this says it perfectly fine. 

--Bruce

[Que]

As if anybody out there would have the faintest interest in how "grand" we all are by appreciating classical music (or enjoying art in general).

Michel, you obviously hang around with the wrong people - the kind that thinks they are really something by faking an appreciation for classical music/art. I wouldn't identify myself with them, if I were you.

Q

[orbital]

Why do we listen to this music? I love it, most of the time. But I do still feel guilty that I am engaging in something pretentious and insincere on occasion.

Why only on this particular occasion? How sincere do you think you are in any of life's endevours, and how sure can you be that you are  

I don't think that this is a subject concerning classical music only. It kind of applies to all aspects of life.

If we enlarge the playing field, I think that we are all playing a role, knowingly or not.
When I think about it hard enough it becomes so clear that whenever you have something to say about anything, all you are doing is actually saying something about yourself. In a way all communication is nothing more than talking about yourself. For example by posting this topic what you are actually telling us is what kind of a person you are. What you are really saying is that you are a person who thinks about things. But this, then, renders all topic subjects useless because each topic conversation and words spent become to be besides the point. The point is to talk about yourself and the topics are just tools to deliver that.  

[BachQ]

Stop thinking and start enjoying what you love.

Wait ........ we're supposed to enjoy the music we listen to?

[karlhenning]

In all seriousness, what goes through our head when we listen to something either from the ivory, upper class tower of baroque music, or the tormented, quasi intellectual sounds of the romantic period?

Scenario A: Why isn't this in the key of D Minor?

Scenario B: Is this in D Minor enough?

[Kullervo]

In all seriousness, what goes through our head when we listen to something either from the ivory, upper class tower of baroque music, or the tormented, quasi intellectual sounds of the romantic period?

Could you categorically state what it is that make it "quasi intellectual"?

What do we get from it? How many of us listen to it because it merely reinforces our desired identity? (ie. someone clever?)

You don't mean we or us. You mean I and me.

How many of us, if we are honest, can admit that objectively, there is no difference between Beethoven and the Beatles but only our subjective response to it and interpretation of its relative importance in history?

Do you really expect an answer to this? Seems to me you are just trying to be polemic.

One possible answer is that we do all this because we want a piece of their legitimacy - a piece of their reputation and intelligence so that when people ask what you listen to, you tell them Brahms and you expect a certain response, you get pigeoned in the "clever" category, a category you'd like to broadcast.  And when you listen to it, you think you are getting nourished with the same genius that wrote it.

Again, here you mean I, not we.

I don't think that the concept of identity can be overemphasized when considering why we choose to do certain things, and I think that classical music is a self-aggrandizing activity for this reason. Someone by the name of Don on this forum once said that they barely listened to anything besides Bach's organ music for 2 years; no normal person could ever do this, only the self-obsessed, egotistical intellectual elitist, who probably isn't actually that clever, hence having a greater need for self-aggrandizement.

Hoo, boy. I'm not touching that with a barge pole.

[karlhenning]

Someone by the name of Don on this forum once said that they barely listened to anything besides Bach's organ music for 2 years; no normal person could ever do this . . . .

Michel, you are mistaking [what you cannot imagine yourself able to do] with [what is necessarily abnormal].

[Tancata]

....because there couldn't possibly be extra-musical reasons for listening to other kinds of music ...

[Michel]

uh...no, i hardly ever mention to my friends that i am into classical music, i listen to classical music because it speaks to me, not because i was trying to "Self-aggrandize".

It is precisely the speaking to ME part, that forms the SELF part of aggrandizement....

Do you really expect an answer to this? Seems to me you are just trying to be polemic.

Yes I do expect an answer, it is at the heart of why I think we are all elitists. And on your others points about me and I, stop talking rubbish - there is behaviour exhibited daily on this forum that highlights that much of what we do is nourishment of our desired " intelligent" self. By quasi intellectual I simply mean as I stated in the original post: a state of mind we have that assumes to the self that we are capable of experiecing and apprecaiting profound emotions. I am not saying the music is in itself quasi intellectual, other than the fact that it is probably all insincere, though brilliant, as I argued.

It feels profound, no doubt, it is beautiful, no doubt, it does of course speak to us in ways in which words cannot describe, but the question becomes, why do we choose to experience that over another pleasure? Why do we pick up a book, rather than play on a playstation? I think the reason is self-aggrandizement.

[71 dB]

I listen to music I like and enjoy. I like many musical styles from new age and pop to breakbeat and classical. About 40 % of the music I listen to is considered cultivated, another 40 % decadent and the rest 20 % neutral. 

[Don]

Yes I do expect an answer, it is at the heart of why I think we are all elitists. And on your others points about me and I, stop talking rubbish - there is behaviour exhibited daily on this forum that highlights that much of what we do is nourishment of our desired " intelligent" self. By quasi intellectual I simply mean as I stated in the original post: a state of mind we have that assumes to the self that we are capable of experiecing and apprecaiting profound emotions. I am not saying the music is in itself quasi intellectual, other than the fact that it is probably all insincere, though brilliant, as I argued.

It feels profound, no doubt, it is beautiful, no doubt, it does of course speak to us in ways in which words cannot describe, but the question becomes, why do we choose to experience that over another pleasure? Why do we pick up a book, rather than play on a playstation? I think the reason is self-aggrandizement.

You're just talking nonsense.  Snap out of it!  You deserve better.

[Kullervo]

Why do we pick up a book, rather than play on a playstation? I think the reason is self-aggrandizement.

You're a fucking comedian!